birth control issues - engaged couple

[LovingMother]

Loving Mother,


I DO appreciate your views and I also believe you have much understanding of this subject.

But why must scriputre address the specific morality of abstaining from sex for 3-5 days? I simply do not believe that the scriptures either left out references like this or condemned this type of behaivor.

You quote scripture that seems to support my point that abstainance is moral!

People using NFP are having as much sex as people who are not.

If married people must have the opprotunity every day to have sex for their marriage to be biblical than in actuality non of us have biblical marriages.

I have never met anyone that has retreated to the point of claiming that periodic abstainance is the lynchpin that invalidates NFP. If periodic abstainance is "against" scripture or Gods plan for marriage than it would follow that periodic abstainance is morally impermissable. Yet you stated that you believe that NFP is moral.

You must reavaluate, or am I wrong.

Scripture does not have to support an act to make it morally permissable. Yet this is what many people say to me "where do I find it in scripture?"
Where do you find scriptural references to telephones, the internet, plastic surgery, deforestation, pollution etc...? We must use reason and logic which guides our free will.

The Fireman

I am assuming that this is in reference to my response to Rising_Suns. In that, I wasn't making reference to NFP or periodic abstinance being immoral. I was referring to Rising_Suns argument that we should be disciplined in our marriages and not give into desire of the flesh and to satisfy our mechanical desires. Scripture does state that, with mutual consent, the couple can separate for a time, but we are to come back together becaue of our mechanical desire so that Satan will not use it to tempt us.

 

[The Fireman]

Exactly, then periodic abstainance is not only morally permissable but it is also biblicly permissable. According to your logic and mine.

Thanks,

The Fireman

 

[Fireman's Wife]

You yourself excluded women on HBC. My signs are very unpredictable when present at all. I am very comfortable with my ability to recognise my signs when they are present, but they are extremely unpredictable and have proven to be a poor indicator of my fertility. This isn't just my own view. I don't claim to be a professional, so I seek out the advice of professionals. Even NFP trainers will admit that there are many women for which NFP simply does not work.

Of course, women on HBC would usually not have fertile signs because they are in fact usually not fertile, except the catch is that they do have fertile signs when the pill "slips up" and doesn't function as it is intended. In that case they would have fertile signs although they would most likely not be observing them and would therefore miss the signs. I am trying hard to be precise and I do not mind answering questions about my post, but I really cannot be expected to put a disclaimer on every statement I make. If the people who read this are following along they know that I have already given that exclusion in prior post.

I really am not quite sure of what you mean by "unpredictable". There is, in most methods of NFP, no predictions being made. However, there are a few, of the many observations that can be made, that HAVE to be present or the woman cannot concieve and thus would be infertile. So if even those signs are missing, among the other signs that can vary, then you could reasonably question whether the woman would need to see a physician as to the cause of her infertility. But becoming pregnant would not be an issue, precisely the opposite.

No, the people who train others in the use of NFP will not say that "for many women NFP simply does not work" because that is not true. One of the first things I was told when I began to learn about NFP was that "NFP can be used by any woman". Now, in a previous post, I have given a hypothetical example of a woman who could not use NFP. I am still saying that NFP can be tailored to be used by women with all types of medical conditions. There are certain observations that you did not list in your previous post so I am assuming there are some methods of NFP you have not used. I do not expect you to try them and report back, but can you at least conceed that while the methods you have tried did not work for you, there are methods you have not tried?

Further, I understand that you are comfortable with your ability to make observations when the observations were present. I did not intend to question your ability. I thought that you questioned your ability. You have made the correction.

Fireman's Wife

 

[Fireman's Wife]

No, she wasn't sure. I did just a tidbit of reading since I spoke with her. Most of the liquid chlorophyl on the market has a nutrition label and I have yet to find one that lists iron, but the midwives insist it works anyway. One of them related it to green leafy veggies and said that it is the chlorophyl in the veggies that makes them such a great source of iron. The liquid chlorophyl, the midwife says, just packs a better punch than the veggies because it concentrates the chlorophyl. I don't know and I am having trouble finding a good source to back it up, but so far I haven't run into any information that would indicate that it would hurt to try, so I think I will give it a try.

Thanks for the info! I think I will check into it and find out more. I appreciate the advice.

 

[LovingMother]

Exactly, then periodic abstainance is not only morally permissable but it is also biblicly permissable. According to your logic and mine.

Thanks,

The Fireman

Yes, absolutely!

