Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

[O.F.F.]

Wayne:​

Your long list has several problems, the most glaring of which is that you didn’t think it through first. It was standard fare for you: all cut & paste, with neither analysis nor thought.

Your assumption is that any Mason who mentions a Christian or Biblical concept means he’s speaking with direct reference to the biblical understanding. We disagree. What you continue to miss is that Freemasonry, like many false religions, redefines common Biblical terms for their own edification.

The phrase ‘Lion of the Tribe of Judah’ is a perfect example. As Mike and I have pointed out, the phrase, when used Masonically in authoritative GL documents, doesn’t refer to our savior at all, but rather points to any person that a Mason may believe to be a messiah figure.​

This can be proven. In the vast majority of your GL references, the phrase is used without further definition. In your universe, there is no other definition but the Christian one, but that isn’t true within Masonry. In many GL’s using that phrase, they take care to redefine it to make it more acceptable to all religious viewpoints. Using some of the GL’s you referenced, here are examples of how they define the phrase:

Other GL's carry the same themes:​

Once the entire picture is studied, one finds that your view is simply unsupportable, and that Freemasonry, at the GL level, does indeed redefine the biblical view to make it acceptable to Masonry. And self-professed Christians within the Craft do nothing about it.

A second, smaller, problem you get into is relying too much on sources without actually looking into them. For example, you quoted both the Phoenix website and Mackey, apparently without realized the former apparently got the quote from the latter (E.R. Johnson may have done the same). As well, the Phoenix quote misrepresented Mackey in that they compressed Mackey’s article without indicating something had been left out. ​

A third element of interest is what you didn’t pick up on when sending along your quotes. Your lack of consideration of the implications of your quotes often presents you with a real problem. For example: I thought you said Christians didn’t face judgment. Oh, that’s right: he’s talking about Masons.Do you find it interesting that Jesus is not enough for salvation according to the IL GL? One must have a pure and blameless life also. I wonder where in the Bible it states that God will “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons?” Must reflect the thought of many Masons that Masonry is itself of divine origin, as this quote further indicates:

​

And did you read this one before you posted it? Hardly know where to start to address the offensive nature of that post. Sound familiar? In several jurisdictions it applies to Hiram Abif, not ‘the Christian.’ Wonder how it changed from Cross’ time to today.

You really should spend more time analyzing things before you post them. Cordially, Skip.​

 

[O.F.F.]

Unfortunately for your attempt at criticism, we are not dealing with such generic forms.

No pastor, unfortunately your attempt to circumvent your own Masonic "template" position is a straw man fallacy that further reiterates your hypocritical, self-destructive, self-delusional, self-contradictory claim in the first place.

We are currently addressing a very specific and very Messianic reference, "Lion of the Tribe of Judah."

Wrong again, seminary-trained one, we are currently addressing a very open-interpretation because of its very MASONIC reference to the SYMBOLISM of the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah," which has only been my point all along; and which Skip has just eloquently shown; and by your VERY OWN words (via your infamous "template" analogy) YOU are now choking on!

Therefore, I stand by what me and Skip have posted, and reiterate once more, "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" as a MASONIC phrase has any number of designations!!!

And I still find it appalling that Christians, no matter how well-meaning they may consider their efforts to be, would continue to go to such great lengths in railing against another Christian's recognition of the phrase as biblical, or would go to such great lengths in offering their support for opinions to the contrary.

What is more appalling is for a Masonic pastor, no matter how well-intentioned he may consider his futile efforts to be, would continue to go to such great lengths in railing against the MASONIC recognition of the phrase as anything but biblical, knowing the abundant MASONIC opinions that SUPPORT his own personal opinion on the matter (the ENTIRE SYMBOLIC SYSTEM OF FREEMASONRY).

 

[O.F.F.]

Happy 4th of July to all US Citizens!!!

 

[Rev Wayne]

Sound familiar? In several jurisdictions it applies to Hiram Abif, not ‘the Christian.’ Wonder how it changed from Cross’ time to today.

I guess somebody remembered Masonry was symbolic. Sound familiar? Apparently they decided to insert a symbolic reference in place of the direct one. It appears to have caught on. Didn't change things though. Did you notice how many of the sources were current--and yet STILL declare the Lion of the Tribe of Judah to be Christ, in the places where such declarations are more appropriate (meaning, places other than the symbolic ritual)? You guys really seem to have a problem separating the two. Naturally, the monitorial and ritual sources will be more symbolic than declaratory. And equally natural, sources like online Masonic dictionaries/glossaries tend to be more direct in stating the case for Lion of the Tribe of Judah as Christ. The Heirloom Bible follows that same trend in the glossary material where it is also defined as Christ.

Hardly know where to start to address the offensive nature of that post.

What I see there is an affirmation from a Masonic source, declaring Jesus Christ to be the only sinless one who ever walked this earth. And by "perfect Mason," I see in the reference, "Perfect Builder," which, as the Supreme Architect who contructed the Universe, and as the one who instructs and aids all true builders of that inner temple, He most certainly is.

Do you find it interesting that Jesus is not enough for salvation according to the IL GL? One must have a pure and blameless life also.

So, since you obviously disagree, then are you lobbying for antinomianism?

Guess you don't know your Bible as well as you thought. Mine tells me purity is a definite requirement. Naturally that purity comes through the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, who is Christ. What on earth did you think the "merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah" meant?? But the purity is most certainly required:

Who may ascend the mountain of the LORD?
Who may stand in his holy place?
The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, (Psalm 24:3-4)

The only one who can "stand in the holy place" is one with a pure heart.

Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14)

The only one who will get to see the Lord is the one who is holy, for WITHOUT the inner sanctification and cleansing of the Spirit, we are told, we will NOT see the Lord. Pretty explicit.

The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Revelation 21:23-27)

"Nothing impure will enter it." That's pretty straightforward in declaring that purity will not be an option, but a requirement.

