birth control issues - engaged couple

[LovingMother]

First, you and your fiance have to talk this through with God and come to a decision together, as many here have already said.

Second, if you believe that life begins at fertilization and you don't beleive in abortion, then you should not use any form of abortive birth control. This includes the pill. The pill's primary action is to prevent fertilization, but when it's primary action fails, it also creates an environment that doesn't allow the fertilized egg to adhere to the uteris and causes it to abort.

Finally, I will share with you my own view. I do believe that God opens and closes the womb and I believe that he will do this regardless of whether we use birth control. That is why many women on birth control have become pregnant. I don't see any harm in using non-abortive birth control, such as a condom. If you are using a condom and God wants you to get pregnant, then you are going to get pregnant. If you absolutely don't want to get pregnant, the only 100% method is abstinence. If you are having sex, bc or no bc, always be prepared for the possibility of getting pregnant

 

[Fireman's Wife]

The reason that people become pregnant while using birth control has more to do with user error than God's will. God has willed us to have children. That is why he gave humans fertility. The problem with the "God is bigger than birth control" point of view is that it sounds nice but it does not follow logic. If you say that God's will will happen whether or not you use a condom, then you have to say the same thing about abortifacients, such as the pill. But yet, I think that on this thread most are agreeing that it would be wrong to use an abortifacient. Why would it be wrong if we as humans could not stop God's will? You do not have to look very far to see that all over this world, God's will is not being carried out and that human's are the ones standing in the way of His will. I can stand at the edge of a cliff and say "I am going to jump but if God wants me to live he will keep me from dying.", the result, however, will be the same. I am not saying that God does not work miracles, but he also gives us free will to make our choices and we have to bear the consequences of those choices.

 

[LovingMother]

The reason that people become pregnant while using birth control has more to do with user error than God's will.

Not all women who get pregnant on birth control get that way because they used the method in error.

God has willed us to have children. That is why he gave humans fertility.

I agree, but I believe we are still to be responsible about having children.

The problem with the "God is bigger than birth control" point of view is that it sounds nice but it does not follow logic. If you say that God's will will happen whether or not you use a condom, then you have to say the same thing about abortifacients, such as the pill.

I do say the same thing about the pill and others. Many women on the pill get pregnant, even if they don't miss a pill.

But yet, I think that on this thread most are agreeing that it would be wrong to use an abortifacient. Why would it be wrong if we as humans could not stop God's will? You do not have to look very far to see that all over this world, God's will is not being carried out and that human's are the ones standing in the way of His will.

Becasue, with the free will that God gave us comes responsibility. It would be wrong to shirk that responsibility just because God has the ability to change whatever decision we make.

I can stand at the edge of a cliff and say "I am going to jump but if God wants me to live he will keep me from dying.", the result, however, will be the same. I am not saying that God does not work miracles, but he also gives us free will to make our choices and we have to bear the consequences of those choices.

Exactly! We have that free will and the responsibility to make the best choice possible. If you aren't ready to have a baby, then you try not to have a baby and if God says you're wrong and that you are ready, then he will make it so.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

Not all women who get pregnant on birth control get that way because they used the method in error.

That is not what I said. What I said is that women getting pregnant using artificial contraception has more to do with user error than God's will.

I agree, but I believe we are still to be responsible about having children.

I couldn't agree more.

I do say the same thing about the pill and others.

You are using my quote out of context here. Go back and read the point I am trying to make. Obviously, logic would follow that if you say that "God is bigger than condoms" you have to say that "God is bigger than the pill". I was not saying that you thought otherwise. Where the logic does not flow is when you say that someone should not use the pill because it is an abortifacient. If "God is bigger than the pill" then the abortifacient would never work as an abortifacient, if it is true that abortifacients are in fact against the will of God. There would be no moral problem in using the pill but there would also be no reason to use the pill.

On the other hand, God will is that humans have children.That is why he gave us fertility and a command to multiply. He also gave us a conscience and a brain to use our fertility in a morally acceptable way. Abortifacient contraception and in fact all artificial contraception is against the procreative and unitive meaning of the "marriage act". Natural Family Planning is, in fact, the only morally acceptable means of family planning because the meaning of the "marriage act" is never thwarted as in all other forms of contraception.