 

[LovingMother]

Of course, women on HBC would usually not have fertile signs because they are in fact usually not fertile, except the catch is that they do have fertile signs when the pill "slips up" and doesn't function as it is intended. In that case they would have fertile signs although they would most likely not be observing them and would therefore miss the signs. I am trying hard to be precise and I do not mind answering questions about my post, but I really cannot be expected to put a disclaimer on every statement I make. If the people who read this are following along they know that I have already given that exclusion in prior post.

I really am not quite sure of what you mean by "unpredictable". There is, in most methods of NFP, no predictions being made. However, there are a few, of the many observations that can be made, that HAVE to be present or the woman cannot concieve and thus would be infertile. So if even those signs are missing, among the other signs that can vary, then you could reasonably question whether the woman would need to see a physician as to the cause of her infertility. But becoming pregnant would not be an issue, precisely the opposite.

No, the people who train others in the use of NFP will not say that "for many women NFP simply does not work" because that is not true. One of the first things I was told when I began to learn about NFP was that "NFP can be used by any woman". Now, in a previous post, I have given a hypothetical example of a woman who could not use NFP. I am still saying that NFP can be tailored to be used by women with all types of medical conditions. There are certain observations that you did not list in your previous post so I am assuming there are some methods of NFP you have not used. I do not expect you to try them and report back, but can you at least conceed that while the methods you have tried did not work for you, there are methods you have not tried?

Further, I understand that you are comfortable with your ability to make observations when the observations were present. I did not intend to question your ability. I thought that you questioned your ability. You have made the correction.

Fireman's Wife

In my experience, NFP trainers do concede that there are some for which it does not work and, to my knowledge, I have tried all of the methods possible. I simply didn't list them all because I didn't feel that it was necessary to do so.

By unpredictable, I mean that my body may issue a sign of fertility that is a false marker. NFP uses signs of fertility to predict times when a woman is most fertile. My issue is not hormonal, but neurological, and, the best way I can explain it is that my body does not communicate with itself well. For example, I can feel like I have a terrible gash on my arm when in reality I have no such wound. I feel the pain and my body may even have other indicators that say there is a wound there, but there just isn't one there. Just as my body indicated that there was a wound, my body can indicate times of fertility when I am, in actuality not fertile. Many professionals were very boggled by this until we discovered the problem was neurological. Since my body shows false indicators, there simply is no way to read my signs and be able to trust them. They are completely unpredictable. I have gotten pregnant without known signs of fertility and I have not gotten pregnant when signs of fertility were present. NFP only works when your signs of fertility are predictable and reliable.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

In my experience, NFP trainers do concede that there are some for which it does not work and, to my knowledge, I have tried all of the methods possible. I simply didn't list them all because I didn't feel that it was necessary to do so.

By unpredictable, I mean that my body may issue a sign of fertility that is a false marker. NFP uses signs of fertility to predict times when a woman is most fertile. My issue is not hormonal, but neurological, and, the best way I can explain it is that my body does not communicate with itself well. For example, I can feel like I have a terrible gash on my arm when in reality I have no such wound. I feel the pain and my body may even have other indicators that say there is a wound there, but there just isn't one there. Just as my body indicated that there was a wound, my body can indicate times of fertility when I am, in actuality not fertile. Many professionals were very boggled by this until we discovered the problem was neurological. Since my body shows false indicators, there simply is no way to read my signs and be able to trust them. They are completely unpredictable. I have gotten pregnant without known signs of fertility and I have not gotten pregnant when signs of fertility were present. NFP only works when your signs of fertility are predictable and reliable.

I am very sorry that you suffer from this medical condition. I understand that with your medical condition, it would be difficult to trust your bodies signs and symptoms, regardless of which system of your body you are dealing with. I feel if I go any further publicly with questions or suggested alternatives, it would be too intrusive. The only follow up statement that I will make would be in general to anyone interested, and certainly I would not expect you, Loving Mother, to report back any personal experience in this area. I would just say that cervical checks are very reliable for women who have difficulties with some of the other observation methods. The cervix softens and opens at the time of fertility. This has to happen or the spermatazoon cannot pass through the cervix to reach the awaiting egg in the fallopian tube, near the ovary. So for some women, who have problems relying on other signs, this may be an alternative that they would want to try.