I wonder where in the Bible it states that God will “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons?”

Don't sweat it, the reference is symbolic. I'll explain it for you. Masons are builders. Masonry is about building one's own spiritual temple within. Those who understand it rightly and build on the foundation of Christ, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, will be among those who hear Jesus say "You have been faithful in many things; enter into the joy of your Lord." (It's found in Matthew 25, by the way, sorry you weren't more familiar with it.) Sorry you couldn't grasp it, what with your hyper-literalist bent that prevents you understanding symbolic references. Makes one wonder how you ever manage to understand any of the parables of Jesus--if you truly do, that is.

I thought you said Christians didn’t face judgment.

I never said we don't all go before the judgment seat of Christ. My Bible says ALL will do so, great or small--a point which I've reminded you of more than once in the past. But just because we stand before the judgment seat does not mean we undergo "judgment." When we stand before the Judgment seat, since you seem to have forgotten this, the one sitting there is Jesus Christ, who is also the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, the one who is also called Christ our Passover, and when He sees the blood and recognizes the one standing there as one who has put his faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, judgment will be "passed over" for that person.

Once the entire picture is studied, one finds that your view is simply unsupportable, and that Freemasonry, at the GL level, does indeed redefine the biblical view to make it acceptable to Masonry.

Then why does the evidence show that what the monitors and rituals said over a century ago, they STILL say? And why is it you can't seem to find a monitor that backs up what YOU say? That's just it, you're not LOOKING at the "entire picture," you are snip-quoting in selective fashion to find what your itching ears want to hear. Which is why I posted from the many sources I did, to show your errors of presumption. You've just totally ignored the reality of what was posted. You opt for claims about "what Masons are free to interpret," as a substitute for the reality of what the statements about "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" truly represent. You can't substitute men's opinions for the reality of who "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" IS.

I've already pointed out, and it fell on deaf ears, that the statement, which I see you have quoted again, "All Kings of Judah were therefore called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah," is unsupported, and has no scriptural basis. And since we know that opinion does NOT come from Scripture, then where does it come from, Skip? You never really even TRIED to answer that question when I asked it before, and with good reason: deep down, you KNOW it's not supportable.

What's Jesus going to say when you stand before him on that day and have to tell Him "Gee, I thought 'Lion of the tribe of Judah' referred to Israelite kings, and so I was putting my faith in THEIR merits?" I tend to think that would be pretty embarrassing for you.

In the vast majority of your GL references, the phrase is used without further definition.

Again, you are focusing on the phrase itself, to the exclusion of all context. Maybe YOU think the people who put these things in place were complete idiots, and did not know what they were stating, but the ABUNDANCE of accompanying Christian references that appear in those same passages alongside the LOTTOJ references, certainly shows otherwise. It has only been in recent years that anyone has tried to address that with the intent of changing the status quo which has always understood it as Christ, and those attempts really appear to be reflected only in certain documents which, though Grand Lodge materials, still are not of the same nature and authority as rituals and manuals. Time was when you would have said the same thing, but you have since then reversed polarity and now try to assert LSME booklets and Mentor Manuals over them instead. Easy to see why, since your opinions are not supported when we consult what appears in rituals and monitors.

Apparently you have forgotten, but I haven't, your continual taunt in another discussion, to what I was posting, which I now quote from your own posts, in regard to what YOU are now posting:

I guess you found nothing in the GL monitors or rituals to back up your assertions. (10/30)

All monitorial and ritualistic discussions of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, which would be authoritative, that I've seen do not support your conclusions. (10/31, adapted, of course, to the present discussion)

I just note that they are not monitorial and do not carry the impact of the GL monitors and rituals I've quoted. You've relied on personal opinions where I prefer to take the GL authoritative statements. (11/22)

Gee, no monitors and no rituals. And I still have all the above monitorial quotes that describer "faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah," "Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world," "resurrection of the body," "bodies become as incorruptible as our souls," and other similar Christian references that leave no doubt about what's being said. (11/27, again, adapted to the current discussion)

In the vast majority of your GL references, the phrase is used without further definition. In your universe, there is no other definition but the Christian one, but that isn’t true within Masonry.

You misrepresent what I said on the matter. When you say "the phrase is used without further definition," you are once again trying to isolate the phrase from the context, which is a SEROUS procedural error, as you well know. And no, that's not what I did, because I already called you once on your refusal to consider context. And I posted a collection of the phrases that typically accompany the phrase "Lion of the tribe of Judah," which show CONCLUSIVELY that the phrase does not appear in the vacuum in which you try to reduce the consideration of it, but rather, is filled with OTHER phrases that are just as easily discernible as Christian. Sorry you missed that, here they are again:

"Lion of the Tribe of Judah"--Rev. 5:5
Ye know not when the Master cometh = based on Jesus' statements in Matt. 24
He that taketh away the sins of the world = said of Jesus by John the Baptist
"Peace which man cannot understand" = Paul in Philippians 4
"thru the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah" = Revelation 5:5
"resurrection of the body" = 1 Corinthians 15
"bodies will rise & become as incorruptible as our souls" = 1 Cor. 15
"Right Hand be as a shield & buckler" = various places in Psalms

MOST Masons are Christians, and they do have a better grasp upon these things than you wish to give them credit for. Otherwise, they would have been changing the rituals and monitors long ago, to reflect the things you are trying to assert from elsewhere. Clearly they are not, as your lack of EVEN ONE REFERENCE cited from any ritual or monitor conclusively shows. Those who wish to use their influence--which is apparently what is happening--to change how things are portrayed ELSEWHERE than the monitors, will probably continue to do so, here and there, in a few isolated cases, which is all you've managed to come up with. But they have not made one dent in the big picture, from rituals and monitors, speaking of having "faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah." They may as well be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, for all it will accomplish when all is said and done.

And you still haven't managed to explain how it is that someone Jewish could have "faith in the merits" of a line of Jewish kings, which would thereby lead to his "body being raised, and becoming as incorruptible as his soul?" When you can explain that one, try telling it to someone Jewish. That ought to prove interesting.