Many women on the pill get pregnant, even if they don't miss a pill.

I am a Registered Nurse and well aware of how, physiologically speaking, women get pregnant on the pill. It is almost always user error. I did not suggest that they are missing the pill. But if you follow the directions for taking the pill you should take it at the same exact time everyday. If you are sick, if you are taking antibiotics, if you take certain other medications, if you are overly stressed, if you do not take it at the same time everyday, if you miss and double up the next day or the next or the next...all effect the efficiency of the pill. These considerations are supposed to be information that all women who use the pill are to recieve from their Dr. They are supposed to be warned that if any of these things occur that the pill will not be as effective and thus a "backup" method should also be used, just in case. Many women who use the pill, ignore these warnings and thus when they get pregnant they will say "I never missed a pill" and this will be true but yet it will still be user error.

Becasue, with the free will that God gave us comes responsibility. It would be wrong to shirk that responsibility just because God has the ability to change whatever decision we make.

It is wrong to "shirk" the responsibilities that God has given us humans. But if you say that using the pill is wrong because of it's abortifacient effects and then say that using the pill is O.K. because you should not "shirk" responsibility then I am not following your logic. If the pill has immoral consequnces and we use it anyway because God will stop the immoral consequences from happening, then there is no reason to worry about the immoral consequences because God will stop them, right?

But that is not right, is it? On the other hand, God has given us free will to chose good or evil in all our decisions. If you believe that the pill is evil then you should not use it. Using the pill (or condoms for that matter), and then saying that "If God wills you to have a baby, you will have a baby." is burying your head in the sand and expecting miracles to override your immoral choices. Again it sounds nice but doesn't hold water.

Exactly! We have that free will and the responsibility to make the best choice possible. If you aren't ready to have a baby, then you try not to have a baby and if God says you're wrong and that you are ready, then he will make it so.

I would say that if you have grave reasons (not selfish reasons) for avoiding pregnancy, then you should avoid pregnancy through moral means (i.e. Natural Family Planning). This is assuming that the couple is married. If they are not within marriage then of course, the individuals involved are called to celibacy until such time as they are married, thus in that case, abstinence would be the only morally acceptable means.

Fireman's Wife

 

[LovingMother]

Obviously, logic would follow that if you say that "God is bigger than condoms" you have to say that "God is bigger than the pill". I was not saying that you thought otherwise. Where the logic does not flow is when you say that someone should not use the pill because it is an abortifacient. If "God is bigger than the pill" then the abortifacient would never work as an abortifacient, if it is true that abortifacients are in fact against the will of God. There would be no moral problem in using the pill but there would also be no reason to use the pill.

Just because God can enforce his will doesn't mean that he always does. If He did, then we would have no free will and no responsibility. God is bigger than the pill and can stop the abortifacient but that doesn't mean that he will every time.

On the other hand, God will is that humans have children.That is why he gave us fertility and a command to multiply. He also gave us a conscience and a brain to use our fertility in a morally acceptable way. Abortifacient contraception and in fact all artificial contraception is against the procreative and unitive meaning of the "marriage act". Natural Family Planning is, in fact, the only morally acceptable means of family planning because the meaning of the "marriage act" is never thwarted as in all other forms of contraception.

I agree that any contraception that is abortive shouldn't be used. I also agree that Natural Family Planning is morally acceptable. However, while the vast majority of women may be able to use NFP successfully, not all women's cycles are so predictable. I see nothing wrong with using a non-abortive method of artificial birth control to be responsible about having kids.

But that is not right, is it? On the other hand, God has given us free will to chose good or evil in all our decisions. If you believe that the pill is evil then you should not use it. Using the pill (or condoms for that matter), and then saying that "If God wills you to have a baby, you will have a baby." is burying your head in the sand and expecting miracles to override your immoral choices. Again it sounds nice but doesn't hold water.

