Biblical repentance (doesn't mean a works based salvation)

[HIM]

repent in Bible = change of mind/direction, Bible says repent and believe the gospel for salvation, not "repent of your sins (works)" Acts 20:21 "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." God repented more than anyone in the Bible and he doesn't sin.

if you falsely believe and say that repent means "of your sins" to be saved you have 1. added to Gods word 2. believe that Christs death, burial, resurrection wasn't sufficient for sins 3. added to salvation 4. called God a sinner (he repented over 20 times) 5. made salvation works based (follow the law to be/stay saved) which is a false gospel

I believe in repentance for salvation, the biblical repentance not the false "of your sins" works righteousness salvation. and people will falsely accuse you of not believing in repentance when you preach this and then they will falsely throw verses like Luke 13:3 at you, which says nothing about turning from sins and in fact is just talking about physical repentance saying you will likewise perish (Luke 13:3-5). they will hit you with these verses out of context to silence you from preaching grace through faith salvation, it hinders soul winning.

Also they will claim you that you teach license to sin, turned grace into lasciviousness, encourage and glorify sin and falsely claim that you don't believe in repenting of sins at all, but this is a lie, I believe in repent of sins, but not to be saved! Repent of your sins is works,

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Repenting of sins is a daily thing, not apart of our salvation, after salvation we still must die daily, take up our cross, choose to walk in the spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, however we will never be sinlessly perfect until our flesh dies and we go to heaven, Apostle Paul still struggled with Sin, all the apostles sinned after they were saved, yet they all preached against sin, and they never once lost their salvation. Peter denied Christ multiple times and didn't lose his salvation, King Saul, Samson committed suicide and never lost it, Judas committed suicide after he "repented" but went to hell because he was never saved.

Salvation is simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31, entire Gospel of John), if you believe then you sins are covered, if you haven't believed in Christ or believe in your works/repenting your sins or adding anything else to Christs death, burial, resurrection to save you, then you're not saved. this is not "downplaying" or condoning or even encouraging sin at all, this is just explaining the biblical reality of salvation and separating the free gift of eternal life offered freely by Jesus, from our works that we do after we are saved.

The problem is most don't understand what salvation is. John does an excellent job explaining it. Most miss that.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

@Saint Steven , I'm not able to make a comment to post #17 . It circles back to me. I see this also happened to another person. Glitch? I'm doing a test .

Ok moving on, this your post :

That's a good response, thanks.
One of your "quenching" examples earlier were those who Christ said he "never knew".

That would mean quenching the Spirit leads to what you might call "eternal damnation"?
And now a violation of the fruit* of the Spirit, the same end?

* Note: the "fruit" of the Spirit is singular. Not like the gifts. (plural)

For clarity I will define the " fruits of the Holy Spirit" vs the "gifts of the Holy Spirit":

Galatians 5:22-23 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

1 Corinthians 12
4 There are different kinds of gifts. But it is the same Holy Spirit Who gives them. 5 There are different kinds of work to be done for Him. But the work is for the same Lord. 6 There are different ways of doing His work. But it is the same God who uses all these ways in all people. 7 The Holy Spirit works in each person in one way or another for the good of all. 8 One person is given the gift of teaching words of wisdom. Another person is given the gift of teaching what he has learned and knows. These gifts are by the same Holy Spirit. 9 One person receives the gift of faith. Another person receives the gifts of healing. These gifts are given by the same Holy Spirit. 10 One person is given the gift of doing powerful works. Another person is given the gift of speaking God’s Word. Another person is given the gift of telling the difference between the Holy Spirit and false spirits. Another person is given the gift of speaking in special sounds. Another person is given the gift of telling what these special sounds mean. 11 But it is the same Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, Who does all these things. He gives to each person as He wants to give.

Quenching the Holy Spirit IMHO is not necessarily a salvation issue. Apostasy or rejection are. So I believe if one continues to quench they will eventually fall into apostasy if they do not repent. As far as eternal damnation, thats another subject and we have certainly been down that one! Thanks for engaging! Blessings

( Ill visit the other thread)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Ok I see we can either comment or quote on a post however if you choose comment there is no way to engage back and forth easily. So if you want to continue the conversation you need to quote the post. Is this a new feature ?