It was standard fare for you: all cut & paste, with neither analysis nor thought.

Sorry to disappoint you, but your claim on this is false as well. Sure, there are a few sources that came from the internet, but most of what I presented, I typed myself, directly from the sources quoted. Cut & paste would be nice, I'm sure, but with direct quotes from monitors that are not available online, I'm afraid there's quite a bit more to it than that. Fortunately, I type anywhere between 70-90 words a minute, so it takes more time to find the references than it does to enter them. And during the time spent in that search, there is plenty of time for "analysis and thought."

Besides, your recent reversal of opinions, by which you started web-surfing your material, hardly leaves you room for criticisms of "cut and paste," now does it?

 

[Rev Wayne]

Your assumption is that any Mason who mentions a Christian or Biblical concept means he’s speaking with direct reference to the biblical understanding.

Wow, you're getting about as nifty with that re-frame spin job stuff as Michael! He been giving you lessons?

Actually, "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" really OUGHT to be the only phrase considered necessary to understand the reference as Christian. For anyone familliar with their Bible, it WOULD be. The phrase is clearly biblical, and clearly a SOLITARY reference to Jesus Christ. ANY Christian ought to recognize that phrase as an appellation belonging to Jesus Christ, and recognize it IMMEDIATELY. Why you do not, is pure mystery. In fact, it is easily recognized by many Christians as a NAME of Christ. To illustrate:

When you pray to Jesus as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, you are praying to the one with the power to banish all fear, to the one who watches over you with his fierce protecting love. --Ann Spangler, The Names of God, p. 192

Revelation 5:5 describes Jesus Christ as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. --Robert J. Morgan, He Shall Be Called: 150 Names of Jesus and What They Mean to You)

The One named Lion of the tribe of Judah is the same One the prophet Ezekiel wrote about. --Mary Foxwell Loeks, Names of God: Meditations, p. 82

He [John] entitles the Redeemer the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. v. 5). --William Goode, Essays on All the Scriptural Names and Titles of Christ, p. 55

LIVING THIS NAME
To live effectively in Jesus' name, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, we must recognize that Christ's power as the Lion results from His work as the Lamb (Rev. 5:6). --Dick Eastman & Jack Hayford, Living and Praying in Jesus' Name, p. 93

The lion of the tribe of Judah is Christ (Augustin Calmet, Dictionary of the Holy Bible, p. 631

Christ is the lion of the tribe of Judah. (John Brown, A Dictionary of the Holy Bible, p. 426)

Christ is the lion of the tribe of Judah. (James Wood, A Dictionary of the Holy BIble, p. 111)

The Lion of the tribe of Judah is called "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." (Charles Spear, Names and Titles of the Lord Jesus Christ, p. 233)

Christ is "the lion of the tribe of Judah." (Samuel Fallows, The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 1069)

Thus, in the lion reside courage and victory over antagonists. In these respects it may be and is employed as a symbol of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is called the lion of the tribe of Judah, (Rev. 5:5). (William Goodhugh, The Pictorial Dictionary of the Holy Bible, p. 772)

"The Lion of the tribe of Judah," Rev. 5:5, is Jesus Christ, (Edward Robinson, A Dictionary of the Holy Bible, p. 263)

The lion of the tribe of Judah, mentioned in Rev. v.5, is Jesus Christ,(Richard Watson, A Biblical and Theological Dictionary, p. 588)

The fact that Jesus was connected with the royal tribe of Judah is frequently mentioned, and the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews calls attention to the fact in order to bring out the uniqueness of Christ's Priesthood (He 7:1. In the same way the writer of the Apocalypse calls Him the 'lion of the tribe of Judah' (Rev 5:5). (James Hastings, Dictionary of the Apostolic Church, Vol. 2, p. 618)

Jesus is called "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (Herbert Lockyer, All the Divine Names and Titles in the Bible, p. 190)

Each symbol exactly represents different aspects of the Lord's work. The great closing contest, when "all enemies shall be put under His feet,"brings the mighty conqueror of death and hell before us as "the Lion of the tribe of Judah." (William Dowling, The Names and Titles of Jesus Christ, as Given in the New Testament)

So our Lord, who sprang from the tribe of Judah, (Heb. vii. 14,) is called "the Lion of the tribe of Judah." (James Austin Bastow, A Biblical Dictionary, p. 431)

“Lion of the Tribe of Judah,” an exclusive name & title of Jesus Christ and He alone [Rev 5:5] --moniquemonicat.wordpress.com

"NAMES OF CHRIST"©
-is a book written by Dr. James Modlish-
reprinted here with the author's permission.
THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH
(Revelation 5:5) --thebiblestudypage.com

MEDITATIONS ON THE EXALTED CHRIST
LION FROM THE TRIBE OF JUDAH
--soulatrest.com

The school mascot is Judah the Lion, which is named after a live lion that a faculty member once owned (though the school's Christian background suggests that the name actually derives from one of the names given to Jesus Christ, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah). --wikipedia information page on Southwestern Assemblies of God University

Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah and he is the Lamb of God. --einquisitive.com

Jesus Christ is... Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5) --Praise-and-Worship.com/names-of-Jesus-Christ.html

Jesus: There's just something about that name
Faithful witness
Firstborn from the dead
Lion of the tribe of Judah
--windowtotheword.com

WEEKLY PRAYER GUIDE – PRAYING THE NAMES OF JESUS
Jesus: Lion of the Tribe of Judah
Week 20 – April 10, 2011
Prayer Focus: Proclamation of the Gospel --billygraham.org

NAMES OF JESUS THE CHRIST, YESHUA HA MACHIACH, IESUS CHRISTOS

Beginning of the Creation of God
Good Master
King of Peace
Our Banner
God Manifest in the Flesh
Lion of the Tribe of Judah --tentmaker.org/lists/names-titles-of-jesus-christ