I don't believe it is an immoral choice to use a condom as a responsible method for controling birth. I'm simply saying that if God doesn't agree with you then the condom isn't going to stand in His way.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

The sheer volume of unplanned pregnancies is testimony to the fact that having sex makes babies whether you plan on it or not.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

Just because God can enforce his will doesn't mean that he always does. If He did, then we would have no free will and no responsibility. God is bigger than the pill and can stop the abortifacient but that doesn't mean that he will every time.

Just what I have been saying. God is all-powerful but that does not mean that a couple can rely on that fact to save them from the consequences of their immoral choices.

I agree that any contraception that is abortive shouldn't be used. I also agree that Natural Family Planning is morally acceptable. However, while the vast majority of women may be able to use NFP successfully, not all women's cycles are so predictable. I see nothing wrong with using a non-abortive method of artificial birth control to be responsible about having kids.

Again, I am an Registered Nurse and well aware of the physiology of a woman's body. The NFP facts are that almost every woman can use NFP. (An example of a woman who could not, would be a woman with a severe form of mental handicap.) NFP is not the Rhythm Method as you are suggesting. The Rhythm Method is one of many NFP options. I use NFP and have for years with 100% success. I have very irregular cycles.


What's wrong with using artificial non abortifacient contraception (ANAC) is that while the "marriage act" is meant to be open to procreation (not neccessarily procreative but open to it...nothing stoping the act from being procreative) and unitive, when you use ANAC you separate the procreative meaning from the act as God has intended. You do the act incompletely. In other words, you withhold your fertility while still performing the act. When using NFP, the act is not stopped from being open to procreation because an act does not take place during the fertile period if you are trying to avoid pregnancy. Thus no fertility was withheld during the act, because an act did not take place.

I don't believe it is an immoral choice to use a condom as a responsible method for controling birth. I'm simply saying that if God doesn't agree with you then the condom isn't going to stand in His way.

Then why use a condom? It does not follow logic to say that if God wants you to have a baby then you will have a baby regardless of what family planning methods you use. You are double speaking because you said earlier that just because God can impose his will doesn't mean he will. Obviously, sometimes God doesn't "agree" and yet still he doesn't impose his will. This has to include condoms, if you follow your argument. Otherwise you have no basis to say that abortifacient contraceptives are immoral because if God does not "agree" then it would not matter whether we used them or not.

Again, I am not saying that God doesn't perform miracles. Nevertheless, the facts are that people stand in the way of the will of God all the time. And God doesn't "agree" with them and still doesn't use his power to change the consequences of their actions. A married couple wanting to be "responsible" and still follow God's will should be open to procreation in the marriage act. If they have some grave reason that they really need to postpone pregnancy for a while, then they should abstain on the days in which the woman is fertile, but only until the grave reasons for avoiding a pregnancy are remedied. Then they should be praying for God's will, not just assuming it, and every act should be open to procreation. (Again I say "open to procreation" not procreative...obviously because of a womens fertility period only being approximately a few days long, every act cannot be procreative.)



Fireman's Wife

Note...I edited the pronouns in the first paragraph because it was worded in a way that could be taken personal, when I did not intend it that way...Fireman's Wife

 

[LovingMother]

Just what I have been saying. God is all-powerful but that does not mean that you can rely on that fact to save you from the consequences of your immoral choices.

Since I stated that using a condom is not immoral, then this argument is irrelevant to my stance and is simply twisting my view to be wrong based on your own beliefs.

Again, I am an Registered Nurse and well aware of the physiology of a woman's body. The NFP facts are that almost every woman can use NFP. (An example of a woman who could not, would be a woman with a severe form of mental handicap.) NFP is not the Rhythm Method as you are suggesting. The Rhythm Method is one of many NFP options. I use NFP and have for years with 100% success. I have very irregular cycles.

First, I would like to point out that I did not suggest that NFP is the Rythm Method. Proper NFP uses a variety of factors to predict times of fertility, and unfortunately, these predictors do not work the same way for everybody. The example of a woman with a severe mental handicap, while valid, is an extreme one. I think it is fantastic that the NFP Method works for you and I admire you for sticking to it, but it doesn't work for everybody and I think it is wrong to condemn somebody for using another method with responsibility when the method you prefer doesn't work for them.

