Bikinies

[Niels]

[BIBLE="1 John 2:15-17] Do not love the [URL="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:16&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R72"]R72[/URL] world nor the things in the world. If R73 anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the R74 lust of the flesh and the R75 lust of the eyes and the R76 boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The R77 world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does R78 the will of God lives forever.[/bible]

This goes to show that Christian women who are concerned with what God has asked us to do, this is what I meant by not conforming to the world. Likewise, Men have responsibility also.

[BIBLE="Matthew 5:28"]
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with R151 lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [/bible]

Therefore a man also must be responsible for his actions. Especially if a woman is dressing modestly and appropriately then he is definitely in the wrong.


So women we can do our parts by not wearing bikinis and men can do their part by trying a little more hard to avoid particularly lustful places, and trying to avert their eyes a little more. We are all sinners, all at fault. So lets' both do our best to make this situation better.

But lust is strong, unrestrained, passionate desire. A man who truly lusts after a woman has full intent on having sex with her. The bible is merely pointing out that the intent may as well be the action (probably because every action starts in the mind/heart). Most guys, even those who openly gawk at women, don't actually plan to have sex with those women. We Christians are too quick to call something lust... so much so that the meaning of the word is lost on us.

Anyway, would you prefer all pretty, attractive female qualities to be banished from Christian women? ... so that the Christian guys are more interested in 'bad girls'? I'm serious. A bikini is about sun and surf, the beach etc. Even if a guy admires how a woman looks as such, it's in a fairly wholesome way. Imagine, if you will, that these woman have good moral character, and demonstrate that they like those qualities in the guys they date. They can have a positive influence, especially considering that the guys may try to impress them in a socially constructive way. Of course, some of us Christians want all attractive outfits etc. to be banished... which makes Christian guys look elsewhere (the wrong crowd) to find a girl who doesn't mind being female, all the while Christian women become ashamed of their bodies... so that many feel the need to rebel (turn their backs on God) in order to assert their femininity, which is just wrong.

That said, I hope my future wife is on a beach somewhere, wearing a bikini if she wants to.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

I didn't say there weren't. In fact, that was the opinion I was trying to put across - you can wear a bikini without it being 2 triangles with string. I actually seem to remember posting exactly that.



I realise this. I don't go around wearing micro-mini skirts as I know what kind of reaction they get - I'm not saying I'm model material, but I don't like the way that most guys react when they see a girls legs. I don't like getting wolf-whistled at when I'm walking down the street, and it has actually affected how I dress. I hardly ever wear skirts because of the reaction they provoke and I can't be doing with the hassle of being embarrassed.



What if he was thinking about me, having just seen me in jeans and a t-shirt? I can't help that anymore than I can stop him masturbating, no matter what I wear. If he's going to do it, he's going to do it - that's his conviction to have with God, not mine. Do I want him to touch and think of me? No. But can I stop him doing that act? Of course not. A girl could provoke masturbation in a guy wearing a pair of sweats just as easily as she could wearing a modest bikini and, in fact, a one-piece bathing suit.



I don't wear a bikini on the beach to make anyone's life more difficult, how rude! I wear it because I choose to wear it FOR ME. If someone's going to find another person attractive, they're going to regardless of what they're wearing. I realise that this may be more likely in a bikini, but again, the issue of lust is theirs, not mine to deal with.

For example, if my BF had a problem, although I'd help him as much as I could, I can't actually solve that problem for him. It's down to him to have some one-on-one time with God and sort it out between the two of them. Yes, I'd support him, but I can't help the problems that he might have.

If it became a real problem for me to wear a bikini, for example, I probably wouldn't continue to wear one around him, but that's only if I know about it, how can I stop doing something that I don't know for definite has an adverse reaction on *some* guys, *some* of the time????



When did I say it did????

People, we live in a corrupt world. I can't help how some people think. I know Christians, in this case, Christian women, have to take responsibility for how they dress - like one person said, "Big surprise, men gawk at girls in bikini's".

Some people, in my opinion can take it to the extreme. If you don't think God wants you wearing a bikini, don't wear one - that's YOUR conviction. Don't judge someone if they don't have the same conviction. We are called to love one another, warts and all, even if others may be "misguided" - but their "misguidance" is only according to YOUR conviction, it might not be misguidance to them.