Christ was not Jesus's last name. The name "Christ" was used to identify the Messiah, whom Jesus was. The Son of God. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah. . --urbandictionary.com

THE NAMES OF CHRIST

1. JESUS
2. WONDERFUL
3. COUNSELLOR
4. MIGHTY GOD
5. FATHER OF ETERNITY
6. PRINCE OF PEACE
7. HOLY ONE
8. LAMB OF GOD
9. PRINCE OF LIFE
10. LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
11. LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH --email-bible-lessons.net

Praying the Names of God with Ann Spangler
Names of Jesus Week Fourteen, Day One
LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH --crosswalk.com

Titles and Names of Christ: Lion of the Tribe of Judah --topicalbible.org

the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Governor, Prince of Peace, the Prince of Life, the Prince of the Kings of the earth, the Judge, the King, the King of Israel, King of Saints, King of Glory, King over all the earth, King in His Beauty, King of Kings and Lord of lords.
--christianbookshelf.org

For the Saviour came, not as having changed the gentleness of His own nature, but as the strong Lion of the tribe of Judah, saving them that believe, but treading down the adversary. He is called a Stone, not a lifeless stone, cut out by men's hands, but a chief corner-stone on whom whosoever believeth shall not be put to shame. --St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Lecture #10

They who stand before the throne sing of the Lamb—the Lion of the tribe of Judah, who took the book and broke the seals thereof—" --Charles Spurgeon, "The Kingly Priesthood of the Saints"

Then begins the proper Apocalypse, with the first vision of the throne in heaven, and sitting thereon the Lamb that was slain, who is also the Lion of the tribe of Judah. --Washington Gladden, "Who Wrote the Bible?"

He has many Names in the Bible.
Among them are:

Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20)
Savior (John 4:42)
Servant (Matthew 12:18)
Author & Finisher of Our Faith (Hebrews 12:2
The Almighty (Revelations 1:8)
Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6)
Shiloh (Genesis (49:10)
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Revelation 5:5) --answers.yahoo.com

Jesus Christ is...Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5) --jesuschristis.com/names_of_jesus.html

His Names and Titles
He is the Jehovah, the inheritance, Judge and King of His saints. He is their light, their life, their Lord, their leader, their lawgiver, their atoning lamb, the lily of the valley, the lion of the tribe of Judah.
--holybible.com

NAMES AND TITLES OF JESUS
from Sacred Scripture

Lamb (Rev 5:6, 5:8, 6:16, 7:9, etc.)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Light to the Gentiles (Is 42:6)
Living Bread (John 6:51)
Living Stone (1 Pt 2:4)
Lion of the Tribe Of Judah (Rev 5:5) --home.earthlink.net~mysticalrose/name3.html

Titles & Offices of Lord Jesus, the Christ

Lion of the tribe of Judah
Root of David --biblestudy101.org

What Christ is Called

the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, who rends to pieces the old Dragon, and bruises the Serpent's Head, and Jesus Christ our Lord;
--lightandsilence.org

Names of Our Lord

Lamb of God, John 1:29
Life Eternal, 1 John 1:2
Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Apocalypse 5:5
Living Stone, 1 Peter 2:4
Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 10:48
Lord of All, Galatians 4:1
Lord of Lords, Apocalypse 19:16
Lord Our God, Apocalypse 4:11
--saints.sqpn.com/ncd05673.htm

NAMES OF GOD

Lamb
Lamb of God
Last Adam
Lion of the tribe of Judah
Lord – Kurios
Lord Jesus Christ
Lord of hosts
Lord of lords
Lord of the harvest
--freewebs.com/simplessons/PDFs/NamesofGod.pdf

This concludes the offices and titles of Jesus Christ used through chapter 3. Next we will discuss the titles and offices of, "Lion of the tribe of Juda, and The Root of David, " found in Rev.5:5.
--seekfirstwisdom.com

Names of Christ Screensaver 3.0



Students of the Bible have long turned to the various names used by the Scriptures to refer to Jesus Christ as clues to His character and actions. This screen saver will remind you of several names used in the Scriptures to refer to Christ: the Bright and Morning Star, the Blessed and only Sovereign, the King of the Ages, the Horn of Salvation, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Lord our Righteousness, the Apostle and High Priest of our Confession, the Great High Priest, the Root and the Offspring of David, the Sunrise from on High, the Shepherd and Guardian of your Souls, the Messenger of the Covenant, the Author and Perfecter of our Faith, and the Author of Eternal Salvation. These names of Christ are highlighted against beautiful photographs and accompanied by soul-stirring music.

Wow, imagine that: the Christian dictionaries and glossaries all agree with the Masonic ones we saw earlier, in defining "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" as Jesus Christ. And there is a super-abundance of people around who so connect this with Jesus Christ that they consider it one of His "names."

So many Christians who so easily recognize the phrase for who He is--and you would actually have us believe that the many Christians in the lodge are not going to AUTOMATICALLY understand who this is?????

 

[Rev Wayne]

No pastor, unfortunately your attempt to circumvent your own Masonic "template" position

Sorry, but your misrepresentations have reached their limit here. You tried to insert a comment from at totally different context into this one, and I called you on it. Get over yourself and find another angle, this one did not work for you.

"Lion of the Tribe of Judah" as a MASONIC phrase has any number of designations!!!

Funny thing, how Christian Masons can recognize the phrase as a very specific reference to Jesus Christ, but y'all can't seem to come to grips with it. Are you joining Skip in putting your faith in "the merits of a line of Jewish kings?"

I mean, since you guys seem to think that's a valid suggestion, and that it has "any number of designations," rather than standing up for it as Christians, as the singular reference it is to Christ, you guys really need to join the lodge to get your thinking straighened out, Christians I know in the lodge are certainly not as ignorant of its true meaning as you guys seem to be. Amazing how you guys continue to rant on and on about how much brighter Christians you consider yourselves to be than Christian Masons, and can't even get one as basic as this one straight.

