Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

[Rev Wayne]

No, he didn't. We've got you pegged perfectly.

Well, at least YOU will admit to your target being persons. Mike seems to think he's actually involved in "discussion."

And once again, no monitors or rituals, I see.

 

[O.F.F.]

Skip asked: "Oh, BTW: Why is it you won't consider joining the Scottish Rite?"

Wayne answered: "Asked and answered. To repeat, I don't want to."

Why not? Especially since you talk from both-sides of the same neck, with the double-headed-standard of your hypocritical Masonic position. It bears a resemblance of their crest.

Sorry to disappoint you, but "I'm teflon, you're glue, bounces o.f.f. me and sticks to you."

Since you can't seem to get Freemasonry right, I guess it's not too surprizing that you can't even get a children's rhyme right either.

For the record it's, "I'm rubber, you're glue." Nothing cooked on teflon is expected to stick to it, but certainly nothing is expected to 'bounce' from it either.

But you should've known that already; and probably meant to say, "I'm a double-headed-hypocritical fool, compromising my 'Christian' profession of faith, while being an unMasonic pastor too!"

 

[Rev Wayne]

I guess it's not too surprizing that you can't even get a children's rhyme right either.

No surprise either, that you CAN, nor is it any surprise that you can't spell "surprizing."

I'll let you handle the kid stuff, I'll stick to the Freemasonry, which you have proven to be so totally inept at in this case, that you give up all pretense at any position, and resort to character assassination full bore and unmixed--with accent on the "bore."

while being an unMasonic pastor too!

Since in the example upon which you tried to make that case, the options are, (a) be unMasonic or (b) take a position in denial of what I know to be the Christian truth, there really wasn't any option as far as I'm concerned. I'll take the stand I did any day, and let the chips fall where they may. If that's "unmasonic," so be it. At least it's not un-Christian, like the position YOU were advocating I should take.

And don't think for a minute you've fooled the readers here, they can all easily see, just as I do, that the only reason you keep hammering the "unmasonic" angle, is in hopes that I might actually take your advice, so you can then turn around and accuse me of taking a position that is un-Christian.

And since you apparently make no mention of how YOU as a Masonic pastor care to work within Freemasonry to lead them to Christ

I fail to see exactly how you would expect me to lead anyone to Christ by DENYING Christ when I see Him represented in the phrase "Lion of the Tribe of Judah." You really don't seem to have thought this through at all, because you aren't making sense.

Sorry, but Christ is first in my life. One of His clear titles, easily recognized by Christians with eyes to see it, is the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah." Wherever I see it I recognize it as Christ. That includes when I see it in Masonry, because I still recognize it for where it comes from, being the exact same phrase. In fact, it has been stated in Masonic opinion:

The phrase, “lion of the tribe of Judah,” therefore, when used in the Masonic ritual, referred in its original interpretation to Christ, him who “brought life and immortality to light.”

It could hardly be otherwise, being as it is, a singular reference to Jesus Christ, easily identifiable as the phrase found in Revelation 5:5.

And despite your apparent opinion to the contrary, labeling me "unmasonic" isn't about to change that fact one whit. Nor are any of your other o.f.f.-topic, o.f.f.-base, and o.f.f.-the-mark accusations going to accomplish that either. If you can't produce anything from Masonry to present any further argument after your earlier failed attempt, you could have the decency to do the readers a favor, and simply shut up. Continuing this denigration tactic you have unfortunately chosen, only brings down further embarrassment upon your own head.

I really take no satisfaction at all in watching you publicly self-destruct.

 

[Skip Sampson]

In fact, it has been stated in Masonic opinion:

Mackey may have said that but we have 11 GL's that take the opposite view. I'll see if I can find a GL that specifically states that the phrase refers to Christ alone in the MM degree. Cordially, Skip.

 

[O.F.F.]

At least it's not un-Christian, like the position YOU were advocating I should take..., so you can then turn around and accuse me of taking a position that is un-Christian.

You've already taken an un-Christian position the moment you became a Mason. And all you have been doing ever since, is try to make people believe that Freemasonry is actually Christianity "veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols," which is an unMasonic position to take. Just face the facts, you can't have it both ways pastor.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You've already taken an un-Christian position the moment you became a Mason. And all you have been doing ever since, is try to make people believe that Freemasonry is actually Christianity "veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols," which is an unMasonic position to take. Just face the facts, you can't have it both ways pastor.