Fireman's Wife

 

[LovingMother]

We are going to have to agree to disagree then. The cervical method is a well known method used in NFP and is still an unreliable indicator for me. My stance will continue to be that NFP does not work for everybody and I do not believe that it defies the Bible nor is it immoral to use a condom or other non-abortive method of birth control.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

We are going to have to agree to disagree then. The cervical method is a well known method used in NFP and is still an unreliable indicator for me. My stance will continue to be that NFP does not work for everybody and I do not believe that it defies the Bible nor is it immoral to use a condom or other non-abortive method of birth control.

I mentioned the cervical check not to suggest this is something you have not tried but because it has not been mentioned except by me in one other post, unless I have missed something. I think that there are some other people reading our dialogue, judging from some PM's I have recieved, so I wanted to make mention of it since it has not really been discused.Yes, it is a well known observation of NFP.


So, it has come down to this...I always knew it would. LOL! I am certainly O.K. with agreeing to disagree. My stance will be that NFP can work for any women...except L M. (I am smiling in a nice way.) I must remain firm in my belief that any form of artificial contraception is immoral to use for all the reasons I have listed in previous post.


That said, I would like to thank you for the lively dialogue and I hope to meet you in other threads. I'm betting we might have enough in common to argue on the same side sometime! In my eyes, you remain a "forum friend" and I am adding you to my "buddy list".



Fireman's Wife

 

[LovingMother]

I mentioned the cervical check not to suggest this is something you have not tried but because it has not been mentioned except by me in one other post, unless I have missed something. I think that there are some other people reading our dialogue, judging from some PM's I have recieved, so I wanted to make mention of it since it has not really been discused.Yes, it is a well known observation of NFP.


So, it has come down to this...I always knew it would. LOL! I am certainly O.K. with agreeing to disagree. My stance will be that NFP can work for any women...except L M. (I am smiling in a nice way.) I must remain firm in my belief that any form of artificial contraception is immoral to use for all the reasons I have listed in previous post.


That said, I would like to thank you for the lively dialogue and I hope to meet you in other threads. I'm betting we might have enough in common to argue on the same side sometime! In my eyes, you remain a "forum friend" and I am adding you to my "buddy list".



Fireman's Wife

Was that an eyeroll I detected? LOL Just kidding!

Yes, I am sure there are plenty of topics we agree on and I consider you a friend here as well. Thank you!

 

[LadyBird]

I think that it jus depends from couple to couple. SOme may feel that God wants them to use birth control....others don't. Do what is best for you and what you believe. Pray a lot about it and discuss it with your fiancee.

 

[lil_god_lova]

God allows everything to be created am i right?
So he allowed birth control to be made.... This isue is a like the cancer issue. God could heal your cancer, but he helped make medicines which he likes you to take, as he could heal you through a different device.
Maybe God would like you to use birth control, rather tahn just relying onhim to stop you getting pregnant.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

God allows everything to be created am i right?

No, you are not right. God is the only one who creates. Creating would indicate making something from nothing. However, following your logic, I would suppose that you could say God "allows" many material items to be made. This however, doesn't mean that he wants us to use all of them. So your reasoning that if God allows something to be made it can be used without regard to right or wrong doesn't hold water. It is a nice thought, and it would certainly make things alot easier for us humans to just assume that if something is at our disposal, it must be sanctioned by God. But the fact is that God created us with minds to decern right from wrong. Regardless of how you feel about the subject of this thread you must recognize this or you can go no further in thinking about most any moral delemia you come across.

Fireman's Wife

 

[GirlForChrist]

My boyfriend and I talked about this...to get eachothers insight on it before we get married and have sexual relations. Considering the fact that me MAY/ or may NOT get married in 2005 I think it would be a good for he and I not to use some sort of BC...but I dont fill strongly about the pill cause it can cause problems with the body...so we'll be opting for condoms

 

[LadyBird]

There is no right or wrong answer. It just depends on what is right for you...like I have said before.

 

[LN]

Whoa - I just skimmed all 10 pages and will give my experience.

I've been married for 2 years and have been using FAM (family awareness method). That's like NFP but using condoms during the fertile period.

I love it. I researched the pill and determined it was not for me for a variety of reasons.

Here is the link to the book:

www.tcoyf.org

To do FAM or NFP, you HAVE to read the book. Otherwise, its like driving a car without taking driver's ed. Done correctly, its extremely effective.

Children are a huge financial and emotional responsibility. Some people get married and don't use birth control and just count on getting pregnant when God believes they are ready. And I'm happy for them! Most get pregnant within the first few months. For myself, I own a business that puts myself into contractual agreements up to two years in advance. To get pregnant and not be able to fulfill those contracts would be irresponsible and I would be really putting my clients in a terrible situation. Therefore, a form of birth control is necessary for me.

