Bible proof that the Thief on the cross never got water baptized.

[Cockcrow]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before. but in Matthew 27:44, Mark 15:32 the thieves both Reviled Lord Jesus Christ, cast the same in his teeth. they were clearly both unsaved. Yet we see revealed in Lukes Gospel, one of the Thieves repents (changes his mind) and calls on the name of the Lord to be saved Luke 23:39-43, and Jesus saves him.

Matthew 27:38-44

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Mark 15:27-32

27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Here we see in verse 32 that the thieves did in fact revile Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here we see one of the thieves repented (changed his mind) and Believed on Lord Jesus, called on his name to be saved. Nothing is put in the Bible by accident, this story was clearly put in by God as a picture of salvation.

And the people who say "The thief couldn't haved been saved by faith because Jesus didn't die yet" that is false because all throughout the Old Testament we see people justified by grace through faith, calling on the name of the Lord. Abel Genesis 4:4, Noah Genesis 6:8, Abraham Genesis 15:6 . Hebrews 11 lists Abel Enoch, Sarah, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Gedeon, and of Barak, Samson, and of Jephthae; of David, and Samuel, as being justified by faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Always. There has never been different ways of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a lot of people quote Luke 23:39-43 and rightly so, but I never see anyone bring up Matthew 27:38-44, or Mark 15:27-32 which is frustrating because one of the things works salvationists, lose your salvation people will hit you with is "Oh the Thief on the cross was saved beforehand, or water baptized beforehand" but that's biblically false and that is extra biblical nonsense.

 

[Lost4words]

Jesus can save whoever He wants in whatever manner He decides.

 

[Cockcrow]

Jesus can save whoever He wants in whatever manner He decides.

don't tell the works trusters, baptismal regeneration crowd that. it seems a common teaching that one must do a water baptism to be saved. Billions believe it (Roman Catholicism + orthodox) it is wicked. salvation is by grace through faith in Lord Jesus Christ alone

 

[sandman]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before. but in Matthew 27:38-44 the thieves both Reviled Lord Jesus Christ, and cast the same in his teeth. they were clearly both unsaved. Yet we see revealed in Lukes Gospel, one of the Thieves repents (changes his mind) and calls on the name of the Lord to be saved Luke 23:39-43, and Jesus saves him.

Matthew 27:38-44

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here we see one of the thieves repented (changed his mind) and Believed on Lord Jesus, called on his name to be saved. Nothing is put in the Bible by accident, this story was clearly put in by God as a picture of salvation.

And the people who say "The thief couldn't haved been saved by faith because Jesus didn't die yet" that is false because all throughout the Old Testament we see people justified by grace through faith, calling on the name of the Lord. Abel Genesis 4:4, Noah Genesis 6:8, Abraham Genesis 15:6 . Hebrews 11 lists Abel Enoch, Sarah, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Gedeon, and of Barak, Samson, and of Jephthae; of David, and Samuel, as being justified by faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Always. There has never been different ways of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a lot of people quote Luke 23:39-43 and rightly so, but I never see anyone bring up Matthew 27:38-44 which is frustrating because one of the things works salvationists, lose your salvation people will hit you with is "Oh the Thief on the cross was saved beforehand, or water baptized beforehand" but that's biblically false and that is extra biblical nonsense.

Dyo = 2

lēstēs is better translated robbers …KJV and most other versions has “thieves” that is an incorrect translation, The Greeks use an entirely different word for a thief which is kleptes ……A robber lēstēs… which is referred to here… is one who plunders openly and by violence.

Kakourgos = Malefactor… which is a criminal, an evil doer.



There were Dyo lēstēs and Dyo kakourgos…. Two robbers and two malefactors

And it was one of the malefactors who asked Jesus ….”Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom”.

 

[JSRG]

don't tell the works trusters, baptismal regeneration crowd that. it seems a common teaching that one must do a water baptism to be saved. Billions believe it (Roman Catholicism + orthodox) it is wicked. salvation is by grace through faith in Lord Jesus Christ alone

I am not sure about the Orthodox (possibly @The Liturgist or @prodromos can clarify the Orthodox position, sorry to bother either of you), but while water baptism is normally seen as required in Catholicism, what will also fulfill the baptism requirement is baptism of blood (martyrdom) or baptism of desire (wanting, explicitly or implicitly, to get baptized but dying prior to having it done). Thus, even if the thief was never baptized or was not a believer before, his presumed desire of baptism would fulfill the requirement in Catholic belief.