You can't have it any way at all, since you continue to make false statements, and since you STILL have presented nothing of any material value for several posts now.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Mackey may have said that but we have 11 GL's that take the opposite view. I'll see if I can find a GL that specifically states that the phrase refers to Christ alone in the MM degree. Cordially, Skip.

Wow, Skip, where were you? Several have already posted, all of which are direct references to Christ, the only referent of the phrase "Lion of the Tribe of Judah," which comes directly from Revelation 5:5. Sorry you missed them, take another look:

Thus we close the explanation of the emblems upon the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but we are suddenly revived by the ever-green and ever-living sprig of faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which strengthens us with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immortality; and we doubt not but that in the glorious morning of the resurrection our bodies will be raised and become as incorruptible as our souls. (Alabama Masonic Manual, MM degree, 1911, p. 84; Also in Alabama Masonic Ritual, 1984, p. 68)

Then, when our dissolution draws nigh, and the cold winds of death come sighing around us--and his chill dews already glisten upon our foreheads--with joy shall we obey the summons of the Grand Warden of Heaven, and go from our labors on earth to eternal refreshment in the paradise of God, where, by the benefit of the pass of a pure and blameless life, and an unshaken confidence in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, shall we gain ready admission into the celestial lodge where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. There, placed at His right hand, He will be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons. (Illinois Book of Ceremonials, Masonic Funeral Service, 1931, p. 104; also in Illinois Official Monitor, 1916, p. 63; Also in Illinois Standard Monitor, 1906, p. 58 Also in Illinois Official Monitor, 1962, p. 77-78; Also in Illinois Standard Work, 1986, p. 165-66)

Be ye careful to perform your allotted task while it is yet day for ye know not when the time is; ye know not when the Master cometh--at even, at midnight, or in the morning. Continue to listen to the voice of Nature, typified by the Sprig of Acacia, that ever-green and ever-living FAITH in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, which bears witness that even in this perishable frame resides a vital and immortal principle, which inspires a holy confidence that the Lord of Life will enable us to trample the king of terrors beneath our feet, and strengthens us with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immmortality; and we doubt not that on the glorious morn of the Resurrection our bodies will rise and become as incorruptible as our souls. (Kentucky Monitor, 1987, MM degree, p. 151-52)

Be ye careful to perform your allotted task while it is yet day for ye know not when the time is; ye know not when the Master cometh--at even, at midnight, or in the morning. Continue to listen to the voice of Nature, typified by the Sprig of Acacia, that ever-green and ever-living FAITH in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, which bears witness that even in this perishable frame resides a vital and immortal principle, which inspires a holy confidence that the Lord of Life will enable us to trample the king of terrors beneath our feet, and strengthens us with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immmortality. (Louisiana Monitor, MM Degree, 1957, p. 130)

Thus we close the explanation of the emblems upon the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation is dark and gloomy, for by * * * * * by Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, we are strengthened with confidence and composure to look forward to the grave; and to doubt not but in the glorious morn of the resurrection, our bodies will be raised, and become as immortal as our souls. (Maryland Manual, MM degree, 1935, p. 51)

Thus we close the explanation of the emblems upon the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but we are suddenly revived by the evergreen and everliving sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which strengthens us with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immortality; and doubt not, but in the glorious morning of the resurrection, our bodies will rise and become as incorruptible as our souls. (North Dakota Monitor, MM degree, 1965, p. 144)

You have been impressed with the thought that what is called Death is not the end, and that because of our faith in God and by reason of the Strength of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, there is no death to that imperishable part of man,--the Soul. (North Dakota Monitor, MM degree, 1965, p. 151)

Thus we close the explanation of the emblems upon the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but we are suddenly revived by the ever-green and ever-living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which strengthens us, with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality; and doubt not but that on the glorious morning of the resurrection, our bodies will rise, and become as incorruptible as our souls. (Tennessee Craftsman, MM degree, 1953, p. 101-02)

Nearly twenty centuries ago Gamaliel, a learned doctor of the Jewish law, gave expresssion to this truth, "if this counsel of this work be of men, it will come to naught; but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it."
The survival of Masonry throughout the ages, when all else has passed away, is one of the strongest collateral evidences that we have of its Divine origin and supernatural excellence. Let us, then, study it in the light of its own God-given revelations, practice its principles and worship the God of Masonry at its altars as long as we live. Then, when the mallet of Death shall call us hence, may each one of us, by faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, be welcomed to a blessed immortality, and, in the glorious morn of the Resurrection, may our bodies rise and become as incorruptible as our souls. (Texas Monitor, 1908, Introduction, p. 21)