 

[O.F.F.]

Funny thing, how Christian Masons can recognize the phrase as a very specific reference to Jesus Christ, but y'all can't seem to come to grips with it.

What "Christian" Masons recognize is NOT the issue; what Freemasonry has distorted it to mean is what we are talking about, but YOU can't seem to come to grips with it.

Skip said: I wonder where in the Bible it states that God will “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons?”

Wayne replied with: Don't sweat it, the reference is symbolic. I'll explain it for you. Masons are builders. Masonry is about building one's own spiritual temple within. Those who understand it rightly and build on the foundation of Christ, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, will be among those who hear Jesus say "You have been faithful in many things; enter into the joy of your Lord."

Wayne, it is amazing to witness just how much you insult your fellow non-Christian Masonic brethren and don't even know it; or have the decency to even care that you do. If the "symbolic" reference is strictly limited to "Christian" Masons' interpretation, and the outcome thereof, then evidently you are saying to all non-Christian Masons:

1. You are NOT "just and upright Masons!"

2. You are NOT builders!

3. If you are, you are building the WRONG spiritual temple!

3. And you WON'T be going to heaven!

If this is not what you mean to be saying, then what are the implications to them [non-Christian Masons] of what you just claimed?

The statement “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons" is for ALL MASONS; black, white, Jewish, "Christian," Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Pagan, etc., etc. Not just those who profess to be Christian. It's sad enough that from a Christian point of view you are now a Masonic pastor; but from the Lodge's perspective it's even worse to know that you are a very unMasonic pastor.

This is an interesting 'catch-22' [a dilemma from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions] you've gotten yourself into.

 

[Skip Sampson]

It's sad enough that from a Christian point of view you are now a Masonic pastor; but from the Lodge's perspective it's even worse to know that you are a very unMasonic pastor.

Well put. It's no suprise his logic, or that which passes for his logic, is one-sided and ultimately fails.

We're really casting pearls before swine here because Wayne will not see the truth when it's sitting on him. He cannot denigrate Masonry without denigrating himself, so he responds as he does by misdirection, avoidance and "justification by the ton," as though the quantity of quotes equates to quality.

Not really anything new, but more to the degree he is doing it. Well, have a great 4th and give the family my best. In Christ, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Wayne:
There's a phrase used by the military that applies to you: "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your malodorous bovine residue of digestive assimilation." You've managed to fail in both efforts, as your posts neither dazzle nor baffle. Let me make this simple for you:

1. We've proven beyond dispute that the phrase "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" is usually, if not always, redefined in GL training documentation from its Biblical and Christian meaning. This is done for the sole and obvious reason to avoid the truth that Jesus is the sole mediator between man and God, a view that conflicts with Masonry's universalist attitudes and doctrine. Nowhere to my knowledge is the phrase defined in GL monitorial or ritual documents, so the training documentation is where the bait & switch occurs. They are thus complementary and provide the full Masonic meanings. This is also true in the Masonic Great Lights definitions, Jacob's Staircase and elsewhere.

2. Demanding that I explain why Masons teach as they do is a bizarre tactic, but does highlight your total lack of serious investigation. I'd again suggest you address the issue yourself, directly with the GL's in question and see what they say. Keep us advised as to your progress in that matter, because you are showing none here.

3. It's ok to see what you want to see in Masonry, but not when you have to evade the truth in so doing. As I noted to Mike, you are so wrapped up on Freemasonry that if it goes down, so do you. Quite simply, to admit we're right about these matters is to admit you are wrong, which would just about kill your self-esteem. It also points to a deep insecurity complex, something you should think about.

4. Why anyone would want to see Christ through Masonry when He's standing right there in front of you is quite a mystery. Jesus needs no explanation from Masonic ritual, and submitting to the demands of Freemasonry is simply unnecessary, unless you are looking for something else. I think Freemasonry is just a matter of pride for you, and nothing more than that.

5. My views are accurately stated and I'll stand on them as written. But, you may keep finding quotes and I'll keep showing you why such scatter-gun tactics are not a good idea. But do try to think about them before you blast them out into this forum as there are only so many hours in the day and I have other, far more pressing, things to do. Like washing my socks. Cordially, Skip.

P.S. - I would again suggest that your denigration tactics tell the reader far more about you than about us. But, you are what you are. (Oh, feel free to use that phrase; the student should always learn from the teacher.)

 

[Rev Wayne]

There's a phrase used by the military that applies to you: "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your malodorous bovine residue of digestive assimilation." You've managed to fail in both efforts, as your posts neither dazzle nor baffle. Let me make this simple for you:

You've made it wondrously simple already, by following the same tactic you both have tried to no avail for ages: "since the current status of the argument has us over a barrel, let's do everything in our power to convince the readers that we're still right, by leveling every accusation we can possibly come up with to try to make his position out to be something dastardly and heinous, and garnish it on the side with bogus 'reduction to the absurd' arguments, and see if we save any face thereby."
Your "response" is devoid of anything resembling any real argument, and needs only one comment from me:

"I guess you found nothing in the GL monitors or rituals to back up your assertions."

(Skip Sampson, 10/30/2010)

 

[O.F.F.]

Why anyone would want to see Christ through Masonry when He's standing right there in front of you is quite a mystery. Jesus needs no explanation from Masonic ritual...

Absolutely! Jesus stands in plain sight for those that have eyes to see Him, and ears to hear His free invitation for salvation by grace through faith in Him alone. And He certainly doesn't need to be seen by some man-made "system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."

Sincerely in Christ, Mike

 

[Skip Sampson]

"I guess you found nothing in the GL monitors or rituals to back up your assertions."

Asked and answered.

Oh, BTW: Why is it you won't consider joining the Scottish Rite? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Why anyone would want to see Christ through Masonry when He's standing right there in front of you is quite a mystery.