 

[Jesus-is-the-1]

AMEN!!

i have to side with you a little bit, joyful. we should have complete trust in everything we do, which includes sex. i would have to say that you are on track by saying God's wisdom is infinitely better than ours (if you want to say we even have wisdom).

i think it sounds a little silly to say 'ok now we're ready to have children.' how can you really know? we're all sinful people, how can that be our decision? i certainly wasn't born to my parents who were 'ready', i was most inconvenient. and that doesn't mean anything at all. God will work through anything. you need to realize that in your sexual partnership, that yeah, obviously you might get pregnant, but its not like God doesn't understand that you have waited for marriage to have sex, and He won't repay you for that. God realizes everything you do, which most certainly includes following His commands, and i'm sure he will repay you and bless you because of it. now i'm not saying that that certainly means you won't concieve or anything, but i am extremely confident that the Lord will work out that whatever happens, to be a blessing from your obedience.

we have to have faith and trust that God will bless us accordingly, and also trust that no matter what happens that it is His perfect plan and timing.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

I know other women who have professional responsibilities, quite similar to what was described above, that use NFP without condoms and quite sucessfully. Condoms are not a necessary "back up". NFP is more effective without the use of condoms than it is with the use of condoms because: #1. Some condoms can effect the "quality" of mucus that a woman is observing for fertile signs. #2 When using condoms it can be assumed you are having sex during the fertile period.(risky when trying to avoid pregnancy) When using NFP you are abstaining from sex during the fertile period if in fact you are using NFP to avoid pregnancy. Condoms may give a false sense of security but they are actually more likely to fail than NFP, which has up to 99% effectiveness. Condoms are not that reliable.( I believe it is 86%).

I would pose this question... In reality wouldn't the NFP/condom method of family planning really just be relying on condoms since condoms are used when a woman can in fact become fertile? What would be the reason for using fertility awareness except just to not use condoms during the times when they would make no difference anyhow?

This brings me to another point that I have not mentioned. Condoms can cause men to have some stamina difficulties. I do not want to be too graphic but basically it goes like this. A man using condoms on a regular basis can become a premature ejaculator due to the dulling of sensation when using the condom. The incident (PE) would happen of course when the condom was not used. I am sure this is not the case in all situations but it can happen. With some of the health reasons that so many women give for opting not take hormonal birth control, I question, should they opt for condoms, whether in fact they have taken their husband's sexual health concerns into mind or if in fact they know that this possibility exist?

Fireman's Wife

 

[LN]

In reality wouldn't the NFP/condom method of family planning really just be relying on condoms since condoms are used when a woman can in fact become fertile?

no, because you're not using condoms when you're not fertile

Some condoms can effect the "quality" of mucus that a woman is observing for fertile signs.

mucus is only one of the three signs of fertlity, basal temp being the most prominent

Condoms are not that reliable.( I believe it is 86%).

Condoms have a higher relaibility percentile when used properly. Point taken, it is riskier obviously to have sex with protection during the fertile period. That is an individual choice and all I was doing was providing my experience, which is all I think one can really do.

What would be the reason for using fertility awareness except just to not use condoms during the times when they would make no difference anyhow?

so you're not using condoms all month long.

Condoms can cause men to have some stamina difficulties.

I have not experienced this. If this were the case, there is other options besides condoms.


LN

 

[katelyn]

We are looking into FAM. My husband doesn't like the idea of NFP because of the abstaining period. As it is, we use condoms because of the adverse effects the Pill had on me. Plus I was a little concerned about the moral issue of the Pill, even though most aren't certain on that issue.

With some of the health reasons that so many women give for opting not take hormonal birth control, I question, should they opt for condoms, whether in fact they have taken their husband's sexual health concerns into mind or if in fact they know that this possibility exist?

I don't really appreciate this insinuation. Birth control is an issue that my husband and I approached together. We did try the Pill despite my hesitations, because it seemed the most convenient. After a few months we both agreed it wasn't working out because of the strong effect it had on me. So, we agreed to switch to condoms. If my husband had a problem with it, we would discuss it. Not being on the Pill is not just about me not wanting to suffer any of the consequences of birth control and putting the consequences onto my husband. Every form of birth control can be seen as having a down side. My husband and I like the idea of FAM because the knowledge about my fertility will help us to use condoms the least number of days possible per month, therefore avoiding the possible sexual health problems for my husband.