Biblical Timeline leading up to the end

[Erik Nelson]

But these are not the elect. 3/4 of the seed sown fails in the parable of the sower. And tares act like Christians thinking works save them. But this all happens that those approved might be made manifest.

Well let's please use your argument.

The parable of the sower. Matthew 13.

"The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them."

That COULDN'T HAPPEN during the Millennium. When the adversary is bound and cannot deceive and lead a stray anyone.

That is Jesus preparing his direct Apostles and disciples for preaching the gospel throughout the Roman Empire in the first century. Before Christianity converted the Roman Empire

 

[Dave L]

Well let's please use your argument.

The parable of the sower. Matthew 13.

"The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them."

That COULDN'T HAPPEN during the Millennium. When the adversary is bound and cannot deceive and lead a stray anyone.

That is Jesus preparing his direct Apostles and disciples for preaching the gospel throughout the Roman Empire in the first century. Before Christianity converted the Roman Empire

Satan cannot deceive the elect. He still deceives the rest of the world creating tares.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Satan cannot deceive the elect. He still deceives the rest of the world creating tares.

Except not even during the Millennium?

The adversary cannot deceive while bound. The adversary is bound for 1000 years that he cannot deceive.

If Gentiles are being deceived, it's either before or after the Millennium.

 

[Dave L]

Except not even during the Millennium?

The adversary cannot deceive while bound. The adversary is bound for 1000 years that he cannot deceive.

If Gentiles are being deceived, it's either before or after the Millennium.

There is no millennium. It is pure fiction.

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

 

[Douggg]

Most think they already existed. If you junk your Jesuit inspired gap theory inserted between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks, you might turn what you already know into something useful.

Well then, who do "most" say their names were?

 

[Dave L]

Well then, who do "most" say their names were?

There are several different positions. The Historicist view seems plausible. The Geneva Bible footnotes say;

p. Which is ment of Julius Cesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero &c. who were as Kings in effect, but because thei colde not rule, but by the consent of the Senat, their power is compared to a litle horne For Mahomet came not of the Romaine empire, and the Pope hathe no vocacion of governement: therefore this can not be applied unto them and also in this prophecie the Prophets purpose is chiefly to comfort the Jewes unto the revelation of Christ Some take it for the whole bodie of Antichrist.
q. Meaning, a certeine portion of the ten hornes: that is, a parte from the whole estate was taken away. For Augustus toke from the Senat the libertie of chosing the deputes to send into the provinces, and toke the governement of certeine countreis to him self.
r. These Romaine Emperours at the first used a certeine humanitie and gentlenes, and were content that others as the Consuls and Senat shulde beare the name of dignitie, so that thei might have the profite, and therefore in elections and counsels wolde behave them selves according as did other Senatours: yet against their enemies and those that wolde resist them, thei were fierce and cruel, which is here ment by the proud mouth.


Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 1, p. 361). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

 

[Erik Nelson]

There is no millennium. It is pure fiction.

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

revelation 20:1-6 is pure fiction??

I think I already tried to say that THE KINGDOM IS NOT THE MILLENNIUM. The Millennium is only one phase one age of the otherwise eternal Kingdom, which came with Christ in the first century. But the MILLENNIUM did not come. With. The Cross.

 

[Dave L]

revelation 20:1-6 is pure fiction??

I think I already tried to say that THE KINGDOM IS NOT THE MILLENNIUM. The Millennium is only one phase one age of the otherwise eternal Kingdom, which came with Christ in the first century. But the MILLENNIUM did not come. With. The Cross.

Revelation is a book of symbols. You will miss it completely expecting the symbols instead of what they represent to materialize.