It's a bigger mystery how anyone, especially one professing to be a Christian, can't see Christ when He's right there in front of them, in the thoroughly christological phrase, "Lion of the Tribe of Judah." In that regard, Christians in the lodge are one up on you, they certainly know who it is, whether you do or not.

He certainly doesn't need to be seen by some man-made "system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols."

It's not about "needing" to be.

Likewise, He didn't "need" to be portrayed symbolically in the Old Testament types that unmistakably point to Him, but it can't be denied that He was: Abraham sacrificing Isaac, Noah kept safe in the ark, the passing over of the people of Israel through the blood of the lamb from the plagues that befell Egypt, the temple and all its furnishings, the priest Melchizedek, the fourth man in the fire with the Hebrew children, the holy wrestling match with Jacob, and a slew of others. Christ would still be who He is without those types, and would still be the Messiah of prohecy; but that doesn't change the fact that Christ IS seen there by those with eyes to see.

Christians in the lodge have no trouble seeing Christ in symbol either: faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Cornerstone, the body as a temple, the resurrection of the body, our bodies becoming as incorruptible as our souls, the Lord of Life, "ye know not when the Master cometh," "He that taketh away the sins of the world," "peace which man cannot understand," and a host of others.

Some people have eyes to see, some do not. The Christian looks at the OT and sees an abundance of typological references to Jesus Christ; the person of Jewish faith looks at the same Old Testament and does not. The Christian has eyes to see them, the Jew does not.

The Christian in the lodge looks at the rituals of Masonry and sees Christ represented there in allegory and symbol, over and over again; the antimason looks at the same rituals and dos not. The Christian Mason has eyes to see them, the antimason does not. But as Christ said, "wisdom is justified of ALL her children."

Granted, you won't like that analogy, but it's where things stand.

Asked and answered.

Only in your imagination.

Oh, BTW: Why is it you won't consider joining the Scottish Rite?

Asked and answered. To repeat, I don't want to.

 

[Skip Sampson]

can't see Christ when He's right there in front of them, ... Asked and answered.

As I said, it's always nice to see a student learning from his masters. Now, if you'd just pick up the important things instead of just aping my comments.... Cordially, Skip.

 

[O.F.F.]

Skip said: I wonder where in the Bible it states that God will “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons?”

Wayne replied with: Don't sweat it, the reference is symbolic. I'll explain it for you. Masons are builders. Masonry is about building one's own spiritual temple within. Those who understand it rightly and build on the foundation of Christ, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, will be among those who hear Jesus say "You have been faithful in many things; enter into the joy of your Lord."

Wayne, it is amazing to witness just how much you insult your fellow non-Christian Masonic brethren and don't even know it; or have the decency to even care that you do. If the "symbolic" reference is strictly limited to "Christian" Masons' interpretation, and the outcome thereof, then evidently you are saying to all non-Christian Masons:

1. You are NOT "just and upright Masons!"

2. You are NOT builders!

3. If you are, you are building the WRONG spiritual temple!

3. And you WON'T be going to heaven!

If this is not what you mean to be saying, then what are the implications to them [non-Christian Masons] of what you just claimed?

The statement “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons" is for ALL MASONS; black, white, Jewish, "Christian," Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Pagan, etc., etc. Not just those who profess to be Christian. It's sad enough that from a Christian point of view you are now a Masonic pastor; but from the Lodge's perspective it's even worse to know that you are a very unMasonic pastor.

This is an interesting 'catch-22' [a dilemma from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions] you've gotten yourself into.

Answer this Wayne, or remain indefinitely in a dilemma from which there is no escape.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Now, if you'd just pick up the important things instead of just aping my comments....

When among the Romans, do as the Romans do. When among the apes--especially those apes who make baboons out of themselves trying to deny that a reference solely to Christ is a reference to Christ, well. . . .I guess you're right, aping might give the wrong impression.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Answer this Wayne, or remain indefinitely in a dilemma from which there is no escape.

Gladly:

If this is not what you mean to be saying, then what are the implications to them [non-Christian Masons] of what you just claimed?

The statement “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons" is for ALL MASONS; black, white, Jewish, "Christian," Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Pagan, etc., etc. Not just those who profess to be Christian.

Well, you forget, the statement is made predicated upon THIS:

an unshaken confidence in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah

The confidence in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah comes BEFORE that pronouncment. So that statement is a part of what leads up to it. Since the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" is a singular reference, and is a Messianic reference to Christ, if we are to take it for face value for what it truly IS, this speaks, symbolically, of one having "unshaken confidence in the merits of" Christ. No matter WHAT one may "interpret," the facts of the matter still stand as stated: there is NO other source from which this derives than the Christian Bible, in Revelation 5:5. So no, it's not a statement for someone of some other religion, unless that person in some way is able to reconcile that fact with his own religious beliefs. Ultimately, it's not a question I can answer FOR any such person, because I'm not the one who has a problem, he is.

As you and Skip have amply illustrated for us, there are some jurisdictions where someone who has been involved in their Masonic education committees, has seen fit to try to alleviate the problem by offering an "out" by suggesting that an individual Mason should be able to interpret it as he wishes. Problem is, the explanation they gave, as I pointed out, is an impossible one from the example offered as an illustration, of what the Jewish Mason might interpret about the symbol. And I don't say it to be blunt, or to be overly critical of any other Mason, but whoever came up with that particular statement on the matter, should have taken more time to give it more consideration than they apparently did, for that statement clearly illustrates for us, that the person was either not aware enough of Jewish beliefs, or was not aware enough of the Christian nature of both the context of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah sections, and of the phrase itself, to be cognizant of what an error his claim represents.

I've said it before, there are enough Christian symbols in Masonry, and enough unmistakably Christian theological concepts that are employed in so much of the context surrounding those symbols, that in many places in Masonry, if one takes all the references for what they truly ARE, a Christian interpretation is the only one possible. I've shown this in other places, and it shows up in the context and content of all the ritual and monitorial materials cited here during the present discussion.