What's wrong with using artificial non abortifacient contraception (ANAC) is that while the "marriage act" is meant to be open to procreation (not neccessarily procreative but open to it...nothing stoping the act from being procreative) and unitive, when you use ANAC you separate the procreative meaning from the act as God has intended. You do the act incompletely. In other words, you withhold your fertility while still performing the act. When using NFP, the act is not stopped from being open to procreation because an act does not take place during the fertile period if you are trying to avoid pregnancy. Thus no fertility was withheld during the act, because an act did not take place.

This is an extreme view that isn't shared by all. Perhaps you could persuade me with scripture.

Then why use a condom? It does not follow logic to say that if God wants you to have a baby then you will have a baby regardless of what family planning methods you use. You are double speaking because you said earlier that just because God can impose his will doesn't mean he will. Obviously, sometimes God doesn't "agree" and yet still he doesn't impose his will. This has to include condoms, if you follow your argument. Otherwise you have no basis to say that abortifacient contraceptives are immoral because if God does not "agree" then it would not matter whether we used them or not.

Again, you are twisting my words. Abortive methods of birth control are wrong not because they are birth control but because they are abortive. Abortion is the taking of a life and scripture tells us not to kill.

 

[The Fireman]

Wrong again Loving Mother,

Abortifacient birth control is morally impermissable precisely because it is artificial birth control.

Artificial birth control violates Gods plan for the marriage act by thwarting the act that is meant to be both unitive and open to procreation.

ABC can also be morally impermissable because it is an abortifacient.

The primary cause of the moral impermissability of all artificial birth control is that it violates the unitive and procreative aspects of the conjugal union. Only that some forms of artificial birth control are also abortive doesn't change the immorality of all forms of ABC based on the primary causation of their moral impermissability, which is the actual thwarting of the marriag acts true end (being both unitive and open to procreation).

The Fireman

 

[LovingMother]

Wrong again Loving Mother,

Abortifacient birth control is morally impermissable precisely because it is artificial birth control.

Artificial birth control violates Gods plan for the marriage act by thwarting the act that is meant to be both unitive and open to procreation.

ABC can also be morally impermissable because it is an abortifacient.

The primary cause of the moral impermissability of all artificial birth control is that it violates the unitive and procreative aspects of the conjugal union. Only that some forms of artificial birth control are also abortive doesn't change the immorality of the other forms based on the primary causation of there moral impermissability.

The Fireman

And in my previous post I asked for scripture to back up this view. Does scripture limit sexual relations between a husband and wife to "the procreative aspects of the conjugal union"?

 

[The Fireman]

Loving Mother

Scripture doesn't address specifically MOST moral questions of our time.

I am a Catholic. In the Catholic Church we use Holy Scriputre, Tradition, and the teaching of the church for our moral discernment. I do not expect you to do the same. But for at least 397 years after the death of our beloved Christ the Holy Scriptures had not yet been put together until the Catholic Church did so. So what do you think everyone did for moral discernment before then?

The Bible is no doubt God's word but lets not get hung up on believing that if its not in the bible then we don't want to talk about it.

The Fireman

 

[joyinchrist]

I wonder about this issue a lot.... i take the pill now for health reasons, but when i get married and begin to have intercourse, should i stop???? i havent a clue... but thankfully i'm not even close to that

 

[LovingMother]

Loving Mother

Scripture doesn't address specifically MOST moral questions of our time.

I am a Catholic. In the Catholic Church we use Holy Scriputre, Tradition, and the teaching of the church for our moral discernment. I do not expect you to do the same. But for at least 397 years after the death of our beloved Christ the Holy Scriptures had not yet been put together until the Catholic Church did so. So what do you think everyone did for moral discernment before then?

The Bible is no doubt God's word but lets not get hung up on believing that if its not in the bible then we don't want to talk about it.

The Fireman

I won't get into the reasons why I do not place my faith in the Catholic Church. That is a topic for another thread. Morality is subjective. Even atheists can have morality and disagree with your view. The Bible is the foundation of my morality and belief. I don't have a problem if you disagree with me, but don't tell me I am wrong simply because I don't agree with the views of your particular church. If I were Catholic, I would be wrong because I would be going against the foundation of my moral beliefs. However, I am not Catholic, so I am not bound by the beliefs of your church.