EDIT: I suppose I should offer evidence for the claim. What I noted is mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church here.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before. but in Matthew 27:38-44 the thieves both Reviled Lord Jesus Christ, and cast the same in his teeth. they were clearly both unsaved. Yet we see revealed in Lukes Gospel, one of the Thieves repents (changes his mind) and calls on the name of the Lord to be saved Luke 23:39-43, and Jesus saves him.

Matthew 27:38-44

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here we see one of the thieves repented (changed his mind) and Believed on Lord Jesus, called on his name to be saved. Nothing is put in the Bible by accident, this story was clearly put in by God as a picture of salvation.

And the people who say "The thief couldn't haved been saved by faith because Jesus didn't die yet" that is false because all throughout the Old Testament we see people justified by grace through faith, calling on the name of the Lord. Abel Genesis 4:4, Noah Genesis 6:8, Abraham Genesis 15:6 . Hebrews 11 lists Abel Enoch, Sarah, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Gedeon, and of Barak, Samson, and of Jephthae; of David, and Samuel, as being justified by faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Always. There has never been different ways of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a lot of people quote Luke 23:39-43 and rightly so, but I never see anyone bring up Matthew 27:38-44 which is frustrating because one of the things works salvationists, lose your salvation people will hit you with is "Oh the Thief on the cross was saved beforehand, or water baptized beforehand" but that's biblically false and that is extra biblical nonsense.

Jesus instituted baptism after his resurrection but before his acsension. The first Christian baptism occurred 50 days AFTER Jesus' resurrection or 53 days AFTER the thief's death. It is impossible for the thief to be baptized. To say the thief wasn't baptized is like saying Ezra, Nehemiah or King David wasn't baptized.

The "proof" you are looking for in your title of the OP is right before you. There is no such practice of Christian baptism until the Day of Pentecost. You should know this.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

don't tell the works trusters, baptismal regeneration crowd that. it seems a common teaching that one must do a water baptism to be saved.

Do you believe Christian baptism is optional?

 

[HTacianas]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before. but in Matthew 27:38-44 the thieves both Reviled Lord Jesus Christ, and cast the same in his teeth. they were clearly both unsaved. Yet we see revealed in Lukes Gospel, one of the Thieves repents (changes his mind) and calls on the name of the Lord to be saved Luke 23:39-43, and Jesus saves him.

Matthew 27:38-44

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here we see one of the thieves repented (changed his mind) and Believed on Lord Jesus, called on his name to be saved. Nothing is put in the Bible by accident, this story was clearly put in by God as a picture of salvation.

And the people who say "The thief couldn't haved been saved by faith because Jesus didn't die yet" that is false because all throughout the Old Testament we see people justified by grace through faith, calling on the name of the Lord. Abel Genesis 4:4, Noah Genesis 6:8, Abraham Genesis 15:6 . Hebrews 11 lists Abel Enoch, Sarah, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Gedeon, and of Barak, Samson, and of Jephthae; of David, and Samuel, as being justified by faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Always. There has never been different ways of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a lot of people quote Luke 23:39-43 and rightly so, but I never see anyone bring up Matthew 27:38-44 which is frustrating because one of the things works salvationists, lose your salvation people will hit you with is "Oh the Thief on the cross was saved beforehand, or water baptized beforehand" but that's biblically false and that is extra biblical nonsense.

The thief on the cross died sinless.

 

[Cockcrow]

I am not sure about the Orthodox (possibly @The Liturgist or @prodromos can clarify the Orthodox position, sorry to bother either of you), but while water baptism is normally seen as required in Catholicism, what will also fulfill the baptism requirement is baptism of blood (martyrdom) or baptism of desire (wanting, explicitly or implicitly, to get baptized but dying prior to having it done). Thus, even if the thief was never baptized or was not a believer before, his presumed desire of baptism would fulfill the requirement in Catholic belief.