Not everyone respects women/people the way they should, I realise this, believe me. But, we have a God that can change that. Why aren't we praying for the people of the world instead of arguing about some girl wearing a bikini???

Have you only just realised that not everyone is as good as they should be? I can't believe that would be true. If you don't like seeing a girl wearing a bikini, don't go to the beach. If you do go, and see a girl wearing a bikini that you find hard to deal with, LOOK AWAY!!!! How hard is it, really????

I don't know, I'm not trying to change what you think, that would be impossible. Take it or leave it, that's my opinion. Doesn't bother me if you don't agree.

My comments are for the community as a whole, if some don't seem applicable to you it is because they aren't. The part of your post that I felt I needed to address was that you felt you had no responsibility if a guy was going to lust after you. If you're dressed modestly then I would agree. But, then I can't leave that comment of yours out there for other Christian women/girls to read and think that they have no responsibility.

This is not addressed to you: Once again it doesn't make any difference what non-Christian women are doing. There may be a beach filled with Dorito-clad women. This thread is directed towards what the Christian woman is wearing.

 

[Alenci]

And while we're on the topic...

"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl."
Job 31:1

If lust was truly about intent, wouldn't he have made a covenant with his heart or mind? "Full intent to have sex with someone" is a conscious decision.

Ah... but it is primarily the eyes that cause men to fall into lust.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away."
Matthew 5:27-29

Don't men have fantasies even while not looking at women? Isn't it therefore significant that Jesus mentions this specifically?

Lust includes the enjoyment of gazing on the sexual attributes of women (other than a man's wife).

 

[Deliberatetourist]

I find that funny coming from you. Especially after all your comments about sexual attraction in another thread.

You are such a punk. Time to grow up Maynard. If you are having trouble with it on your own take a trip to SE Asia. I know a whole lineup of people who could help you with the process.

 

[Alenci]

Yoohoo, mods? Anyone want to review this thread...?

 

[Alenci]

I can understand why SoC is upset from the other thread, but the two of you are a bit out of line here...

 

[ByLoveAndGrace]

But lust is strong, unrestrained, passionate desire. A man who truly lusts after a woman has full intent on having sex with her. The bible is merely pointing out that the intent may as well be the action (probably because every action starts in the mind/heart). Most guys, even those who openly gawk at women, don't actually plan to have sex with those women. We Christians are too quick to call something lust... so much so that the meaning of the word is lost on us.

Anyway, would you prefer all pretty, attractive female qualities to be banished from Christian women? ... so that the Christian guys are more interested in 'bad girls'? I'm serious. A bikini is about sun and surf, the beach etc. Even if a guy admires how a woman looks as such, it's in a fairly wholesome way. Imagine, if you will, that these woman have good moral character, and demonstrate that they like those qualities in the guys they date. They can have a positive influence, especially considering that the guys may try to impress them in a socially constructive way. Of course, some of us Christians want all attractive outfits etc. to be banished... which makes Christian guys look elsewhere (the wrong crowd) to find a girl who doesn't mind being female, all the while Christian women become ashamed of their bodies... so that many feel the need to rebel (turn their backs on God) in order to assert their femininity, which is just wrong.

That said, I hope my future wife is on a beach somewhere, wearing a bikini if she wants to.

I'm not ashamed of my body, and just because I choose not to wear a bikini does not mean that I am either. I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure that I don't want men gawking at me, lustfully or otherwise... and I'm pretty sure the beautiful qualities of the feminine body can be seen regardless of the kind of clothes worn.

 

[JourneyRain]

I have a few bikinis. They fit me better because I have an extremely long torso and all one pieces are just too tight. I had two tankinis before one fell apart. The other one the bottom is just skimpier then my bikini bottoms now.

I haven't read the whole thread but I'm curious what is the part that people are having the bigger issue with the top of the bikini or the bottom. Or the whole thing. and yes, there are one pieces that are more revealing.

One of my bikini's has a skirt and I love that one and I don't own any that are skimpier then bras as that wouldn't be comfortable. .

 

[robalan]

I'm not ashamed of my body, and just because I choose not to wear a bikini does not mean that I am either. I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure that I don't want men gawking at me, lustfully or otherwise... and I'm pretty sure the beautiful qualities of the feminine body can be seen regardless of the kind of clothes worn.