 

[Der Alte]

Ok I see we can either comment or quote on a post however if you choose comment there is no way to engage back and forth easily. So if you want to continue the conversation you need to quote the post. Is this a new feature ?

It is a little different. The quote feature allows you to quote more than one post. After you have selected 2 or more posts. Click the insert posts button lower left. The reply feature inserts the current post only.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't believe God will do anything to us if we reject Jesus.

We sinned against God and are separated from him by that sin. The wages of sin is death - spiritual and eternal separation from God.
In his love, grace and mercy, God has provided a way out, salvation; a way to be reconciled to God again, have forgiveness and peace and live with him forever. If we accept his plan of salvation - Jesus' death on the cross - then we are, once again, reconciled to God, have peace with him and every spiritual blessing in Christ. We can live in him, and he is us; we are dead to sin and have the life that Jesus came to bring.

If someone knowingly rejects this, and keeps on rejecting it; when they die, they die unreconciled to God. I don't believe God punishes them for rejecting him. Their fate is simply to live forever without him; in darkness, unforgiven, cut off from God, love and hope. It's the consequence of the choice they made - i.e. to live for self and reject God - during their life.
I believe also, though I can't prove it, that because they will have met God and seen him face to face, their eternal torment will be to know that things could have been very different for them - and their eternal shame will be that they rejected their maker, and the one who freely loves and forgives.

 

[Saint Steven]

If someone knowingly rejects this, and keeps on rejecting it; when they die, they die unreconciled to God. I don't believe God punishes them for rejecting him. Their fate is simply to live forever without him; in darkness, unforgiven, cut off from God, love and hope. It's the consequence of the choice they made - i.e. to live for self and reject God - during their life.
I believe also, though I can't prove it, that because they will have met God and seen him face to face, their eternal torment will be to know that things could have been very different for them - and their eternal shame will be that they rejected their maker, and the one who freely loves and forgives.

Does this gentler, kinder, more friendly version of eternal conscious torment have any biblical support? As I understand it, the "eternal separation from God" idea was invented to make God look better. Since the standard doctrine was "hell fire and brimstone".

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't believe God will do anything to us if we reject Jesus.

Even Universalists don't believe that.

 

[Strong in Him]

Does this gentler, kinder, more friendly version of eternal conscious torment have any biblical support? As I understand it, the "eternal separation from God" idea was invented to make God look better. Since the standard doctrine was "hell fire and brimstone".

God can't "look better" - he is perfect, and he is love.
He doesn't need us to try to make him look good, or better. He is king; eternal, infinite, Lord of all, and will not share his glory with another.

ECT conjures up a picture of God, rubbing his hands with glee, while thinking of new and increasingly painful ways of punishing those who didn't believe in him.
The Bible does not give that picture of God - at all.

 

[Der Alte]

God can't "look better" - he is perfect, and he is love.
He doesn't need us to try to make him look good, or better. He is king; eternal, infinite, Lord of all, and will not share his glory with another.
ECT conjures up a picture of God, rubbing his hands with glee, while thinking of new and increasingly painful ways of punishing those who didn't believe in him.
The Bible does not give that picture of God - at all.

Here is the main "Eternal Punishment" text. Where do you get "God, rubbing his hands with glee, while thinking of new and increasingly painful ways of punishing those who didn't believe in him?"

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

 

[Der Alte]

Does this gentler, kinder, more friendly version of eternal conscious torment have any biblical support? As I understand it, the "eternal separation from God" idea was invented to make God look better. Since the standard doctrine was "hell fire and brimstone".

Does your Bible have 2 Thess 1:9?

2 Thessalonians 1:9
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

 

[Lost Witness]

 

[UsernamedNamedUser]

It's a vineyard, the purpose is to grow fruit. The vine gains value from it's fruit, thus God decides whether to prune or cut the vine based off its fruit.

Is the fruit the works from the Old Testament? No. In the Old Testament men were called to stand on their own legs. Now it's different. Jesus died, so now believers no longer stand by themselves but stand in Christ. They no longer bear fruit in themselves but bear fruit in Christ. They have works in Christ that they are judged off of.