I've also said it before, and you've got it again, that the persons who REALLY have a serious problem between Masonry and their religion, are those who are NOT Christian.

That being the case, I suggest you find your way to the Grand Lodge of India webpage, find a contact email or other means of contact, and submit your question to R.W. Bro. P.S. Jamburamaswami Iyer. He is the author of an article that was among those cited, who quoted Paul that "we must die with Him if we are to be raised like him," and connects Hiram with Christ. Who knows, he may even be a Christian, which would explain his Christian interpretation of Masonic symbolism.

But my point is, you are asking this question of someone who knows no one of any other faith in his lodge. You'd be better served, if indeed you are genuinely interested in a response to your question, by asking someone from a lodge where the scenario you describe might actually have a chance of being a reality, than you would by asking it of me. I really have no idea how those of other faiths handle the problem of reconciling the presence ofsymbols in Masonry that point to Christ, with their own religion/religious beliefs.

And the problem with your question is, that you seem to be suggesting that even though I am aware of the fact that Lion of the Tribe of Judah can only have one possible referent, that I should mitigate my comments in deference to those of other religions. And you even call me "unMasonic" to do otherwise. Sorry, but I can only call them as I see them, and when I see the evidence point to only one conclusion, I have to follow the evidence. And in this case, the evidence points to the Lion of the Tribe of Judah as Christ. As pointed out by abundant citations, many Masonic sources concur with that point of view. And in reality, I do understand that you guys, despite your tendencies to lean hard on the opinions to the contrary, are both aware that from a biblical and Christian standpoint, there is no other position to take on the matter. So the problem you guys have is really not with ME, it's with those in Masonry who strive to change that traditional understanding of LOTTOJ as Christ. But your error has been, in trying to assert THEIR opinion as the dominant one in Masonry, an assertion which goes against the grain of Masonic opinion, in an attempt to generate some kind of cannon fodder to aim at me--and you aren't intellectually honest enough to admit it, because you have a problem conceding even a single point, because either your general dogmatic tendencies or your general insecurity has you convinced that to back up even one iota is to pull out a linchpin that would send your whole house of cards cascading down.

As for the hypothetical situation you present--it's really not something I've come across in my experience--which is why I suggest you contact W. Bro. Iyer. Since he obviously shares the same general Masonic view that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is Jesus Christ; and since he does so as a member of a Grand Lodge which, if memory serves me correctly, has five VSL's; and since it would hardly be likely that his views, published as they are in an article on the website of the GL of India, could have escaped the attention of his fellow Masons who hail from other religions; he would most definitely be someone you ought to consider a person of interest in your attempt to find an answer to your question.

Of course, you guys have tried in the past to insist that the rituals as we know them here in the states, where the Bible is the VSL of every lodge, have been "altered" in some way, in Grand Lodges elsewhere, to accommodate those of other religions. Since the article posted on their GL site clearly shows that they certainly are not among the GL's which y'all had thus hypothesized, then ideally, the author of that article would be the person you would want to talk to. If there truly are problems with someone interpreting the Lion of the Tribe of Judah from an exclusively Christian viewpoint within the jurisdiction of a GL where there are those of other faiths who might take exception, you can rest assured he's probably heard them.

Me, I just tell you the same things I already find my fellow Masons saying about the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. None of them hail from other religions. And thus I have no point of reference from which to give you a proper response to your question.

Enjoy yourself, it's a holiday weekend, after all. I've certainly enjoyed your post. It's not every day I get to see an anitmason so at a loss for an argument, and so desperate for something to fall back on, that he settles on the bizarre tactic of accusing a Mason of being unMasonic. That in itself is enough of a hoot to make my day, and even my week.

 

[O.F.F.]

Wayne,

While your response is eloquent, unfortunately it doesn't rescue you from the 'catch 22' you've gotten yourself into. In fact, if anything, you have trapped yourself in it even further.

You'd be better served, if indeed you are genuinely interested in a response to your question, by asking someone from a lodge where the scenario you describe might actually have a chance of being a reality, than you would by asking it of me.

The question is not about the specific lodge you belong to, or about any specific GL jurisdiction for that matter. The question is directly aimed at YOU for the unMasonic implications of your own words; not the words of any lodge, Grand Lodge, or from an author of an article posted on a Masonic website from India.

When Skip asked of you, ""I wonder where in the Bible it states that God will “be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons?”" You said:

Masons are builders. Masonry is about building one's own spiritual temple within. Those who understand it rightly and build on the foundation of Christ, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, will be among those who hear Jesus say "You have been faithful in many things; enter into the joy of your Lord."

As a Mason, you know as well as I do as a former Mason, that what is said "in Masonry" about anything "in Masonry" is for ALL MASONS, regardless of their religious persuasion. From the time they place his first apron on a newly made Entered Apprentice to the time they place his last apron on him when he dies and is laid to rest via a Masonic funeral, Freemasonry gives every Mason the impression that he will ultimately reside in the "Celestial Lodge above" where the GAOTU presides. For any Mason to say or to imply otherwise – for any reason – is unMasonic, period.

You may very well come from a lodge where all, or most, of its members profess to be Christian, but I am certain if anyone conducted a one-on-one survey with members of your lodge, most of them would NOT go out on the unMasonic limb you've climbed on and insinuate or imply that their non-Christian Masonic brethren, wherever they may be scattered across the global, are NOT destined to the same "Celestial Lodge above." And your Grand Lodge and any other in the US will not say they will either. But YOUR position implies that they will go to hell. So if you are so convinced, why don't you just admit it.

I really have no idea how those of other faiths handle the problem of reconciling the presence of symbols in Masonry that point to Christ, with their own religion/religious beliefs.

As one who professes to be a Christian pastor, saints reading this thread ought see you more concern about how they reconcile themselves to God, based upon your implications; but apparently you don't care about their souls.