Totally agree.

And besides, if I'm married, I don't want any men seeing my wife like that...except for me.

 

[Alenci]

Totally agree.

And besides, if I'm married, I don't want any men seeing my wife like that...except for me.

Good! I'm sickened by the number of men that seem to be just fine with the idea of their wife prancing around mostly naked in front of other men.

 

[Niels]

And while we're on the topic...

"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl."
Job 31:1

If lust was truly about intent, wouldn't he have made a covenant with his heart or mind? "Full intent to have sex with someone" is a conscious decision.

In other words, his mind and heart made a covenant with his eyes. And if it wasn't sight, it would probably be some other sense.

Ah... but it is primarily the eyes that cause men to fall into lust.

What about blind men? Can they not lust too? I've heard Ray Charles was a womanizer. Chances are, he lusted quite a bit.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away."
Matthew 5:27-29

I can only gather that this point was made because some people were feeling 'holier than thou' about folks who committed adultery... figuring themselves somehow excempt, while rubbing it in people's faces. Often Jesus spoke specifically to put people in their place, and/or to make them think.

Our actions have their roots in thought. Even before a man has had sex with a woman, he has made love with her in his heart. I can imagine a guy going to a prostitute, but saying he's better than the others because he didn't actually touch her... when in reality what he does is no better than those who act out the physical part.

This strikes me as very different than looking at a girl in a bikini (or even looking at a girl in sweats etc).

Don't men have fantasies even while not looking at women? Isn't it therefore significant that Jesus mentions this specifically?

Yes. And so do women. Fantasies aren't exclusively male. That said, I don't think one can compare appreciating a Renoir (or even a vintage pinup, which was designed to be sexy) to what goes through the mind of an obsessive pervert who passionately schemes to have sex with a woman he happens to see.

Lust includes the enjoyment of gazing on the sexual attributes of women (other than a man's wife).

Lust may include the enjoyment of gazing at women (the way you mention the 'sexual attribute' part does seem a little perverted to me... so I agree that's kind of creepy), but mere enjoyment in and of itself isn't lust.

But speaking of 'enjoyment'...

- What about the arts? Classical art and dance often celebrates the female (and male) form. Does it all promote lust?

- Also, do you think women should ideally wear burkas or something equally concealing?

If no, where is the line drawn that separates one from the other? Both a bikini and a burka cover the wearer's private parts (which I think is absolutely necessary for modesty's sake) ...the burka just covers more.

 

[Alenci]

Why on earth are you asking me about burqas? I'm not Muslim! I don't think any male has difficulty telling the difference between a burqa and a bikini. In general, the more skin shown, the more men lust (and yes, I know that men will potentially lust even if a woman's wearing a burqa). Most everyone above the age of twelve knows this. It's up to girls to find a reasonable and modest style of dress without being excessive. Just at a total loss to figure out what that had to do with my post... sorry.

As for the arts... I'll leave it to men (or women for that matter, as you irrelevantly noted) to decide what is and isn't acceptable for them to view.

 

[Mskedi]

I wasn't talking about temptation. I was talking about modesty and respect. Would you wear something like that if Jesus were standing next to you?

Yes, I would, provided Jesus and I were hanging out at a beach or swimming pool.

1. I don't think my body is something to be ashamed of.
2. I don't wear bikinis with the intent of getting attention or making others stumble.

Therefore, I wear what I wear with a clear conscience, and I would not be uncomfortable wearing it in the presence of anyone.

 

[Niels]

Why on earth are you asking me about burqas? I'm not Muslim! I don't think any male has difficulty telling the difference between a burqa and a bikini. In general, the more skin shown, the more men lust (and yes, I know that men will potentially lust even if a woman's wearing a burqa). Most everyone above the age of twelve knows this. It's up to girls to find a reasonable and modest style of dress without being excessive. Just at a total loss to figure out what that had to do with my post... sorry.

As a guy, I can tell you that our lust doesn't simply increase or decrease depending on he amount of skin that's shown. It's a bit more complicated than that. I mentioned burkas (or burqas) because I wanted to see if you thought lust was simply a matter of the amount of skin shown. It seems your thinking runs mostly along those lines.

