Bible-Creation-Evolution (3)

faith guardian said:

Well AV, they DO contradict your version of God. So I wonder, why did God create something which says He didn't do it the way He did?

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FG, I'd like to continue this conversation, but frankly I'm finding your constant snips at me starting to wear me down.

You're not interested in learning, you just want to tell me what you think of me; and I'm getting a little tired of it.

AV1611VET said:

FG, I'd like to continue this conversation, but frankly I'm finding your constant snips at me starting to wear me down.

You're not interested in learning, you just want to tell me what you think of me; and I'm getting a little tired of it.

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Hum? No AV. I don't know you. I think you're mistaken. But yeah I am interested in learning. Why else would I ask and ask and ask?
Can't you handle that your position is tested AV? It's your position I'm attacking. Not you. I'm trying not to attack you anyway. Sorry if I fail.

faith guardian said:

Sorry if I fail.

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Don't be sorry -- it makes it easy for me to ignore you, even though you do [at times] ask good questions.

AV1611VET said:

Don't be sorry -- it makes it easy for me to ignore you, even though you do [at times] ask good questions.

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I really intend no harm. But I do think you're very very wrong and that people could be lost forever because of what you say. I don't want to hurt, but I won't lie AV.

faith guardian said:

I really intend no harm. But I do think you're very very wrong and that people could be lost forever because of what you say. I don't want to hurt, but I won't lie AV.

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I don't mind being called 'wrong' -- but the rest is uncalled for.

AV1611VET said:

I don't mind being called 'wrong' -- but the rest is uncalled for.

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Is it? Why? You are, in effect, telling everyone around you that reality is saying with everything it is that Christianity is wrong. You're saying with your argumentation that it is a lie and that to believe in it you must be someone who rejects what many of us know to be true through personal experience and thorough work. It you were a carpenter and someone came up to you and said your hammer could NEVER drive a nail through a plank and that building a house is IMPOSSIBLE for ANY carpenter, in fact houses don't even exist at all - what would you think? That's pretty much exactly what you're telling us.

Even if an atheist were to want to seek Christ he might opt not to because "AV told me that Christianity is a lie, and he's a devout believer so he must be right". Do you know how often I get to hear "How can you be a Christian? You ought to know the world isn't 6000 years old? Surely you cannot be that stupid!" in some way or other? Rather often. And why do I hear that? Because these people have heard people like you insisting that Christianity is false again and again and again - in the name of Jesus to boot. And that's what you're doing. Do you want me to sugarcoat that AV? To say noooo you're not pushing people away from Christ, not at all. When I know very well indeed that that's exactly what you're doing. I was taught what you believe, I eventually rejected it and at one point almost rejected my faith. I did not reject it. Not because I set limits to "what science can mean" or "how much I accept" but because I didn't. And because of strong believers who really show the fruits of the spirit who didn't see a problem with accepting science AND believing. To me saying that's impossible is like saying you can't both wear clothes AND shoes at the same time. It seems nonsensical to me.

Have you seen the videos on youtube where people make fun of Christianity? Most of those videos mock Christianity not because we show love where others show no love. Not because we are such vibrant mirror images of Christ who stand up for what's right and good. Who fight for the weak and poor. No, they make fun of christianity because of people like you. They say that Christianity, that's a lie and it's a lie because creationism is false.

Yeah creationism is false. It makes good people like yourself forget Jesus and start attacking Darwin. They make good people such as you forget the call Christ gave us to love even our enemies and start claiming God didn't make the universe the way it is. It's just as if you were claiming we live in teletubbyland, and people notice. And the people who notice can often not help but think "Goodness, is THIS what Christianity is? Well I want no part of it. In fact, this is stupid and I had better fight it!". I have good friends who think that way. One of whom went from being an anti-theist to simply atheist because he realized after meeting me that Christianity isn't necessarily about fighting science and stopping development, it can be about love and compassion as well. In fact I've been told several times by multiple people 'you're the reason I gained some faith in Christianity's viability as an ethical platform and maybe more' and often in the same or other conversations 'seriously? Creationism isn't really christianity? Maybe christianity isn't nonsense then'

So what do you want me to do? Should I lie to you and say that you're not pushing people into damnation? That wouldn't be very good would it. More pleasant maybe. But not good.

AV1611VET said:

Yes, I do, Tiberius -- until you show me this evidence that disagrees with how the Bible says the universe came into existence, there's really nothing to discuss.

You guys keep accusing me of not listening to evidence to creationism, yet you won't give me one data point that defeats Genesis 1:1.

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The whole Big Bang theory, observable expansion of the universe thing neatly disagrees with genesis 1, and it has a foundation in reality.

I've seen this flowchart before, and it applies to you as well.

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Yes it does. However, only one of us has broken the rules laid out in it.