 

[IslandBreeze]

.
Consider for a moment that maybe God wants certain individuals to become pregnant but there is no way they can because they say "no" to God through their use of artificial contraception much like we all sometimes do in other aspects of our life. (Please, do not say "God is bigger than contraception". I have heard this before but yet it holds no logic. God is bigger than a lot of evils that he allows to happen.)

Whoa. I think it's very dangerous to make generalized statements like yours. I do not believe that birth control is an evil for one, and secondly, I don't believe that God wants me to have a child right now. That is based on MY relationship with God, and issues that my husband and I have worked out with HIM. I think it's wrong of you to make assumptions about other people's lives (not to mention questioning their relationship with God) just because you don't believe in certain types of birth control.

 

[IslandBreeze]

I'd also like to ask a question regarding NFP.

If it's so "moral," then please explain how it does not go against the following verse: 1 Cornithians 7:5 "Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

I would also appreciate it if the comments about those who use the pill are "immoral" and "evil" would stop.

 

[The Fireman]

Loving Mother did I say you were wrong or are you somewhat sensitive to dialogue that you don't agree with?

I don't play by your rules and you don't play by mine. That obvious difference is all that I was writing about. Lighten up!

About the passage in Corinthians, what do you think NFPers do during the abstinance period?

And who in this thread said anything about evil people?

You people need to relax!

The Fireman

 

[The Fireman]

Cammie those last two statements were directed to you. It's obviuos that you do not understand NFP or artificial birth control in the least. Even if you did and disagreed with me you wouldn't ask those questions with such obvious answers.

Go to the thread entitled Contraception and the Catholic Church and read the WHOLE thing and it will answer some of your questions.

I really don't feel like repeating it here again. I am not asking anyone to accept the teachings just understand them as they are taught.

It does concern me when people justify the use of abortifacient birth control, because they believe that it was the answer to a prayer. And ALL hormonal birth control is Abortifacient. There is no debate on that fact, check the insert to your birth control pill or shot.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Cammie those last two statements were directed to you. It's obviuos that you do not understand NFP or artificial birth control in the least.

Thanks for insulting my intelligence. I appreciate it. Please don't make assumptions about my knowledge (or supposed lack thereof) about birth control.

Go to the thread entitled Contraception and the Catholic Church and read the WHOLE thing and it will answer some of your questions.

I'm not Catholic, so the Catholic church's stance on birth control is irrelevant to me and my life. The scripture I pointed out spoke against abstinance in marriage, and from what I know about NFP, it involves abstinance during fertile times.

I really don't feel like repeating it here again. I am not asking anyone to accept the teachings just understand them as they are taught.

That's fine, but that is no excuse to point out and berate those who disagree with you.

It does concern me when people justify the use of abortifacient birth control, because they believe that it was the answer to a prayer. And ALL hormonal birth control is Abortifacient. There is no debate on that fact, check the insert to your birth control pill or shot.

That's fine if you have been convicted on the matter. My husband and I have not, and will continue to use hormonal birth control until we feel God tells us otherwise. It is a personal and individual choice, afterall.

 

[LovingMother]

Loving Mother did I say you were wrong or are you somewhat sensitive to dialogue that you don't agree with?

I don't play by your rules and you don't play by mine. That obvious difference is all that I was writing about. Lighten up!

About the passage in Corinthians, what do you think NFPers do during the abstinance period?

And who in this thread said anything about evil people?

You people need to relax!

The Fireman

You did directly say that I was wrong in post #29. You and your wife both stated that my choice to use a condom is an immoral one and I felt the need to defend myself on the grounds that it is not immoral. Now you are saying that you were simply stating the obvious in that we have differnces? It felt more like an attack rather than a simple statement of anything obvious. Forgive me if that is not how you meant it, but that is how it came across to me and apparently I am not the only one who felt that way.

