Bible proof that the Thief on the cross never got water baptized.

[prodromos]

Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The works referred to above are works of the law, not good works.

Romans 3:28
For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

The "work" that Paul describes in Romans is activity done before salvation with the intention of placing God under an obligation to pay us with salvation. That's bad work that earns only death.

Everything directed by Christ for those who have been saved is a matter of obedience. That's what Paul calls in Ephesians 2 a "good work."

Christian baptism is NEITHER a "bad work" nor a "good work." It is a work of another. Christian baptism is defined as: 1. water applied to the human body; 2. with the true name of God (triune formula); 3. And an another Christian baptizing the person.

In baptism, the candidate is purely passive. No christian ever baptizes himself. This is the Biblical mandate.

No Christian can get credit for their own baptism. It is not a "good" work. It is not a work of obedience. It is the work of another.

No christian can get credit for their own baptism any more than they can get credit for open heart surgery. Open heart surgery is done by another. The patient is purely passive.

Some credobaptists will argue: 1) "I consented to be baptized." Consenting to be baptized is not Christian baptism; it is consenting. 2) Some will argue, "I got into the dunking tank." Getting into the dunking tank is not baptism; it is getting into the dunking tank. It is not christian baptism. Baptism is the work of another.

Baptists and American Evangelicals have defined examples of the definition of baptism as:

• Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change.
• A public proclamation and a testimony of God’s work in a believer’s life.
• Baptism is a choice that one needs to make for him/herself as part of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
• Baptism is seen as an outward expression of an inward spiritual reality that has already taken place at salvation.

Baptists and American Evangelicals always want to get credit for their own baptism. It is impossible for any Christian to get credit for their own baptism. Being baptized is NOT their work. It is the work of another.

Paedobaptist get it right. Baptism is the work of another. Baptism is God's work through human hands.

​

​

 

[HTacianas]

Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of both Romans and Ephesians. Beginning at Romans 3:1 the writer explains that the "works of the law" or "the deeds of the law" will not make a person righteous. Those works of the law are all the trappings of the Levitical law that Christianity has never practiced. Completely unrelated to those works of the law, the writer to the Ephesians explains that salvation is not a reward for anything a person might have done previously. One need only read Ephesians 2:1-7 leading up to verses 2:8-9 to understand it. The writer goes into detail all of the sins the Ephesians had committed previously, yet God saved them anyway. And they were saved specifically for good works:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Cockcrow]

updated the OP to include the Mark account, which confirms in Mark 15:32 that the thieves reviled Jesus.

 

[Cockcrow]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of both Romans and Ephesians. Beginning at Romans 3:1 the writer explains that the "works of the law" or "the deeds of the law" will not make a person righteous. Those works of the law are all the trappings of the Levitical law that Christianity has never practiced. Completely unrelated to those works of the law, the writer to the Ephesians explains that salvation is not a reward for anything a person might have done previously. One need only read Ephesians 2:1-7 leading up to verses 2:8-9 to understand it. The writer goes into detail all of the sins the Ephesians had committed previously, yet God saved them anyway. And they were saved specifically for good works:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We should walk in them, key word should. we should do a lot of things, but when it comes to what MUST we do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 16:30-31

 

[HTacianas]

We should walk in them, key word should. we should do a lot of things, but when it comes to what MUST we do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 16:30-31

Funny that should is not in the original. It's that we walk in them.

But moving on to the jailer of Acts. The jailer believed, went through a catechism, and was baptized. We can't simply read the parts we want to read and leave out the rest.

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

To speak to him the word of the Lord is what we call a catechism today. A period of instruction. After that period of instruction:

Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

After that period of instruction he was baptized. Nothing has changed since those times.

 

[Cockcrow]

Funny that should is not in the original. It's that we walk in them.

But moving on to the jailer of Acts. The jailer believed, went through a catechism, and was baptized. We can't simply read the parts we want to read and leave out the rest.

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

To speak to him the word of the Lord is what we call a catechism today. A period of instruction. After that period of instruction:

Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

After that period of instruction he was baptized. Nothing has changed since those times.

What original are you talking about? did God not preserve his word correctly like he promised? I think not. and tread it again: Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

it says Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

 

[HTacianas]

What original are you talking about? did God not preserve his word correctly like he promised? I think not. and tread it again: Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

it says Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

So does that mean he did not need to have the way of the Lord spoken to him? Why did they speak it to him? He did not need to be baptized? Why did they baptize him? Did Jesus say "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved"? Did he say in another place "he who endures to the end shall be saved"?

 

[Fervent]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before.

Has anyone ever actually made that claim to you, or is this something you've invented that they must say?

 

[BNR32FAN]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before. but in Matthew 27:44, Mark 15:32 the thieves both Reviled Lord Jesus Christ, cast the same in his teeth. they were clearly both unsaved. Yet we see revealed in Lukes Gospel, one of the Thieves repents (changes his mind) and calls on the name of the Lord to be saved Luke 23:39-43, and Jesus saves him.

Matthew 27:38-44

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Mark 15:27-32

27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Here we see in verse 32 that the thieves did in fact revile Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here we see one of the thieves repented (changed his mind) and Believed on Lord Jesus, called on his name to be saved. Nothing is put in the Bible by accident, this story was clearly put in by God as a picture of salvation.

