Biden Introduces American Families Plan

[Oneiric1975]

I suggest you eat a cookie and clam down. Maybe two.

Ahhh, so when YOU are in error, other people must be shut up, eh?

 

[Oneiric1975]

No - using huge letters and insulting people will never end in a win.

I put it there so you could read it. I suspected you'd just blow it off (which you did) so apparently the letters weren't big enough for you.

 

[Oneiric1975]

No - using huge letters and insulting people will never end in a win.

And if I thought you were worth the actual effort I'd be sad. But you're not. I couldn't convince you of the sky being blue on a sunny day. That isn't how any of this works.

 

[Whyayeman]

I hope you have eaten your biscuits. Time to get back to the subject, which is not the state of American health insurance companies, though they are part of the problem. Of course, I can see why Americans get upset about them. Health insurance is just so expensive and inefficient in terms of cost/benefit for patients - seen primarily as customers.

Wider welfare considerations are: how to support the unemployed; how to help children in dire poverty; those unable to work for health reasons.

 

[hislegacy]

I hope you have eaten your biscuits. Time to get back to the subject, which is not the state of American health insurance companies, though they are part of the problem. Of course, I can see why Americans get upset about them. Health insurance is just so expensive and inefficient in terms of cost/benefit for patients - seen primarily as customers.

Wider welfare considerations are: how to support the unemployed; how to help children in dire poverty; those unable to work for health reasons.

Absolutely correct.

Which do you think is better. Having the individuals employed or on welfare?

There are arguments on both sides.

 

[Whyayeman]

Which do you think is better. Having the individuals employed or on welfare?

Having a job is always better than being on welfare.

However, this is usually not a matter of choice. When steel mills and automotive factories close, large numbers of workers are suddenly unemployed due to circumstances beyond their control.

I do not think the question needs to be asked of them: which do you prefer; welfare or work? In single industry towns when the big employer disappears there are very few opportunities for alternative work. Skilled workers on good incomes do not usually make good baristas, nor find they can maintain their mortgages on the minimum wage. They default on their mortgages, and from there it is not far to penury and homelessness - without support from somewhere. In my view the best placed to give support is the government, through taxation. Taxing the richest the most is just the obvious solution to me.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Do you buy clothes?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Got a computer?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Are you connected to the internet?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Do you go to restaurants?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Do you drive a car?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Do you have a cell phone?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Do you use a bank or Credit Union?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

How about, have you ever taken out a loan?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Do you ever purchase groceries?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Do you have utilities in your home?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Ever drink at Starbucks?
They are produced and provided by folks whose primary goals is to secure profit.

Hmmm... seems to be a recurring theme.

Every once in a while, I take a step back and think, “Maybe the Right has it all figured out and I’m in the wrong.” Then a post like this comes along that shows how far off the Right really is. While this is a decent argument in how free market economics works, it doesn’t work in health care. In every instance you gave, I, as the consumer can simply say “That’s too much.” Then the producer/servicer can lower the price or watch me walk away. In health care, I don’t have the freedom to walk away, it’s either I pay up or I die. The government needs to take control of health care because the server can charge as much as they want and the customer will always pay no matter how high the price. That isn’t a free market, it’s extortion.

 

[renniks]

You’re gonna love Medicare.
I get these “THIS IS NOT A BILL” mailings and talk about “freedom”? Glorious!

Doesn't address the issue. Why should anyone be forced to have health insurance?

 

[hislegacy]

The government needs to take control of health care because the server can charge as much as they want and the customer will always pay no matter how high the price. That isn’t a free market, it’s extortion.

Two points, and I am not disagreeing with your thoughts

First, we disagree about the government needing to take control. My reasoning being is that the government is inept when it comes to controlling spending. This is demonstrably accurate over the last 200 years of mis management

Second, you are correct in how the free market controls pricing. However, our current health care is anything but a free market. I’m in favor of making it a free market.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Two points, and I am not disagreeing with your thoughts

First, we disagree about the government needing to take control. My reasoning being is that the government is inept when it comes to controlling spending. This is demonstrably accurate over the last 200 years of mis management

Second, you are correct in how the free market controls pricing. However, our current health care is anything but a free market. I’m in favor of making it a free market.