 

[Erik Nelson]

There are several different positions. The Historicist view seems plausible. The Geneva Bible footnotes say;

p. Which is ment of Julius Cesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero &c. who were as Kings in effect, but because thei colde not rule, but by the consent of the Senat, their power is compared to a litle horne For Mahomet came not of the Romaine empire, and the Pope hathe no vocacion of governement: therefore this can not be applied unto them and also in this prophecie the Prophets purpose is chiefly to comfort the Jewes unto the revelation of Christ Some take it for the whole bodie of Antichrist.
q. Meaning, a certeine portion of the ten hornes: that is, a parte from the whole estate was taken away. For Augustus toke from the Senat the libertie of chosing the deputes to send into the provinces, and toke the governement of certeine countreis to him self.
r. These Romaine Emperours at the first used a certeine humanitie and gentlenes, and were content that others as the Consuls and Senat shulde beare the name of dignitie, so that thei might have the profite, and therefore in elections and counsels wolde behave them selves according as did other Senatours: yet against their enemies and those that wolde resist them, thei were fierce and cruel, which is here ment by the proud mouth.


Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 1, p. 361). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

The 10th horn is the ruler which brings about the abomination of Desolation in the 70th week. After defeating 3 rulers by uprooting 3 horns.

It is certainly is striking coincidence that the ruler which destroyed the physical temple in the year 70. AD was Vespasian. The 10th emperor of Rome, who defeated 3 other rivals in the year 70. Namely, Galba otho and Vitelius.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Revelation is a book of symbols. You will miss it completely expecting the symbols instead of what they represent to materialize.

Symbols are VISUAL.

Time statements are time statements they are chronological.

Can God tell time? If God said something is about to occur. Is it about to occur? If God says something will happen quickly does it happen quickly. If God says 1000 years. Does he mean 1000 years?

Very dangerous to deny that time statements mean what they say.

 

[Dave L]

Symbols are VISUAL.

Time statements are time statements they are chronological.

Can God tell time? If God said something is about to occur. Is it about to occur? If God says something will happen quickly does it happen quickly. If God says 1000 years. Does he mean 1000 years?

Very dangerous to deny that time statements mean what they say.

1000 years is the symbol for the binding of Satan. It is not literal time.

 

[Erik Nelson]

1000 years is the symbol for the binding of Satan. It is not literal time.

Well, you agree that the binding of the adversary occurs when Christ defeat the beast?

The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. Christ symbolizes the church.

The Church spiritually converted the Pagan Roman Empire in the third, fourth and fifth centuries.

Paganry was stifled for 1000 years until the Renaissance, which explicitly tried to bring back classical pre Christian. Pagin. Greco Roman values.

 

[Dave L]

Well, you agree that the binding of the adversary occurs when Christ defeat the beast?

The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. Christ symbolizes the church.

The Church spiritually converted the Pagan Roman Empire in the third, fourth and fifth centuries.

Paganry was stifled for 1000 years until the Renaissance, which explicitly tried to bring back classical pre Christian. Pagin. Greco Roman values.

It still remains, the 1000 years are not literal. They symbolize the binding of Satan which happened with the spread of the gospel.

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

Whenever I find myself studying or discussing prophecy, I always bring it back to 2 Peter 1:20. My thinking is the following: what value is there in studying the Bible if we are not understanding what it truly communicates? Now of course eschatology can be challenging, but all the more so to be even more diligent in how we study the Bible. If you apply the grammatical-historical method of interpreting Scripture (which I believe is the only sound way to do so), it will inevitably lead you to the view of Futurism.

It is not that the kingdom of God is only spiritual. Rather that it must be spiritual before it can become literal. We are partakers of the divine nature now spiritually, one day literally. We are a holy nation, a chosen race, a royal priesthood now spiritually, one day literally. We are kings and priests to God in Christ now spiritually, one day literally, etc. The OT is full of prophecies concerning the coming Messianic Age, it is not something “spiritual” that is synonymous with the present church age. This idea is in actuality foreign to Scripture, it is an over-spiritualization of the Scriptures, I believe. The OT leaves absolutely no room for this! Both the nature and details of OT descriptions of the Messianic Kingdom make it clear that it is to be a literal kingdom, it is not the eternal state that the prophets were speaking of. They even get down to the details of how the existing nations of that time will exist and function under the Messianic rule of Christ. Christ Himself speaks of the present age (held in the power of the devil) and the age to come, which is the age of the kingdom of God with Christ on the Davidic throne (Matthew 12:32). The eternal state involves the dissolution of any and all such ages. The term "age" signifies a dispensation of time, eternity has no such distinction. There is also a crucial theological truth which I believe necessitates the coming literal Messianic Kingdom, in that the righteous reign of God through Christ must be made manifest to the creation before God’s indictment on fallen humanity can be made complete which will allow for final judgment to come, see Revelations 20:7-9.