AV1611VET said:

The only one? no, but can you think of a better one?

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They persecute criminals too...

Tiberius said:

The whole Big Bang theory, observable expansion of the universe thing neatly disagrees with genesis 1, and it has a foundation in reality.

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You cannot show me the Big Bang -- only on paper.

It may disagree with Genesis 1 verbally, but then Genesis 1 disagrees with it verbally as well.

To think that God wanted His children to understand how the universe got started, then not have the Big Bang 'discovered' until the 20th century, does not make sense.

Tiberius said:

They persecute criminals too...

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What's your point? since they persecute criminals, it's okay to persecute us as well?

The Bill of Rights insures no pogrom will occur legally on U.S. soil -- so I guess you guys have to take your pogroms to the Internet, eh?

I'd like to see one atheists here say, "I may disagree with what you Christians say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Christians died for atheists in WW2, have any atheists died for Christians?

If so, don't stomp on their graves by wanting us to move to an island all our own, or hoping someday we'll all be gone, or whatever.

I can't remember now who wanted it, but one poster here just recently wanted me outright banned -- no warnings, no infractions, just outright banned.

And another person seconded it.

This is nothing but pogrom-thinking.

In my [right to have an] opinion, of course.

AV1611VET said:

To think that God wanted His children to understand how the universe got started, then not have the Big Bang 'discovered' until the 20th century, does not make sense.

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To think that God wanted His children to waste their time on internet debates, then not have the computers 'discovered' until the 20th century, does not make sense.

Upisoft said:

To think that God wanted His children to waste their time on internet debates, then not have the computers 'discovered' until the 20th century, does not make sense.

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Nope -- Jesus said to take the Gospel to the highways and byways -- and although I believe this includes the Internet highway as well, it also included all the highways and byways that preceded it.

AV1611VET said:

Nope -- Jesus said to take the Gospel to the highways and byways -- and although I believe this includes the Internet highway as well, it also included all the highways and byways that preceded it.

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I see, but still 20th century.. That makes no sense. An early copy of the gospel with digital signature should have done miracles. Also original JPEG images of Jesus on the cross would be a massive help. Can you imagine DVD collection of His teachings, filmed by Peter or John. What a blast. And what? Those things were not available at His time. Makes no sense at all.

Upisoft said:

I see, but still 20th century.. That makes no sense. An early copy of the gospel with digital signature should have done miracles. Also original JPEG images of Jesus on the cross would be a massive help. Can you imagine DVD collection of His teachings, filmed by Peter or John. What a blast. And what? Those things were not available at His time. Makes no sense at all.

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Makes no sense to whom? you?

You do realize that, had they had that technology back then, we may not be here today?

I believe God stunted the growth of technology -- specifically at the Tower of Babel -- so technology would not advance too quickly.

In addition, God let Aristotle stunt the growth of technology for 2000 years.

Aren't you glad?

AV1611VET said:

I believe God stunted the growth of technology -- specifically at the Tower of Babel -- so technology would not advance too quickly.

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Then you have your own explanation why the Big Bang theory was not developed earlier. You see, one needs really impressive technology to make the telescopes you need to look that far away. You will need it to send things in orbit to observe gamma rays and microwaves. And the Hubble telescope.

Upisoft said:

Then you have your own explanation why the Big Bang theory was not developed earlier. You see, one needs really impressive technology to make the telescopes you need to look that far away. You will need it to send things in orbit to observe gamma rays and microwaves. And the Hubble telescope.

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The Big Bang, like evolution, only exists on paper.

The Big Bang was lying around long before we got all this 'really impressive technology'.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Big Bang, at least in its prescient form, was discussed in Democritus' days.

AV1611VET said:

The Big Bang, like evolution, only exists on paper.

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Well supported paper, unlike your self-supported paper.

AV1611VET said:

The Big Bang was lying around long before we got all this 'really impressive technology'.

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Where is dad to ask you why you suppose the "same state"????

AV1611VET said:

It wouldn't surprise me if the Big Bang, at least in its prescient form, was discussed in Democritus' days.

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Well, they were talking about atoms... so maybe. But they didn't have any evidence at all, so I guess they did what the logic dictates and scrapped the idea.

Upisoft said:

Well supported paper, unlike your self-supported paper.

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LOL -- you don't know the history of that Paper very well, do you?

Satan has tried and tried to get It removed from existence, even piece-by-piece and yet It still stands, doesn't It?

AV1611VET said:

The Big Bang, like evolution, only exists on paper.

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You mean like the bible?

AV1611VET said:

The Big Bang, like evolution, only exists on paper.

The Big Bang was lying around long before we got all this 'really impressive technology'.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Big Bang, at least in its prescient form, was discussed in Democritus' days.

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Then how do you exaplin the physical evidence for the Big Bang?