Brethren--Before I declare the Lodge closed, let us unite in humbly acknowledging our dependence on the Most High. May His right hand be as a shield and buckler to us against the assaults of our enemies; and, at the final day, may each and every one of us be raised, through the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, to the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Grand Master forever presides--forever reigns. AMEN. (Texas Monitor, 1908, At Closing in the Third Degree, p. 27)

Thus we close the explanations of this degree with the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but the good Mason is suddenly revived by the ever green and ever living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah; which strengthens him with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality; and doubts not but that on the glorious morning of the resurrection, his body will rise, and become as incorruptible as his soul. (Texas Monitor, 1908, MM degree, p. 111)

These emblems force upon us the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but the Master Mason is suddenly revived by the ever green and ever living Sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which strengthens him with confidence and composure, to look forward to a glorious immortality beyond the grave. (Virginia Manual of Work, MM degree, 1977, p. 53)

What doth the Lord require of thee, O man, but to do justly and love mercy and walk humbly with thy God. And one of the elders sayeth unto me: "Rejoice ye and be exceedingly glad: behold the Lion of the Tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book and loosen the seven seals thereof." These words from the Book of the Law remind us of the two great symbols of Freemasonry and that for which they stand --the white lamb-skin apron and the sprig of acacia.
The lamb-skin, representing he that takes away the sins of the whole world and gives us that great peace which man cannot understand. The apron, representing the earth crowned by the triangle of the flap representing Deity, symbolizes for us the Brotherhood of man under the Fatherhood of God. The sprig of acacia represents that immortal or better part of man which, through the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, survives the grave. By it we are also reminded of the promise of the resurrection of the body, which will arise and become as incorruptible as our soul. (Virginia Manual, Lodge Memorial Service, 1977, p. 116)

As we, too, shall come, one by one, to the end of the day, may the twilight be illumined by a radiant glow; and may we fall asleep without alarm and fearless, with the sublime conviction that we shall be raised through the power of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, nad find a new home and perfect haven in that spiritual building, that house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Amen. (Washington Monitor, Funeral Service, 1949, p. 153; Also in Washington Monitor, 1983)

Thus we close the explanation of the emblems upon the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but we are suddenly revived by the evergreen or everliving sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which strengthens us with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality. (Wisconsin Monitor, MM degree, 1927, p. 66)

"What doth the Lord require of thee, 0 man, but 'to do justly and love mercy and walk humbly with thy God.'" "And one of the elders sayeth unto me: 'Rejoice ye and be exceedingly glad-behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book and to loosen the seven seals thereof," reminding us of two of the great symbolisms of Masonry - the white lamb-skin apron and the sprig of acacia.
The white apron, representative of the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world; the good Mason is constantly reminded by the ever living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah which strengthens him with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immortality and doubts not but that in the glorious morn of the Resurrection, his body will rise and become as incorruptible as his soul; and thus death is not a cessation of life, but only an incident in it. (Memorial Service, Texas Manual)

Free Masons, therefore, who stand about an open grave, remember the Lion of the tribe of Judah, whose strong grip will some day seize them though dead, and raise them to stand for judgment before their Maker. (Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of New York, 1898, p. 204)

"To the writer the past year has been one of sorrow and bereavement. We have been called to stand before the open grave of a loved companion who for many years has shared our joys and sorrows, and without revelation the future is indeed dark and gloomy, but we rejoice that through the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah we can look forward to a joyful resurrection and reunion with the loved ones gone before." (Annals of the Grand Lodge of Iowa, 1901, Vol. 17, p. xvii)

Whether it had its origin with the first organized worship, or in the light of modern records, or at any intervening period, no rays of light fall upon its existence, or supposed existence, that does not show, standing out like monuments along the path of Time, as clear as Gibraltar when you enter between the pillars through the outer gates of the ancient world, great pyramids of truth deduced from the aggregated facts of the ages to commemorate the preeminent principle, that behind the movements of the universe there is a will mightier than the inertia of matter, a Supreme Architect, who is the Alpha and Omega of Masonry; that He is our loving and beloved Father, and that as His children we are, and ought to be, devoted to each other's welfare, and that through the mediation of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah we shall be raised from the grave to inherit eternal life. (Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Nova Scotia, 1896, p. 267)

'Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.' Enter now into.the Holy of Holies, and as a reward for your Faith and Belief in the saving influence of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, as exemplified and transfigured by you in a previous degree, you will receive the ineffable and Holy Word, so beautifully spoken of by St. John, in his first chapter of the Gospel of that inspired Apostle, and which occurs but once in the Holy writings, (Psalms 68: 4,) and fits you for an entrance into that 'house, not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens.' (Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia, 1873, p. 59)

