Biden Introduces American Families Plan

[renniks]

Many countries you might not describe as socialistic have a strong redistributive taxation policies as part of their welfare system: all the Scandinavian states; all the EU countries; all constituents of the United Kingdom; Australia; Canada; New Zealand. They happily embrace a mixture of capitalist and socialist principles so that there is no loss of liberty

Lol! No loss of liberty! Yeah, I'm aware that these are partially socialist countries. I'm also aware of all the liberties that they are losing.

 

[Pommer]

Lol! No loss of liberty! Yeah, I'm aware that these are partially socialist countries. I'm also aware of all the liberties that they are losing.

How many Swedes are pining for the days of going broke to get their gall stones taken out, a poster wonders?

 

[hislegacy]

It will be interesting to see what it gets chopped down to in the negotiations with republicans. The GOP saying no to stuff is the only way to see what they actually care about.

What makes you think they will bother negotiating at all?

 

[Oneiric1975]

Lol! No loss of liberty! Yeah, I'm aware that these are partially socialist countries. I'm also aware of all the liberties that they are losing.

I have spent a lot of time working with colleagues in Europe. They didn't seem to be suffering.

Meanwhile I wasted most of yesterday fighting with my insurance company and was told, effectively that the insurance company couldn't tell me how much they were going to cover a procedure until after I got the procedure. In ended up taking it in the shorts. I needed the procedure but guess what? They only covered a fraction of the cost! THERE WAS LITERALLY NO WAY FOR ME TO "SHOP AROUND" OR EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH I'D HAVE TO PAY BEFOREHAND.

That's freedom? Yeah.

 

[trunks2k]

Meanwhile I wasted most of yesterday fighting with my insurance company and was told, effectively that the insurance company couldn't tell me how much they were going to cover a procedure until after I got the procedure.

Yep, a story I often re-tell is overhearing my coworker deciding if she could afford $TEST to rule out $SERIOUS_DISEASE. She was fresh out of college with no savings and her first "real" job that gave her insurance. She spent most of the day going back and forth between calling the lab and our work insurance and kept getting wildly different numbers. She had no idea how much the test was going to cost, and was thinking it just wasn't worth the risk of it basically wiping out all the money she had.

We were telling her that she should be fully covered since it was her primary care referring the test. Ultimately, she listened to us, and we were right. But it was crazy that nobody could tell her how much it would cost her.

 

[Oneiric1975]

Yep, a story I often re-tell is overhearing my coworker deciding if she could afford $TEST to rule out $SERIOUS_DISEASE. She was fresh out of college with no savings and her first "real" job that gave her insurance. She spent most of the day going back and forth between calling the lab and our work insurance and kept getting wildly different numbers. She had no idea how much the test was going to cost, and was thinking it just wasn't worth the risk of it basically wiping out all the money she had.

We were telling her that she should be fully covered since it was her primary care referring the test. Ultimately, she listened to us, and we were right. But it was crazy that nobody could tell her how much it would cost her.

The best part about my experience was that I knew exactly how much the provider was going to charge but because it was out of network the insurance company could not tell me how much of the charge they were going to cover until I had gotten the treatment and submitted the claim.

Yesterday I was told by the rep that the insurance company does not know what the "usual and customary" charge will be for something and she was going to get me access to the list of "usual and customary" charges. If you can figure out how that kind of reasoning works you can become an insurance exec.

All these folks who THINK America has a "market-based" healthcare system have never actually tried to use the "market" part. If you don't know how much something is going to cost you YOU ARE NOT IN A FREE MARKET.

In most ways America is FAR LESS "FREE" than most other developed nations. It's insane.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I've always wondered if those who complain about the "mega-rich" or 1% are willing to give up their technology products like smart phones, computers, and computer software. Or cancel their social media accounts. Or, heaven forbid, stop ordering products on a certain mega company's website just so they can have it the same day. Heck, some of them should give up their certain brand of electric vehicle so that bad man can stop trying to send people to live on the moon or go to Mars. All they are doing is enabling the rich to get richer by buying or using their products.