Health care cannot be a free market. In a free market the consumer needs to be able to say that’s too much and walk away from the transaction. If your loved one needs life saving surgery, you aren’t going to simply tell the doctor “That’s too much money” and walk away. You’ll wander the streets every night looking for any loose change you can put toward the operation to saved your loved one, you’ll sell your own auxiliary organs such as a spare lung or kidney if necessary. You aren’t in a position to say no, it’s say yes or die. It’s not a free market. Competition can lower the price some but if everyone knows you’ll pay no matter the price it is never going to drop into affordable range. Your ability to walk away is what lowers the price a lot and you don’t have that ability in health care.

 

[hislegacy]

Health care cannot be a free market. In a free market the consumer needs to be able to say that’s too much and walk away from the transaction. If your loved one needs life saving surgery, you aren’t going to simply tell the doctor “That’s too much money” and walk away. You’ll wander the streets every night looking for any loose change you can put toward the operation to saved your loved one, you’ll sell your own auxiliary organs such as a spare lung or kidney if necessary. You aren’t in a position to say no, it’s say yes or die. It’s not a free market. Competition can lower the price some but if everyone knows you’ll pay no matter the price it is never going to drop into affordable range. Your ability to walk away is what lowers the price a lot and you don’t have that ability in health care.

If healthcare was truly a free market, there would be no in network or out of network systems.

I’ll give you an example: I do not have dental insurance. I recently broke a tooth and had to have it removed. When it came to replacing it, because I was a cash payer, I had the ability to shop for it..

The pricing varied over 1,300 between the highest and lowest.

That is the results of a type of free market. Insurance companies currently do not allow that.

 

[Oneiric1975]

Health care cannot be a free market. In a free market the consumer needs to be able to say that’s too much and walk away from the transaction. If your loved one needs life saving surgery, you aren’t going to simply tell the doctor “That’s too much money” and walk away. You’ll wander the streets every night looking for any loose change you can put toward the operation to saved your loved one, you’ll sell your own auxiliary organs such as a spare lung or kidney if necessary. You aren’t in a position to say no, it’s say yes or die. It’s not a free market. Competition can lower the price some but if everyone knows you’ll pay no matter the price it is never going to drop into affordable range. Your ability to walk away is what lowers the price a lot and you don’t have that ability in health care.

It gets even better when you can't even know how much you will be on the hook for in terms of cost until you buy it.

That is what happened to me recently. I needed some treatment and I "shopped" around but the only folks providing the treatment needed were out of network. I couldn't get my insurance company to tell me how much they would cover on the cost. I knew exactly what the cost was, what the codes were, etc.

Fast forward 6 months and I was speaking with an insurance rep the other day and she said they cover "usual and customary" costs for out of network providers. I then asked where I could get that and she said she would provide me a resource but that the insurance company didn't know what the usual and customary costs would be. I am still struggling to understand her explanation since it made ZERO sense.

There's a reason why Americans pay nearly 2X as much for healthcare as any other developed nation on earth.

 

[Belk]

Doesn't address the issue. Why should anyone be forced to have health insurance?

For the same reason you are "Forced" to have clean water.

 

[hislegacy]

For the same reason you are "Forced" to have clean water.

that makes no sense at all.

I can drink tap water
I can boil water out of a stream
I can purchase any one of hundreds of makes and varieties of water on the market.

not one of which is mandated by the government.

 

[Belk]

that makes no sense at all.

I can drink tap water
I can boil water out of a stream
I can purchase any one of hundreds of makes and varieties of water on the market.

not one of which is mandated by the government.

You don't think clean water is mandated and standards are set by the Federal government?