 

[Rev Wayne]

And the rest, since there are so many they won't all fit in one post:

It [Masonry] reminds us of our rude and helpless estate by nature, and inspires the hope of reaching a higher and a better life, in knowledge and virtue, and by the exercise of exalted human endeavor, under the blessing of the Almighty Father; it sets before us as exemplars the Holy Evangelists; it commends to us the Holy Scriptures as the man of our councils and the guide of our lives; it symbolizes hope and truth, in immortal green; it seeks to plant in every soul a "living sprig" of faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah; and with all these, it inculcates benevolence and charity. (Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Georgia, 1895, p. 84)

These emblems force upon us the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but the Master Mason is suddenly revived by the ever green and ever living Sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which strengthens him with confidence and composure, to look forward to a glorious immortality beyond the grave. (Virginia Text-Book, MM degree, 1899, p. 226)

Lion of Tribe of Judah: Solomon was the original of the "lion of the Tribe of Judah" phrase, but in later years, Christ was said to have been characterized by this expression; our ritual was formulated at a time when Christianity was dominant in England, and this is possibly a relic of that period. (Ray V. Denslow, Transactions of the Missouri Lodge of Research, Part 8, 2003, p. 56)

Mankind has placed many laws upon the statute books to suppress crime. They deter crime, but do not raise the standard of humanity. Mankind has sought by altruism to upraise humanity, but in vain. The only grip by which man can be raised to a living perpendicular is the strong grip of the Lion of the tribe of Judah. (Abstract of the Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania, 1915, p. 297)

O Lord God Jehovah, Source of all wisdom, beneficence and love, we Thy humble suppliants yield Thee high praise and most hearty thanks that Thou, of Thy infinite goodness, hast brought us together in peace and quietness. We come to lay the foundation of a house which is to be erected for the glory of Thy name. We pray Thee of Thine infinite mercy that the Temple may thus have a most sure foundation, for without Thee all our undertakings are but in vain. We beseech that this and all our works may be not only begun, but continued and ended in Thee . . . . If tyranny in any form seeks to enslave us, may our beloved Rite be in the van to strike from the limbs of the brethren the shackles of its slavery. May we thus stand before all men as the apostles of enlightenment, upon the tried stone of Thy love. All of which we ask, through the merits of the Prince, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Amen. (Prayer at the laying of a cornerstone, Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia, 1911, p. 54)

Lion of the Tribe of Judah: Jesus Christ (Masonic Glossary, Acimnos Ceihpr, 1946, p. 243)

When it came time for this mortal to put on immortality, and this corruptible to put on incorruption, he died in the glorious triumph of immortality and in the full assurance that the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath conquered. (Huntington Brown, funeral oration for John Blyth, Proceedings of the Supreme Council for the Nothern Jurisdiction, 1905, p. 259)

Lion of the Tribe of Judah- In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the "lion's whelp" is used emblematically of strength. Hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, "The lion of the tribe of Judah," is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of God's Kingdom. ("Masonic Words and Phrases," website of Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Washington)

Most Worshipful Sir, as we bid you farewell, we reaffirm our faith in the redeeming power of Judah Lion and the admonishment that each of us received on our first admission into the lodge. “May it be your portion to hear from Him who sitteth as the Judge Supreme, the welcome words — ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; enter thou into the joy of thy Lord’.” (NC Proceedings 2002, p. 95, at the passing of PGM Cecil Johnson Liverman)

 

[O.F.F.]

Wayne, can you post something currently being used; like that which has been published within the last decade? The hundred year old material you posted is no longer being used in any of those jurisdictions. Therefore it is immaterial to the discussion; and consequently it is inadmissible evidence that doesn't support your position one iota. By the way, "proceedings" are NOT considered monitorial at all.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Several have already posted, all of which are direct references to Christ, the only referent of the phrase "Lion of the Tribe of Judah," which comes directly from Revelation 5:5.

I really don't know how you can be so oblivious. You should have read my comment before diving into the cesspool of cut & paste:

I'll see if I can find a GL that specifically states that the phrase refers to Christ alone in the MM degree.

Go back and look at your selections and find the one that says Lion of the Tribe of Judah = Christ. The only one meeting that criteria was from a PH GL; these rest merely mentioned the phrase without defining it.