 

[Oneiric1975]

I've always wondered if those who complain about the "mega-rich" or 1% are willing to give up their technology products like smart phones, computers, and computer software. Or cancel their social media accounts. Or, heaven forbid, stop ordering products on a certain mega company's website just so they can have it the same day. Heck, some of them should give up their certain brand of electric vehicle so that bad man can stop trying to send people to live on the moon or go to Mars. All they are doing is enabling the rich to get richer by buying or using their products.

This is a good point, but I think the key is that it doesn't have to be this way. Yes Jeff Bezos created a good system in Amazon...but does that mean he gets everything? He can easily afford to pay significantly more in top marginal tax rate and still live better than most humans have ever lived in the entire history of humanity.

That's the point: we don't need an all-or-nothing approach.

 

[trophy33]

This is a good point, but I think the key is that it doesn't have to be this way. Yes Jeff Bezos created a good system in Amazon...but does that mean he gets everything? He can easily afford to pay significantly more in top marginal tax rate and still live better than most humans have ever lived in the entire history of humanity.

That's the point: we don't need an all-or-nothing approach.

I can imagine its very demotivating when you build something from nothing, get rich from that and then gov comes and takes some high percentage of it and says - you will still have better standard of living than the average people.

Its still something that is yours, gained legally and with your own energy, time, risk, worries and money and then somebody just takes it away and give to others.

BTW, I am not rich at all, I am just an employee, but I can understand that high corporate taxes are demotivating for the economy to grow.

 

[BigDaddy4]

This is a good point, but I think the key is that it doesn't have to be this way. Yes Jeff Bezos created a good system in Amazon...but does that mean he gets everything? He can easily afford to pay significantly more in top marginal tax rate and still live better than most humans have ever lived in the entire history of humanity.

That's the point: we don't need an all-or-nothing approach.

1. He created the company, so yes, he gets everything he is entitled to in accordance with the lawful governing policies/procedures/agreements of the company he created;
2. With his recent divorce, he now has half of everything (more or less), lol;
3. The city of Seattle (and now the state of Washington) keeps trying to impose a wealth tax. The WA state proposal would essentially have 4 people pay 97% of the expected revenue. Just because they were involved in these little startups called Amazon and Microsoft.

I think all this whining is born out of jealousy that these whiners didn't think of those ideas first, and can't make it on their own as a business owner.

 

[Oneiric1975]

1. He created the company, so yes, he gets everything he is entitled to in accordance with the lawful governing policies/procedures/agreements of the company he created;
2. With his recent divorce, he now has half of everything (more or less), lol;
3. The city of Seattle (and now the state of Washington) keeps trying to impose a wealth tax. The WA state proposal would essentially have 4 people pay 97% of the expected revenue. Just because they were involved in these little startups called Amazon and Microsoft.

I think all this whining is born out of jealousy that these whiners didn't think of those ideas first, and can't make it on their own as a business owner.

He didn’t create Amazon in a vacuum. He didn’t create the internet and he doesn’t do all the work.

I agree he has done an amazing thing with Amazon but it was not created out of whole cloth by one man. Besides he’s enjoying Top marginal tax rates lower than in the 1950’s. Was America a communist dictatorship at that time?

 

[Oneiric1975]

I can imagine its very demotivating when you build something from nothing, get rich from that and then gov comes and takes some high percentage of it and says - you will still have better standard of living than the average people.

Its still something that is yours, gained legally and with your own energy, time, risk, worries and money and then somebody just takes it away and give to others.

BTW, I am not rich at all, I am just an employee, but I can understand that high corporate taxes are demotivating for the economy to grow.

my first patents netted me NOTHING. I was given nothing for them by my employer. Yet I survived.

 

[trophy33]

my first patents netted me NOTHING. I was given nothing for them by my employer. Yet I survived.

So?

 

[Oneiric1975]

So?

Just saying that SOME OF US have gotten used to not getting everything we "deserve" and yet we soldier on. In fact I was HAPPY to give up my patents for free because they were for the USDA and were intended to go to agricultural providers for free or reduced license fees.