The Bible is full of prophetic foreshadowing. It is not that the prophecies of Christ were fulfilled in His time, but rather that the events of His time foreshadowed what was to come. This is a reoccurring theme in the OT. The more one’s eschatology moves towards becoming complete and balanced, you the more you can see that these prophecies point to the future, and this becomes especially clear once you properly study and discern the nature of the times we are living in, as you will be able to see how it is all coming to a head.

Also, I understand that the "1000 year" description of the reign of Christ can be something challenging to interpret. I view it this way: the amount of time that the coming age will last is something God, in His sovereignty, chose to not reveal. It will be an "age" in the same way that previous ages were, as they came and went, most likely an extended period of time, but that's as much as we are meant to know. The number "1000" is used, I believe, to signify that God has determined the length of time, and that it is to be exact and perfect, for one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day to God.

 

[Erik Nelson]

It still remains, the 1000 years are not literal. They symbolize the binding of Satan which happened with the spread of the gospel.

Well, that binding certainly BEGAN with Jesus is ministry on Earth and the first century, evangelism. But the beast and false prophet weren't converted immediately. Took quite a while.

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

It still remains, the 1000 years are not literal. They symbolize the binding of Satan which happened with the spread of the gospel.

Note what the passage indicates, satan is not just bound, he is sealed in the abyss where he cannot tempt anyone - and then released for a short while, and for a purpose. This has not happened yet, satan is still at large until the appointed time. Again, futurism.

 

[Dave L]

Note what the passage indicates, satan is not just bound, he is sealed in the abyss where he cannot tempt anyone - and then released for a short while, and for a purpose. This has not happened yet, satan is still at large until the appointed time. Again, futurism.

He is supposed to deceive unbelievers. That's his job. But he cannot deceive the elect. He was bound when Jesus said he was, when Jesus began preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[parousia70]

Well, I understand your arguments so far. But a time statement is a time statement. And if 1000 years doesn't mean 1000 years. Then near doesn't mean near?

Seems like your cherry picking and choosing when to accept a time statement at face value. "Near is near at the door is at the door". And when not to "1000 years well. Not really."

Can God tell time or not?

Thousand years IS A thousand.
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of ....
wait for it....
1000 years.

The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to to, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.

 

[ThatCanadianDude_88]

He is supposed to deceive unbelievers. That's his job. But he cannot deceive the elect. He was bound when Jesus said he was, when Jesus began preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

Revelation 20:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Satan Bound
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Where is the gospel mentioned here? How is the explanation you offer Biblical, meaning how do you explain it from Scripture? If you are saying this is currently fulfilled, then that is to say that satan is no longer deceiving the nations.

But satan is clearly deceiving the nations as we speak. So what this portion of Scripture speaks of has not happened yet.

The gospel removed the devil's power and authority, that's what Scripture tells us, but he is still in operation. This passage speaks of a time when he is imprisoned, meaning his activity ceases during the age of the Messianic Kingdom.

The explanation you offer is at odds with Scripture, either you are right and satan is currently bound and his activities have ceased (which is clearly not the case) or this speaks of something to take place in the future. Those are the two options.

 

[Dave L]

Revelation 20:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Satan Bound
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Where is the gospel mentioned here? How is the explanation you offer Biblical, meaning how do you explain it from Scripture? If you are saying this is currently fulfilled, then that is to say that satan is no longer deceiving the nations.

But satan is clearly deceiving the nations as we speak. So what this portion of Scripture speaks of has not happened yet.

The gospel removed the devil's power and authority, that's what Scripture tells us, but he is still in operation. This passage speaks of a time when he is imprisoned, meaning his activity ceases during the age of the Messianic Kingdom.

The explanation you offer is at odds with Scripture, either you are right and satan is currently bound and his activities have ceased (which is clearly not the case) or this speaks of something to take place in the future. Those are the two options.

What keeps Satan from deceiving other than the gospel?