Several of your quotes are from five GL's which clearly have redefined the phrase and you have been provided those selections. You managed to miss that completely in your haste, to cut & paste... Lastly, Lodges of Research, the SR/NJ and W.W. Daggett are not GL's. I mean, do you actually think before you respond?

In the future, you really need to read both my posts and your responses before firing your chaff launchers (feel free to use the term yourself). It will save you further embarrassment, assuming you can still be embarrassed by what you write. Cordially, Skip.

P.S. - I made a little bet with myself that you'd answer just as you did, and sure enuff.... Got ya pegged, fer shure.

 

[O.F.F.]

Go back and look at your selections and find the one that says Lion of the Tribe of Judah = Christ. The only one meeting that criteria was from a PH GL; these rest merely mentioned the phrase without defining it.

Poor thing, Wayne doesn't know the difference between Freemasonry uttering a phrase from defining the same phrase. Yet he is under the misconception to expect that an organization that accepts any religious faith to define ALL its terms, symbolism and phrases from a Christian perspective. How much more foolish can any one Mason be?

 

[Rev Wayne]

Several of your quotes are from five GL's which clearly have redefined the phrase and you have been provided those selections.

Already covered that. They have not redefined the monitors, and the monitors take precedence over what YOU cited.

Which, by the way, I see you STILL have not managed to locate even one that supports your claims.

Lodges of Research, the SR/NJ and W.W. Daggett are not GL's.

Nobody said they were. But check out the Lodges of Research cited, and you will find those lodges' very EXISTENCE is by virtue of having been created, governed, and continued by will of the Grand Lodge. Can't believe you'd be that asinine about it. As for Daggett, he happens to be the author of Acimnos Ceihpr, a coded version of the ritual which is employed by more Grand Lodges than any other version. Can't believe you'd be foolish enough to try to make such a pretense either, since I'm sure you were already aware of the facts. Your comments on these particular points are just like your continued boo-hooing about having no ritual or monitor source to back you up. Do you actually think before you respond? I say the answer to that is yes, and the thought you engage the most is, "dumb it down and pretend these things don't say what they say, in hopes the readers are complete idiots."

As for the one from S.R., you are correct, but only because it was from teh proceedings of the Northern Jurisdiction. Had it been one of the bodies as constituted within the boundaries of a Grand Lodge jurisdiction, there is sufficient precedent established to suggest that Grand Lodges consider appendant bodies to fall under their jurisdiction. (There always stands the possibility, too, that even though the man who died had been involved in Scottish Rite, and even though the funeral service oration was recorded in SR proceedings, the service itself might have been a simple Masonic ceremony. Scottish Rite does, I understand, have more restrictions upon what circumstances must exist before they perform funeral ceremonies.)

But the amusing thing is, all you show is, one such instance, out of 29 cited. Totally underwhelming stuff. And even then, you don't change the fact that it's still one more source with the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" Christian designation for Christ in it--it's just not a Grand Lodge source. So all you really manage to show is, "Oops, you inadvertently cited one from Scottish Rite."

It will save you further embarrassment, assuming you can still be embarrassed by what you write.

Why should I be embarrassed by false responses coming from you, when all you have to offer are smoke and mirrors, to try to deceive someone into believing you have some kind of credible case for whatever it is you're trying to do?

I made a little bet with myself

Not surprised at that, egomaniacal pastimes seem to be a hobby of yours. We've seen the outgrowth of them all over this area of the forum, with staircase ladders, rectangular cubes, imaginary phone calls, and GL secretaries engaging in the same self-conversation as you just witnessed to.

Go back and look at your selections and find the one that says Lion of the Tribe of Judah = Christ.

Go back and look at my selections and you will not find one that does NOT refer to Christ. They ALL employ "Lion of the Tribe of Judah," which is a phrase with only one source: Revelation 5:5, a direct reference to Christ. I never thought I'd come across Christians too blind to understand who that is--or too stubborn, which is more likely the case. Funny how antimasons can be so sold out to a lie that they don't even mind denying Jesus Christ in their self-deluded claim to be serving Him.

All of the passages cited illustrate what one Masonic author has already stated:

Whilst Freemasonry delights in opening its portals to all—whatever their religious creed—who hold the great fundamental principles of religion already mentioned, yet, as it has for many ages prevailed chiefly amongst Christian nations, its teachings have been very largely imbued with Christianity, and very many symbols are in general use which admit of no explanation apart from that religion and from the Holy Bible, which in Christian countries is placed upon the altar of every Lodge, read at every meeting, carried in every Masonic procession, and acknowledged as the Great Light of Freemasonry. (Chalmers I. Paton, Freemasonry: Its Symbolism, Religious Nature, and Law of Perfection, Preface)

Interestingly too, Paton also shoots down another argument you guys tried to use as cannon fodder:

If the "symbolic" reference is strictly limited to "Christian" Masons' interpretation, and the outcome thereof, then evidently you are saying to all non-Christian Masons. . .