It's called "the greater good". We can expect that from Bezos as well.

 

[trophy33]

Just saying that SOME OF US have gotten used to not getting everything we "deserve" and yet we soldier on. In fact I was HAPPY to give up my patents for free because they were for the USDA and were intended to go to agricultural providers for free or reduced license fees.

It's called "the greater good". We can expect that from Bezos as well.

How do you define what you deserve and that you did not get that?

What you economically deserve is mostly expressed in the money you get from the market.

 

[Oneiric1975]

How do you define what you deserve and that you did not get that?

You have any patents? Did it require any effort on your part? Did you give it away?

What you economically deserve is mostly expressed in the money you get from the market.

Part of the deal when you worked as a research scientist for the USDA was that you agreed that you would automatically assign the patents you developed from your research to the USDA at which point they would be made available to the farmers for free or below-market license fees.

Read that last bit again: free or below-market rates.

That's what people who are interested in the greater good do. They are happy with getting a decent living and they don't have a problem giving up some stuff.

Again, how many of your patents did you give away for free?

 

[trophy33]

You have any patents? Did it require any effort on your part? Did you give it away?

I work in a company that can use any of my work as theirs. I get regular salary for that, so no patents.

Part of the deal when you worked as a research scientist for the USDA was that you agreed that you would automatically assign the patents you developed from your research to the USDA at which point they would be made available to the farmers for free or below-market license fees.

Read that last bit again: free or below-market rates.

That's what people who are interested in the greater good do. They are happy with getting a decent living and they don't have a problem giving up some stuff.

I am not sure what you think is wrong with that. You gave up your inventions for the certainity of regular payments without risk. It was a free market deal between you and that company.

The company took higher risk and therefore also higher gains than you.

 

[Oneiric1975]

I work in a company that can use any of my invention as theirs. I get regular salary for that, so no patents.

If you are in the US and you create something that becomes a patent you are the automatic owner of that patent even if you did it while working for the company. You probably signed a contract in which you agreed that any intellectual property you create is assigned to the company. The company didn't automatically get that because they paid you a salary, it required a separate agreement. That's how US patents work. They have to make an explicit deal with you that you will forego ownership of the patent and will assign the patent to your employer.

This is really common. However you would be giving up your ownership which is separate from your salary. It is highly unlikely that your employment is predicated on you getting patents. You do your work, it might end up being patentable.

You gave up your inventions for the certainity of regular payments without risk. It was a free market deal between you and that company.

I agreed to give them up. But the company did not have an automatic right to it until I signed the employment agreement. (*And mind you I was not REQUIRED to make patentable inventions* so you cannot say they were paying me to make patentable stuff.)

By definition I have given up something of value for nothing.

But do you see my larger point? Bezos could likewise agree that living the in the US is a great deal and he's willing to pay more in taxes for the benefits living here has provided him and his business and he's not worse off.

Why is it not a problem for ME but it would be a problem for him?

 

[SummerMadness]

No billionaire is self-made. There is a lot of help, including work by employees and collaborators, help from government. Like your shipping company has the government-sponsored interstate to thank for getting goods around at a cheap cost. Your online company has the government-sponsored Internet to thank for your websites success. Paying more in taxes has led to large corporations being more prosperous, the United States experienced its best economic periods during eras of "high taxes." The notion that low taxes breeds innovation and more prosperity is completely, false, it is not supported by the data. When everyone pays their fair share in taxes, it helps stabilize the middle class and provides assistance to the poor.

When corporations are reaping record profits, while filling out government assistance applications for their employees, they're stealing from you. Just make them pay their fair share in taxes, then we won't have this problem.

 

[trophy33]

By definition I have given up something of value for nothing.

Freely, you decided to do that because you wanted that job.

But do you see my larger point?

No.

Bezos could likewise agree that living the in the US is a great deal

Yes, he can give as much money to charity as he wants or to support the US/humanity in any way he likes.

...willing to pay more in taxes.... Why is it not a problem for ME but it would be a problem for him?

Because taxes are taken by force. Its not a free decision.