My argument is that the intent of the clothing is paramount. Bikinis are very different than ligerie, for example. While both may show skin, one is intended for the bedroom (lingerie), while the other is intended for the beach (bikinis). As such, Miss America in a bikini wouldn't raise eyebrows, while Miss America in lingerie would be somewhat lewd.

Also, classical dance, artwork etc. often displays the human form, but it clearly isn't pornographic in nature.

One can appreciate the beauty of human form without wanting to have sex.

As for the arts... I'll leave it to men (or women for that matter, as you irrelevantly noted) to decide what is and isn't acceptable for them to view.

Lust isn't just a problem for men, but a problem for women as well. Unless you buy into double standards, lust is a relevant issue for both sexes. Your personal experience may be different, but I have met many women who have a problem with lust. While men, on average, may tend to be more visually oriented, women certainly aren't exempt (think of romance novels, for example). In fact, I don't believe biblical teachings about lust are specific to men. Remember, society was quite different in biblical times... and the term 'man' often included women as well. Unless a distinction is made, where each sex is addressed separately, my understanding is that the teaching applies to everybody.

 

[Alenci]

I know that many women also lust! I'm not arguing that. But this is a thread about BIKINIS.

Should I always say "men and women" to be politically correct for you???

*slightly exasperated sigh*

 

[eatenbylocusts]

As a guy, I can tell you that our lust doesn't simply increase or decrease depending on he amount of skin that's shown. It's a bit more complicated than that. .

Huh? That's not what other men have told me. Maybe if you're talking about someone you already have a relationship with, but otherwise.... And I do realize that an imagination can play a big part in this.

 

[fairiedust]

Man, I feel naked enough with my tankini on... athough, I do have a more modest bikini.. but I rarely wear that one... heh.. And I wear shorts over my bottoms because it does just feel like wearing underwear... not cool in public.

 

[The Julikenz]

I don't either to a point. If i am to wear a LOW cut top, I'm asking for it, and its my fault.

There are so many things wrong with this sentence.

 

[Johnnz]

Some clothing does accentuate the female body rather obviously. That can be agreed easily enough.

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't the the female body that is attractive to men. The amount of clothing doesn't change that. Is there less male lust in a strict Muslim society, where the women are coverd head to feet?

And, wasn't it God who made the hormones and shapes that cause us to enjoy women? I must take responsiblity for my sexuality, but that involves far more than not fantasising over bodies. It includes honouring marriage, seeing any woman as an image bearer of God, not as someone to be assessed on physical grounds, to be a safe guy for any woman to be around whatever she is and wherever she is coming from. It means being a husband who, while being sexually faithful does also involves bringing my wife into greater fulfillment of God's amazing desires for her. A few bikinis are small fish against that task.

John
NZ

 

[barefeetonholyground]

Ok Matt (Soc), I have I high level of respect for you and your girlfriend, but I do have to say that slightly disagree with the whole bikini argument. True, women are not supposed to be a stumbling block but men are also to be held accountable for their own sins. It's a two-part thing. That being said, I have seen one piece suits far less modest than some bikinis. I do agree that a lot of it has to do with the cut, but also, I'm sure a lot of you girls would agree with me that one-piece suits are the most uncomfortable things that could possibly cling to a wet body. You raise your arms, they stretch and ride upwards, then you pull it down again to show a little more than you planned up top. You wished you picked a larger size but remembered throwing it out because it felt like it was falling off. True some bikinis barely cover the top but did you ever think maybe you're shopping at the wrong store? Most places I've ever gone suit-shopping at have mix-and-match sets so you can easily select both a top and bottom to fit. You like the halter style top but don't like the tiny bottoms? That's fine, bikini shorts are still an option. Could you do that with a one-piece? not as easy. As far as modesty goes, I think that's more of an attitude than a manner of dress. When I was in college, There were the skanky girls that were always flirting with anything with two legs and y-chromosomes and there were people like me, who went about like the guys really didn't exist. Yet somehow, even though I was more covered up than the skanky girls (who dressed to get more attention),I got more attention from the guys. Why? Because I walked with a confidence that guys saw and liked. I didn't need sexy clothes to get the guys attention, it was my spirit. I could have been out there in a parka, and I still would have made heads turn. It's not the suit that makes the girl modest, it's the way she behaves.