If this is not what you mean to be saying, then what are the implications to them [non-Christian Masons] of what you just claimed? . . .

This is an interesting 'catch-22' [a dilemma from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions] you've gotten yourself into.

To address that false bit of sophistry, here's Paton again, from the preface to the same work:

I have written as a Christian, and perhaps, therefore, the work may be deemed more suitable to Freemasons who are Christians than to those of other religions. It would have been wrong, and contrary to the laws of Christianity and of Freemasonry, for me to disguise or conceal my religious sentiments.

Hadn't thought of it that way before, but Paton is right. Freemasonry everywhere tells the Mason he is free to interpret from his own viewpoint. Not only that, a common statement about Masonry, found on many GL sites, and with the Masonic Service Association as its point of origin, says:

Freemasonry supports Religion. Freemasonry is far from indifferent toward religion. Without interfering in religious practice, it expects each member to follow his own faith and to place his Duty to God above all other duties. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions. (MSA, Short Talk Bulletin)

Since Masonry tells me I may most certainly interpret Masonry from my own viewpoint; since "my own viewpoint" is the viewpoint of Christian faith; since Masonry EXPECTS me to FOLLOW that faith; and since Masonry EXPECTS me to "place my duty to God ABOVE ALL OTHER DUTIES"; and since one of our primary Christian duties is to witness to Christ;

then Paton is absolutely right: it would be UNMASONIC of me to do OTHERWISE than to testify to Christ when I see a PLAIN AND OBVIOUS DESIGNATION LIKE "LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH" right there before me, which I KNOW BEYOND ANY DOUBT is a direct reference to Christ as He is described by the apostle John, one of the "patron saints" of Masonry, in Revelation 5:5.

And I think it's a questionable Christianity for antimasons who CLAIM to be of Christian persuasion, when faced with the choice (1) of acknowledging the Christian source and bearing of a phrase found in Masonry AND in the Holy Bible, or (2) of refusing to acknowledge it because they prefer to create cannon fodder out of it for their foolish and false condemnation of Masonry (and, often, fellow Christians), to opt for the latter, rather than stand for upholding the correct interpretation of a phrase which is a biblical witness to Christ.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Poor thing, Wayne doesn't know the difference between Freemasonry uttering a phrase from defining the same phrase.

Poor thing, Michael doesn't recognize biblical phrases when he sees them.

Yet he is under the misconception to expect that an organization that accepts any religious faith to define ALL its terms, symbolism and phrases from a Christian perspective.

Poor thing, now Michael is delusional and thinks "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" constitutes "ALL the terms and symbolism of Freemasonry."

How much more foolish can anyone one antimason be?

Think I'll let him stew awhile and go watch some fireworks.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Poor thing, Wayne doesn't know the difference between Freemasonry uttering a phrase from defining the same phrase. Yet he is under the misconception to expect that an organization that accepts any religious faith to define ALL its terms, symbolism and phrases from a Christian perspective. How much more foolish can any one Mason be?

How true. All we can do is keep his feet to the fire. He wants to be seen as a writer in line with Hutchinson, Cross and Oliver, but ends up in the line of Larry, Curly and Moe.

At least we've taught him different words and phrases, so his posts are somewhat improved. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

How true. All we can do is keep his feet to the fire. He wants to be seen as a writer in line with Hutchinson, Cross and Oliver, but ends up in the line of Larry, Curly and Moe.

At least we've taught him different words and phrases, so his posts are somewhat improved. Cordially, Skip.

Still no monitors or rituals, Skip? Oh, that's right, I forgot, you can't even come up with any substance lately, much less some that would be definitive. So by comparison, and to borrow from your chosen analogy, your input winds up about like Shemp--no, that's too much credit, make that Curly Joe.

 

[O.F.F.]

Still no monitors or rituals, Skip?

Still no CURRENT monitors or rituals, Wayne?

Wayne, can you post something currently being used; like that which has been published within the last decade? The hundred year old material you posted is no longer being used in any of those jurisdictions. Therefore it is immaterial to the discussion; and consequently it is inadmissible evidence that doesn't support your position one iota. By the way, "proceedings" are NOT considered monitorial at all.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Still no CURRENT monitors or rituals, Wayne?