Does that contradict the concept of grace? No, for it is a grace that Christians can stand and produce fruit in Christ. We did not deserve this, but God gave it to us. It is a grace to be able to bear fruit in Christ, and by that fruit we are judged.

 

[Strong in Him]

Here is the main "Eternal Punishment" text. Where do you get "God, rubbing his hands with glee, while thinking of new and increasingly painful ways of punishing those who didn't believe in him?"

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

I didn't say that's what God does, I said "it conjures up a picture of .....".
That's what the idea of God doing things to people who didn't believe in him, seems to suggest.

Sometimes I hear of people who find it hard to forgive themselves, or believe that someone else has forgiven them. Occasionally I still think of things that I've done and wince. Imagine feeling like that for all eternity; burning in shame, knowing that your sins , and the biggest sin of all, rejecting God., will never be forgiven.
I'd say that that would be punishment enough for anyone.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Pipp@
I quoted your comment above.
Pipp@
Yeah I don't know exactly where I stand on that subject yet... I'm still working that out
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's an amazingly unbiased presentation on the three common biblical views.
If you haven't already viewed it.

9,623 views Dec 9, 2019
Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[Der Alte]

I didn't say that's what God does, I said "it conjures up a picture of .....".
That's what the idea of God doing things to people who didn't believe in him, seems to suggest.

Sometimes I hear of people who find it hard to forgive themselves, or believe that someone else has forgiven them. Occasionally I still think of things that I've done and wince. Imagine feeling like that for all eternity; burning in shame, knowing that your sins , and the biggest sin of all, rejecting God., will never be forgiven.
I'd say that that would be punishment enough for anyone.

Mea Culpa, My bad I went back and reread your post . I missed the disclaimer in the last sentence. Es tut mir sehr leid.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I think there's more to salvation than what happens after you die. I think salvation also takes place while we are still alive here on earth. Salvation from sin controlling us here and now. Salvation from sin being an obstacle between you and God.

 

[nhisname]

repent in Bible = change of mind/direction, Bible says repent and believe the gospel for salvation, not "repent of your sins (works)" Acts 20:21 "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." God repented more than anyone in the Bible and he doesn't sin.

if you falsely believe and say that repent means "of your sins" to be saved you have 1. added to Gods word 2. believe that Christs death, burial, resurrection wasn't sufficient for sins 3. added to salvation 4. called God a sinner (he repented over 20 times) 5. made salvation works based (follow the law to be/stay saved) which is a false gospel

I believe in repentance for salvation, the biblical repentance not the false "of your sins" works righteousness salvation. and people will falsely accuse you of not believing in repentance when you preach this and then they will falsely throw verses like Luke 13:3 at you, which says nothing about turning from sins and in fact is just talking about physical repentance saying you will likewise perish (Luke 13:3-5). they will hit you with these verses out of context to silence you from preaching grace through faith salvation, it hinders soul winning.

Also they will claim you that you teach license to sin, turned grace into lasciviousness, encourage and glorify sin and falsely claim that you don't believe in repenting of sins at all, but this is a lie, I believe in repent of sins, but not to be saved! Repent of your sins is works,

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Repenting of sins is a daily thing, not apart of our salvation, after salvation we still must die daily, take up our cross, choose to walk in the spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, however we will never be sinlessly perfect until our flesh dies and we go to heaven, Apostle Paul still struggled with Sin, all the apostles sinned after they were saved, yet they all preached against sin, and they never once lost their salvation. Peter denied Christ multiple times and didn't lose his salvation, King Saul, Samson committed suicide and never lost it, Judas committed suicide after he "repented" but went to hell because he was never saved.

Salvation is simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31, entire Gospel of John), if you believe then you sins are covered, if you haven't believed in Christ or believe in your works/repenting your sins or adding anything else to Christs death, burial, resurrection to save you, then you're not saved. this is not "downplaying" or condoning or even encouraging sin at all, this is just explaining the biblical reality of salvation and separating the free gift of eternal life offered freely by Jesus, from our works that we do after we are saved.