I have given birth to three children in 2 1/2 years and I feel that I am not ready to get pregnant again. Should I deny my husband sex during my fertile days? Besides that, the NFP method does not work for me. Should I deny my husband sex indefinately because I am not ready for another baby? I'm exhausted. I'm procreating and I do want more kids, but for now I need a break. My options are to deny my husband sex, which would go against scripture, or use another form of birth control that does work for me that does not go against scripture. I don't believe that choosing to be responsible and obeying scripture is immoral.

 

[Fireman's Wife]

Since I stated that using a condom is not immoral, then this argument is irrelevant to my stance and is simply twisting my view to be wrong based on your own beliefs.

I have not twisted your words. I have used your words to support my argument. Your belief about condoms has nothing to do with my statement that "God is all powerful but that does not mean that you can rely on that fact to save you from the consequences of your immoral choices." I did not dirrect this comment toward you, rather I was making a statement with relevence to anyone and everyone that God being "bigger" than "whatever" does not negate our duty to make moral choices.

First, I would like to point out that I did not suggest that NFP is the Rythm Method. Proper NFP uses a variety of factors to predict times of fertility, and unfortunately, these predictors do not work the same way for everybody.

You did make this suggestion when you asserted that some womens bodies are not predictable. This is not a requirement of many forms of NFP, though it is to use a form of NFP called the Rhythm Method. I understand that womens bodies can work differently. But the NFP facts are that NFP can be "tailored to fit" almost any woman.

I think it is fantastic that the NFP Method works for you and I admire you for sticking to it, but it doesn't work for everybody and I think it is wrong to condemn somebody for using another method with responsibility when the method you prefer doesn't work for them.

I have not condemned anyone. I thought we were having a dialogue. You have been able to express your views on which artificial contraceptives fit your definition of moral. Am I not allowed to express my views on the same subject.

This is an extreme view that isn't shared by all. Perhaps you could persuade me with scripture.

O.K. first...I am not sure what "view" you are talking about. If you are saying that my view that the marriage act is both unitive and procreative then let me just say that this is hardly an extreme view. It is a teaching of the Catholic Church, the largest church in the world, with over a BILLION members. To say that this view somehow extreme is interesting considering that view is held by millions and millions of faithful Catholics.

Second, you want scripture...Ps 127:3-5--Children too are a gift from God... Gen 30:22--God remembers Rachael and gives her a son... Gen 9:7--Be fertile and multiply... Gen 38:8-10--Onan is struck dead by God himself for having an incomplete act with his sister-in-law by wasting his seed on the ground (withdraw--Is God bigger than withdraw?) Notice he refused to give his fertility to his sister-in-law but yet still had relations with her.

I offer the scripture to satisfy your request. The Bible itself states that not all truths are in Holy Scripture. These are truths of Sacred Tradition and Church teaching. Strictly from a historical perspective, I have 2000 years of Tradition and Church teaching to back me up. I also place the burden on my conscience as I am sure you do also. I know that you are not Catholic, so the Tradition and teachings that I speak of probably mean little or nothing to you, but I say it so you will know that we are not on the same page, but yet I am not pulling this out of thin air.

Again, you are twisting my words. Abortive methods of birth control are wrong not because they are birth control but because they are abortive. Abortion is the taking of a life and scripture tells us not to kill.

Again, I was not twisting your words. I was pointing out the inconsistancies in your logic. You have however, changed your logic now, so I will respond accordingly. I agree, abortafacient contraception is wrong, but not just because it can cause abortions but also because the very nature of the marriage act is to be unitive and open to procreation. When a couple uses this gift with contraception, it is like saying to God "I want to use your wonderful gift, but I don't want the fertility part of the gift, so I'll just block that part of it and take the sensual pleasure only, Thank You." The difference when you use NFP is that, if for grave reasons (not selfish reasons) a couple feels that they should avoid a pregnancy, then they can abstain during the fertile period which is for a relatively short period of time. (which BTW abstinence, for a short time, is permissable in Holy Scripture.) A marriage act has not taken place and thus no thwarting of the nature of the act has occured. When the couple comes to a place in their lives where there is no longer a grave reason for avoiding pregnancy, they can quit abstaining during the fertile period and go for it !

(I edited this slightly after reading it again. I think I got a little carried away with myself.