Ultimately, it's not a question I can answer FOR any such person, because I'm not the one who has a problem, he is...

I've also said it before, and you've got it again, that the persons who REALLY have a serious problem between Masonry and their religion, are those who are NOT Christian...

And the problem with your question is, that you seem to be suggesting that even though I am aware of the fact that Lion of the Tribe of Judah can only have one possible referent, that I should mitigate my comments in deference to those of other religions. . . Sorry, but I can only call them as I see them, and when I see the evidence point to only one conclusion, I have to follow the evidence.

So how then, pastor, do you reconcile these statement of YOURS with the Great Commission imposed upon you as a calling from God?

So the problem you guys have is really not with ME, it's with those in Masonry who strive to change that traditional understanding of LOTTOJ as Christ. But your error has been, in trying to assert THEIR opinion as the dominant one in Masonry, an assertion which goes against the grain of Masonic opinion, in an attempt to generate some kind of cannon fodder to aim at me--and you aren't intellectually honest enough to admit it

Your problem is your ultra-sensitivity to take anything said against Freemasonry as a personal assault against you. Get over it pastor, it's not about egotistical YOU. Moreover, your delusion that Masonic theological principles are Christian rather than interfaith, is intellectual dishonesty on YOUR part; and you are neither Christian enough nor Mason enough to admit it.

The bottomline is, if you are so stuck on Masonic symbolism to be only applicable to professing Christian Masons, at the exclusion of all others, then I rest my case in concluding that you are indeed an unMasonic pastor who believes, but too afraid to admit, that all of his non-Christian Masonic brethren are:

1. NOT "just and upright Masons!"

2. NOT builders!

3. If they are, they are building the WRONG spiritual temple!

3. And they WON'T be going to heaven!

And since you apparently make no mention of how YOU as a Masonic pastor care to work within Freemasonry to lead them to Christ, then I wonder how you plan to reconcile that dilemma with the God to whom you claim to have been called into Freemasonry in the first place.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You may very well come from a lodge where all, or most, of its members profess to be Christian, but I am certain if anyone conducted a one-on-one survey with members of your lodge, most of them would NOT go out on the unMasonic limb you've climbed on and insinuate or imply that their non-Christian Masonic brethren, wherever they may be scattered across the global, are NOT destined to the same "Celestial Lodge above."

Be my guest. In fact, you can take care of quite a bit of the survey in one visit to my church, where you will find several of them on Sunday. One of my members used to tell me of his visits to his doctor, and witnessing to him about Jesus (his doctor is Buddhist). I have no doubt in my mind, that even if his doctor were a lodge member, he'd still be witnessing to him during doctor visits, he has a real heart for seeing the lost come to Jesus.

But YOUR position implies that they will go to hell. So if you are so convinced, why don't you just admit it.

Admit what, Michael? That salvation is through the Lord Jesus Christ, and His sacrifice on the cross? I've witnessed to that fact many times before, and unless you're as short on memory as you are on arguments, you would remember that.

I have to admit, though, this is even more humorous than your last post, where you were railing against me and accusing me of being unMasonic. Now, of all things, you're taking me to task for being consistent in my witness to Jesus Christ, and for stating that salvation is through Christ. What kind of Christian does that to fellow Christians, Michael? Your posts just get stranger and stranger.

As for what you try to insist my post "implies," it does no such thing. I do not get involved in judging who goes to hell and who doesn't. That should have been clear to you YEARS ago, from all the times you've tried to send me there. I leave judgment up to God. Last time I checked, you were not Him.

So the problem you guys have is really not with ME, it's with those in Masonry who strive to change that traditional understanding of LOTTOJ as Christ.

Your problem is your ultra-sensitivity to take anything said against Freemasonry as a personal assault against you.

Man, you're really self-blind to everything you do and say, aren't you? You really need to go talk to your mirror. Take another look at your own comments, Michael, I'll even highlight them as an aid to showing them to you for what they really ARE:

If this is not what you mean to be saying, then what are the implications to them [non-Christian Masons] of what you just claimed?

The statement “be pleased to pronounce us just and uprightMasons" is for all Masons; black, white, Jewish, "Christian," Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Pagan, etc., etc. Not just those who profess to be Christian. It's sad enough that from a Christian point of view you are now a Masonic pastor; but from the Lodge's perspective it's even worse to know that you are a very unMasonic pastor.

(1) First, you address comments made by ME;
(2) You make your comments about it, peppered throughout with "you's";
(3) You add to that, "Masonic pastor" and "unMasonic pastor" accusations":

Sooooooo, My question to YOU is, if you WEREN'T trying to make this about ME: then just who the heck WERE you addressing this to? The very fact the post was addressed to me, with the above content as a part of it, makes if very clear that's ALL you were doing was trying to make it about me.

How on earth do you expect to come here hollering YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU at me, coupled with "MASONIC PASTOR" and "UNMASONIC PASTOR" accusations;

AND THEN YOU TURN AROUND AND EXPECT TO DECEIVE THE READERS WITH A PRETENSE THAT YOU WERE NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS ABOUT ME?????

Do you REALLY expect the readers here are that IGNORANT???????

This is exactly why I initially chose a course of non-response, I knew when I saw the above portion of that post, that with the venom directed at me ALREADY in that post, you would only try to ratchet the personal side of it even MORE than you already DID.

And to think, it all started simply because you made a failed attempt to pretend you had trumped a collection of nearly 60 Masonic citations shooting down your argument, with the handful of sources you had posted. Clearly Skip got the wrong person when he started rambling about people with insecurities.

Maybe it's time you changed tactics. This one never has served you any purpose at all, this attempt to start finding things to turn into accusations against me personally, when your arguments fail. Sorry to disappoint you, but "I'm teflon, you're glue, bounces o.f.f. me and sticks to you."

 

[Skip Sampson]

Clearly Skip got the wrong person when he started rambling about people with insecurities.

No, he didn't. We've got you pegged perfectly. Cordially, Skip.