John the baptist came baptizing those confessing sins in repentance.

Mark1:15 Jesus said

repent in Bible = change of mind/direction, Bible says repent and believe the gospel for salvation, not "repent of your sins (works)" Acts 20:21 "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." God repented more than anyone in the Bible and he doesn't sin.

if you falsely believe and say that repent means "of your sins" to be saved you have 1. added to Gods word 2. believe that Christs death, burial, resurrection wasn't sufficient for sins 3. added to salvation 4. called God a sinner (he repented over 20 times) 5. made salvation works based (follow the law to be/stay saved) which is a false gospel

I believe in repentance for salvation, the biblical repentance not the false "of your sins" works righteousness salvation. and people will falsely accuse you of not believing in repentance when you preach this and then they will falsely throw verses like Luke 13:3 at you, which says nothing about turning from sins and in fact is just talking about physical repentance saying you will likewise perish (Luke 13:3-5). they will hit you with these verses out of context to silence you from preaching grace through faith salvation, it hinders soul winning.

Also they will claim you that you teach license to sin, turned grace into lasciviousness, encourage and glorify sin and falsely claim that you don't believe in repenting of sins at all, but this is a lie, I believe in repent of sins, but not to be saved! Repent of your sins is works,

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Repenting of sins is a daily thing, not apart of our salvation, after salvation we still must die daily, take up our cross, choose to walk in the spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, however we will never be sinlessly perfect until our flesh dies and we go to heaven, Apostle Paul still struggled with Sin, all the apostles sinned after they were saved, yet they all preached against sin, and they never once lost their salvation. Peter denied Christ multiple times and didn't lose his salvation, King Saul, Samson committed suicide and never lost it, Judas committed suicide after he "repented" but went to hell because he was never saved.

Salvation is simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31, entire Gospel of John), if you believe then you sins are covered, if you haven't believed in Christ or believe in your works/repenting your sins or adding anything else to Christs death, burial, resurrection to save you, then you're not saved. this is not "downplaying" or condoning or even encouraging sin at all, this is just explaining the biblical reality of salvation and separating the free gift of eternal life offered freely by Jesus, from our works that we do after we are saved.

Mark 1:
Repent and believe the good news
Luke13:3,5 Luke 15:10,

Without repentance there is no salvation
Acts 11:18

 

[Saint Steven]

Without repentance there is no salvation
Acts 11:18

Something sounds backwards and limiting about that.
Clearly we are NOT saved by our own repentance.

And many don't understand the difference between confession and repentance.
As I understand it, repentance (turning away) is the intended result of belief. (salvation, in evangelical terms)
All believers are different in this regard. Meaning, each individual lives out their walk in their own way.

Notice what becomes of the believer with no works to reward in the scripture below.
Not sure what bearing repentance had in that situation, but...

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[nhisname]

In the new testament the first knowledge of repentance(turning away from) and baptism came from John the Baptist filled with the Spirit, annoited by God as a prophet. Luke 1:67-80
Without repentance there can't be a regenerative heart (a newness of life) a true believer will show his newness of life with fruit of the Holy Spirit. We are saved through repentance.
Through the Holy Spirit we reap Spiritual fruit that help us in our walk with the Lord. It enables us to do works (deeds) for the Kingdom of the Lord. Not everyone will work towards the kingdom the same. Some may earn a lot of rewards some not any but we are saved by our faith and trust in God. Only The Father knows our heart and what motives were used in our work.

 

[nhisname]

I didn't say that's what God does, I said "it conjures up a picture of .....".
That's what the idea of God doing things to people who didn't believe in him, seems to suggest.

Sometimes I hear of people who find it hard to forgive themselves, or believe that someone else has forgiven them. Occasionally I still think of things that I've done and wince. Imagine feeling like that for all eternity; burning in shame, knowing that your sins , and the biggest sin of all, rejecting God., will never be forgiven.
I'd say that that would be punishment enough for anyone.

Also I have found that whatever you do to someone good or bad it will come back to you.
You reap what you sow. Consequences = God's discipline.