Beats no monitors or rituals at ALL, so I'll gladly take it.

Still no REAL challenge, Michael? I've posted ample material from recent sources, too, enough to show that nothing has changed on this one, despite your attempt to claim it to be so with a handful of snippet quote-mines from NON-MONITORIAL sources.

You guys should have figured there'd be repercussions when you first went the direction you did with the North Carolina incident, about what kind of materials supersede others. Now your chickens have come home to roost, along with the mess they make, and all you guys seem to be able to do is pretend it doesn't smell, and try to blame their presence on me. I'd say it's a fate that was well-earned.

 

[O.F.F.]

I've posted ample material from recent sources

That's a crock of bull; and YOU know it! What you've posted dates back 138 years ago, from 1873, and NO recent than 1994 (nearly two decades ago). That is NOT recent, and you certainly have NOT posted ANYTHING that can be considered "ample" that has been published within the last 10 years!

Not only have you proven to be an unChristian, unMasonic pastor, you've shown you are a dishonest one too!!!

 

[Rev Wayne]

Wayne, can you post something currently being used; like that which has been published within the last decade? The hundred year old material you posted is no longer being used in any of those jurisdictions. Therefore it is immaterial to the discussion; and consequently it is inadmissible evidence that doesn't support your position one iota. By the way, "proceedings" are NOT considered monitorial at all.

Can't believe you'd even GO there. The "monitorial or not" issue we already covered. This second thread by this title, that started out defined as being limited to "monitorial," was later expanded to include any and all Grand Lodge (or "Grand Lodge-generated") sources. Skip later introduced into the mix (with your backpatting, of course) the further notation concerning a "pecking order" of GL materials. Of course, he had "rituals and monitors" at the top, by his own insistence, and as we all know has gone to great lengths in his efforts to reverse that decision. But I'm gonna follow your own comments on that one, and "hold his feet to the fire."

One note I would make, though, on "proceedings." What those are, is an official record of Grand Lodge transactions that take place when a Grand Lodge holds its annual session. Nobody's gonna try to tell me THAT'S not significant. It's very similar to what happens with my denomination holding Annual Conference, and then a transcript of all the official proceedings of the session being printed up in the Conference Journal, whereby the Journal becomes the official sourcebook for any changes that have occurred, for what pastors are appointed to what charges, for the outcome of voting on various issues and policies, for what persons hold positions on what conference committees, the whole works. It's an official transcript of official business. The same is true of the Transactions/Proceedings publications of lodges. Anyone trying to dismiss Grand Lodge proceedings as something irrelevant in this discussion, is clueless about the nature of such publications.

As for the "hundred-year-old" material being "inadmissible evidence," I guess you and Skip should have thought of that before he started citing Albert Mackey as his primary source in his initial assault on the first posts I entered on "The Perect Ashlar" thread. It sounds pretty ridiculous when you start saying one thing and doing another--not to mention, there's another word for it, which I use only reservedly if at all, while you guys toss it around as a pet accusation all the time.

As I mentioned when I posted it, the Florida post I entered on the matter is current. As far as I am able to determine, the Kentucky Monitor material is also current. Both of those GL's are slow to change ritual materials--as are all GL's, really, most of them still essentially reflect Webb's ritual of nearly TWO hundred years ago, making a "hundred year old" accusation seem pretty lame when you come down to it.

Also, though I haven't posted from them, I have several ritual sources which easily fit that "within the last decade" description, which have the same material as already posted--and since it is monitorial, many of them even have it written out in the rituals as well, even though the rest of the material is generally coded. As a general policy, though, I don't post from those. My own take on it is, that it would probably be okay to do so with those which ARE written out even in those sources. The Masonic injunction against revealing such material is a prohibition against revealing in such a way "that the secrets of Masonry are thereby revealed." With material that is clearly already revealed, I think it's a no-brainer that it wouldn't be any violation. Nevertheless, I remain reticent to do so, probably a choice that was influenced greatly by time spent at TheLodgeroom.com, because our brethren "across the pond" are far more careful in that regard than we ever thought of being.

Besides, with no ritual or monitorial material forthcoming from you guys, and with both of you increasingly revealing the emptiness of your coffers with every attempt to ramp up the ad hominem stuff, what I've already posted has been more than sufficient.