And the people who say "The thief couldn't haved been saved by faith because Jesus didn't die yet" that is false because all throughout the Old Testament we see people justified by grace through faith, calling on the name of the Lord. Abel Genesis 4:4, Noah Genesis 6:8, Abraham Genesis 15:6 . Hebrews 11 lists Abel Enoch, Sarah, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Gedeon, and of Barak, Samson, and of Jephthae; of David, and Samuel, as being justified by faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Always. There has never been different ways of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a lot of people quote Luke 23:39-43 and rightly so, but I never see anyone bring up Matthew 27:38-44, or Mark 15:27-32 which is frustrating because one of the things works salvationists, lose your salvation people will hit you with is "Oh the Thief on the cross was saved beforehand, or water baptized beforehand" but that's biblically false and that is extra biblical nonsense.

Why are you so focused on attacks in your post? We don’t know if the thief on the cross was baptized or not, even both of the thieves could’ve been baptized for all we know. I’m not saying they were I’m just saying that we don’t know and shouldn’t make any assumptions on the subject because there’s no conclusive evidence to support either side of the debate. The scriptures don’t give us any information on these thieves before their crucifixion, imagine what we would think of Peter if no other information was given other than the fact that he denied Christ three times.

 

[Cockcrow]

Has anyone ever actually made that claim to you, or is this something you've invented that they must say?

Yes, I have heard people say this before I didn't make it up. In fact I have heard a lot of crazy takes on the Thief on the cross story from works salvationists who try to explain it away and say that the Thief was actually water baptized

 

[Fervent]

Yes, I have heard people say this before I didn't make it up. In fact I have heard a lot of crazy takes on the Thief on the cross story from works salvationists who try to explain it away and say that the Thief was actually water baptized

I'll have to take your word for it, but it strikes me as incredible. Though I don't tend to go around arguing over exceptional cases as if we should treat them as normative.

 

[prodromos]

What original are you talking about? did God not preserve his word correctly like he promised? I think not.

He is referring to your insertion of the word "should"

read it again: Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

it says Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

And as you've been shown, believing on the Lord Jesus Christ involved learning about Christ and being baptised.

 

[prodromos]

Yes, I have heard people say this before I didn't make it up. In fact I have heard a lot of crazy takes on the Thief on the cross story from works salvationists who try to explain it away and say that the Thief was actually water baptized

Since no one in this thread is arguing such a position, one has to wonder what motivates you to continue arguing in this thread.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What original are you talking about? did God not preserve his word correctly like he promised?

What verse are you referring to where God promises to preserve His word? Do you think all Bible translations don’t have errors?

”And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, a Beth-lehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.“
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭21‬:‭19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

”There was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.“
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭21‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Which one of these are correct? Are they both correct?

I think not. and tread it again: Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

it says Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Are these not also true?

”yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.“
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭22‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.“
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.“
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BeyondET]

Jesus instituted baptism after his resurrection but before his acsension. The first Christian baptism occurred 50 days AFTER Jesus' resurrection or 53 days AFTER the thief's death. It is impossible for the thief to be baptized. To say the thief wasn't baptized is like saying Ezra, Nehemiah or King David wasn't baptized.

The "proof" you are looking for in your title of the OP is right before you. There is no such practice of Christian baptism until the Day of Pentecost. You should know this.

What was John the Baptist doing, why was even called the Baptist

 

[biblelesson]

for salvation, water baptism is not required. otherwise Jesus lied when he told the Thief he would be with him in paradise. because Thief never got baptized. Phillip said to the Eunuch in Acts 8:37 "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." you get saved first, then you get water baptized. but water baptism is not a requirement for salvation

Yes it is a requirement - but after Jesus death. After Jesus death and resurrection He commanded His disciples to teach baptizing all nations, Matthew 28:19 KJV, and commanded to proclaim repentance, Luke 24:47 KJV

Mark 16:15-16 KJV
15 “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus was baptized in water representing washing away sin, so our baptism in water represents our sins being washed away, our being buried with Him we receive His righteousness. If we neglect this, we will not join in the salvation offered us, nor will we receive the Holy Spirit,

When we are baptized we are buried with him, and raised with him - we are then united with Jesus, Romans 6:4-5 KJV


Jesus was still alive when the thief asked to be with Him in paradise. It was the thief’s faith that saved him. Many people who believed on Christ before He died was saved without baptism.

Luke 7:50 KJV
Luke 18:42 KJV
Matthew 8:11-13 KJV

 

[biblelesson]

What was John the Baptist doing, why was even called the Baptist

Forerunner - proclaiming Christ. Malachi 4:5-6 KJV, Luke 1:15-17 KJV, Malachi 3:1 KJV, Matthew 3:3 KJV

John was called the baptist because he baptized people.

Just like a person works on pipes and plumbing is called a plumber.

 

[rturner76]

It doesn't matter. He repented to Jesus IN PERSON. Jesus accepted him and that is that. We will not meet Jesus in the flesh in this life so we follow Jesus' instructions to be baptized.

 

[BeyondET]

Forerunner - proclaiming Christ. Malachi 3:1 KJV, Luke 1:15-17 KJV

John was called the baptist because he baptized people.

Just like a person works on pipes and plumbing is called a plumber.

Indeed, John was baptizing which wasn't something the local synagogues were doing. Even though people weren't called Christians in those days. John the Baptist was doing just that.