EDIT: I suppose I should offer evidence for the claim. What I noted is mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church here.

so he doesn't have to get water baptized to be saved, but he only needs to be willing to get baptized? wow! where is that in the bible. that's like the people who say you need to be willing repent of your sins to be saved. you don't have to actually have to turn from them you just have to be willing too. you need to be really sorry, you must have a tear in the eye or you didn't really get saved. It's nonsense, salvation is faith alone in Lord Jesus Christ. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Cockcrow]

Do you believe Christian baptism is optional?

for salvation, water baptism is not required. otherwise Jesus lied when he told the Thief he would be with him in paradise. because Thief never got baptized. Phillip said to the Eunuch in Acts 8:37 "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." you get saved first, then you get water baptized. but water baptism is not a requirement for salvation

The thief on the cross died sinless.

his spirit is sinless, born again and is now in Heaven , but his flesh was sinful. nobody is without sin or sinlessly perfect

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

for salvation, water baptism is not required. otherwise Jesus lied when he told the Thief he would be with him in paradise. because Thief never got baptized. Phillip said to the Eunuch in Acts 8:37 "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." you get saved first, then you get water baptized. but water baptism is not a requirement for salvation

I know you don't believe it is not a requirement for salvation, but my question still stands....Is Christian baptism optional?

Acts 8:37 The oldest Greek manuscripts do NOT contain verse 37, this would include in Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, along with strong papytric against its inclusion. The Latin manuscripts that contain the verse only date as early as the 6th century, so the passage does not have strong manuscript support in any early witnesses. If it was included in the Latin Vulgate (4th century) then the passage might be able to stand on it’s own, however, it is not in Jerome’s Vulgate, which means no Latin manuscript was known to the church in the 4th century.

 

[Cockcrow]

Jesus can save whoever He wants in whatever manner He decides.

he has already decided salvation is by grace through faith not works.

 

[HTacianas]

for salvation, water baptism is not required. otherwise Jesus lied when he told the Thief he would be with him in paradise. because Thief never got baptized. Phillip said to the Eunuch in Acts 8:37 "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." you get saved first, then you get water baptized. but water baptism is not a requirement for salvation



his spirit is sinless, born again and is now in Heaven , but his flesh was sinful. nobody is without sin or sinlessly perfect

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

His sins were forgiven in the presence of Christ. Gone. Non-existent. It would be difficult to sin afterwards as he was hanging on a cross. I suppose he could have blasphemed but apparently he didn't. We receive that same forgiveness now through baptism:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When a person is baptized they are cleansed of all previous sins and become a new creation:

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

If you want an analogy to the thief on the cross, if a person is baptized, and as they come up from the water they fall over dead they have died sinless. All of the "old things have passed away". On the day of judgement they are not guilty of anything.

 

[Lost4words]

he has already decided salvation is by grace through faith not works.

Faith leads to works....

 

[Cockcrow]

Faith leads to works....

Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Lost4words]

Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Still...faith leads to good works.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

for salvation, water baptism is not required. otherwise Jesus lied when he told the Thief he would be with him in paradise. because Thief never got baptized.

Wow! Did you read post #6? It is impossible for the thief to be baptized. Christian baptism at the time of the thief's death was not invented yet! Christian baptism as a historical practice starts on the day of Pentecost, some 53 days after the thief's death. A simple affirmation of the Biblical historical narrative should affirm this fact.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

don't tell the works trusters

Seems to me you believe BAPTISM IS A WORK. Chapter and verse please.

 

[RDKirk]

Still...faith leads to good works.

And:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. -- Ephesians 2

The distinction of "good works" is that "good works" are those perpared for us in advance of our salvation (or this could read as having been prepared by God even before creation).

The "work" that Paul describes in Romans is activity done before salvation to place God under an obligation to pay us with salvation. (In case anyone gets confused over overthinks the matter, Paul defines for us straightforward in Romans 4:4 that faith and belief are not that kind of work.)

But "good works" are the works on God's to-do list for us after salvation.

 

[RDKirk]

Seems to me you believe BAPTISM IS A WORK. Chapter and verse please.

The "work" that Paul describes in Romans is activity done before salvation with the intention of placing God under an obligation to pay us with salvation. That's bad work that earns only death.

Everything directed by Christ for those who have been saved is a matter of obedience. That's what Paul calls in Ephesians 2 a "good work."