Another note I would make, or more correctly, which I will repeat: monitorial and ritual sources tend to be more symbolic and less explanatory. So the claims y'all keep trying to make about those sources not making direct statements, is a non-issue. Those sources do not, generally speaking, come across with very much directness on a lot of the symbols at all, on this or any other subject, other than those commonly covered in the lectures. Moreover, the section in which the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" comment appears, is stated in many monitors to be "not monitorial," and therefore could only be received as part of the esoteric work. The point being, if it WERE monitorial in those as well, I'd be presenting far more monitorial materials than you've already seen.

Another point I might bring up as well: since our friend Skip likes to brag about having access to all sorts of current monitors and rituals, as if he really believes the little story he tells about how he comes across them (if he in fact truly does at all), he really ought to have far more at his command than I currently do, when it comes to accessing recent stuff. Do you not find it, as I do, a rather significant omission on his part, if there were anything found in those sources to counter what has posted, for him not to post it here? That in itself speaks volumes about the position y'all have tried to take a stance for on this thread.

But hey, thanks for at least attempting to say something relevant.

 

[Rev Wayne]

What you've posted dates back 138 years ago, from 1873,

Gee, Michael, which one was that?

I'm sure you have only one specific work in mind, since I've posted from all across the spectrum on this. You should be more comprehensive in your approach to what I've posted, you only do yourself a disservice with false accuastions like this one, by which you try to imply that an 1873 date somehow characterizes the bulk of what I've posted. That's simply not true.

and NO recent than 1994 (nearly two decades ago).

Not true. There have been several things I've posted which come from CURRENT GRAND LODGE WEBSITES. That's about as "recent" as you can possibly get. Besides, when it comes to ritual and monitor content, two decades is a passing moment when it comes to Masonic materials. You know that as well as I do.

That is NOT recent, and you certainly have NOT posted ANYTHING that can be considered "ample" that has been published within the last 10 years!

Perhaps what you're talking about at this point, is the most recent REPOST of what came only from ritual or monitor--a collection which I posted mainly in response to comments from Skip in only ONE specific exchange. That in no way negates what I had already posted EARLIER, from which that repost was gleaned. Within that earlier post, came SEVERAL quotes that were drawn directly from online Masonic glossaries and dictionaries that appear on Grand Lodge websites. Those dictionaries and glossaries have a very common feature they all seem to share: as a group, they represent, by FAR, the most consistent Masonic interpretation of "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" as CHRIST---than you will find ANYWHERE else.

I find that to be strikingly significant: that in the one place where you would expect to get to the heart of the matter of "How does Masonry interpret 'Lion of the Tribe of Judah?'--they OVERWHELMINGLY come across with the answer that it represents Jesus Christ. You see, Masonry was at one time very catechistic, just as churches once were; i.e., a very popular form of instruction was "question and answer." And there's good reason for that, it's one of the most direct methods, asking simple questions, and giving brief, simple answers. These days, the closest you get to that format in Masonry, is when you consult Masonic dictionaries and glossaries. And the place to find those most easily, in accord with your insistence on "the last ten years," without spending a fortune on monitors and/or other materials obtained from a Grand Lodge: is to go to the places where Grand Lodges make that kind of information most readily and freely available--their official GL websites. A strong addition to those, also, is the glossary found in the Heirloom Masonic Bible, which is very direct in stating it to be Jesus Christ; likewise with the glossary in the Acimnos Ceihpr, in use in MANY jurisdictions, which solidifies it even further.

As for your new-found insistence on "monitorial"--but like I said, you already tried that one earlier, and it won't wash--and it's pretty disingenuous, since neither one of you has posted even ONE monitorial source to this point. We've been operating for most of the duration of this thread, under the amended statement indicating that any and all Grand Lodge materials are under consideration. No way you can start insisting on "monitors and rituals only" at this point--especially after Skip has gone so far out of his way to reverse his earlier pecking order to try to make his precious LSME quotes appear to be more authoritative.

I have to give you guys an A for effort, no doubt about it, you've really outdone yourselves in trying to weasel your way out of a decidedly tough spot. But I give you an F for results, because of (1) the attempt to reverse a pecking order that Skip himself asserted earlier; and (2) the fact that neither of you has presented one single monitor or ritual source that supports the assertion you are trying to make.

It's pretty clear why you find yourselves in the predicament you're in: you set the stage for the whole thing earlier, in other discussions, with an insistence on monitors and rituals being primary among GL documents; and added to it further with a pecking order established, and insistences being made concerning what type materials trump what other type materials. Interesting bit of irony in that one, too, that in that earlier case it was Skip trumping my LSME quote, and now it's me trumping his.