Bible-Creation-Evolution (3)

[thaumaturgy]

Those feeling were an attack from satan to get you to abandon your faith.

No those feelings were a serotonin inbalance in the synapses.

Religion was there all along and didn't provide any assistance or help in the matter.

Religion for me had to be jettisoned. It provided no value and was a hindrance to me.

They are called mind battles. You signed your soul over to the devil and he quit attacking you because he had you in his camp.

Well, to be fair, he also gave me a free toaster as well.

Everyone goes though a time of testing to see if they give in or they overcome adversity.

Well, if that is the case then God forgot to step in and help out.

There was nothing there for me.

I get your point, honestly I do. But it was a long painful battle that really wasn't anything to do with religion, but religion didn't provide any solace, help or anything but more possible damage for me.

As I said, your religion is good for you. It isn't for me. I have no use for it and with time I finally saw it for what it was for me. My problems were a stepping stone to me finally making an assessment of my faith and what value it held for me.

 

[thaumaturgy]

@ Thaumaturgy: how many versions of Romans 8:1 have you read?

What's the required minimum?

I think you and the other poster missed my point. Religion was doing nothing for me of value. My brain didn't process the same type of "feeling" yours does for your visions of God. That lead me to reassessing the validity of religion in the world around me.

To my view (and believe me I spent a LOT of time analyzing this) it came up lacking. I've read and studied extensively so this isn't a matter of my not doing my homework.

Not because of some "false teaching" or some "trick of an imaginary evil god", but because of what I looked at around me.

It started with my inability to take the comfort from the same religion that you probably get good feelings from. So upon closer inspection I realized that it all made much more sense without religion for me.

PSA: guilt is from satan

But can one accept "grace" unless one realizes one is undeserving of it?

Otherwise it is salvation by works, is it not?

Isn't guilt part and parcel of the whole package?

 

[thaumaturgy]

In short, these guys love science and nature just as you do, but apparently you see something (or Something) in nature that they once saw, but no longer do; and I'm afraid for you, lest you too err from grace.

Can FaithGuardian be like many, many, many scientists I know and be a scientist and a Christian?

One of my good friends at my current job is a very active man in his Church. He believes in God and does a lot in support of his faith. He is sorely tested at times by things going on around him and he finds support in his faith.

On top of that he's one of the sharpest scientists I know! He could wax the floor with most of us in terms of raw chemical knowledge.

I'm proud to know him and even though we disagree on faith he's an inspiration to see how he handles his trials.

It is not unthinkable or impossible to be a good Christian and a scientist and good at both.

 

[razeontherock]

I think you and the other poster missed my point. Religion was doing nothing for me of value. My brain didn't process the same type of "feeling" yours does for your visions of God. That lead me to reassessing the validity of religion in the world around me.

To my view (and believe me I spent a LOT of time analyzing this) it came up lacking. I've read and studied extensively so this isn't a matter of my not doing my homework.

Not because of some "false teaching"

Isn't guilt part and parcel of the whole package?

I don't mean to attack you, but while you say false teaching had nothing to do with it, you demonstrate the result of false teaching. Hopefully the way I snipped your post down makes it clear how and why I say this?

I quite got your point, otherwise I wouldn't have responded with anything other than a question asking for clarification. I think you made your point quite well, and better than most!

Religion did nothing for you; got it. Brain processing a feeling, re: visions of God? (Or anything else?) Irrelevant. How could study not remove such a comment?

Romans 8:1 is still the missing link, and what is required is not a minimum # of translations read, but understanding. Understanding which would've removed your last question here before it was asked.

 

[AV1611VET]

You don't know how good I think it is to see you posting here again, Thaumaturgy.

Nice to see you back --

 

[thaumaturgy]

Romans 8:1 is still the missing link, and what is required is not a minimum # of translations read, but understanding. Understanding which would've removed your last question here before it was asked.

Again, my point being that it wasn't just the unrequited guilt that killed religion for me! It was a starting point. It was only a starting point for me to take a step back and examine what religion was and what it meant.

To me it fell apart upon closer examination. NOT because I felt guilt all the time and religion wasn't doing anything to help me. NOT because God seemed to leave me during the darkest time of my life.

Those things did NOT kill my faith. But those things were the catalyst to get me to view religion free of the encumbrances of my need to find it holy and beyond question.

During the winter of 1984-5 when I came closest to committing suicide and felt as bad as I could possibly be and God remained silent, even that did not kill my religious devotion! It wasn't for another 20 years that I finally took up the task of trying to understand what it was that I believed and what it was that I had held holy and beyond question all my life.

It was my spiritual path. One I wouldn't wish on anyone else but I'm glad I took it. It worked for me.

Reading and re-reading Romans 1:8 in any given translation will not change what happened subsequently in my analysis of religion. If it kept me from viewing my religion dispassionately it would have been problematic for me.

That's my point. The guilt, the pain, the lack of feelings of anything like a "real" connection to a God or Christ didn't kill my faith until I tried to understand why those feelings eluded me.

Religion for me was pain. It had to go. It is not pain for everyone. And I'm glad for that.

If that is what God wanted for me then he got it quite right. I rather hope in that case that God doesn't exist rather than that he wishes his adherents to feel lost, alone and confused and still "love" him and believe in him.

 

[razeontherock]

Reading and re-reading Romans 1:8 in any given translation will not change what happened subsequently

Nothing short of a De-Lorean would change history, but it's 8:1, not 1:8. You are broadcasting loud and clear, this has been your missing link.

me to view religion free of the encumbrances of my need to find it holy and beyond question.

And here you demonstrate another BASIC flaw in thinking; Holy =/= beyond question. My faith would've been deserted far before 1985 if I had made such a mistake!

I rather hope in that case that God doesn't exist rather than that he wishes his adherents to feel lost, alone and confused and still "love" him and believe in him.

Getting rid of the religion = pain was certainly part of G-d's plan for you. The problem is you threw the baby out with the bathwater, but of course this was still an improvement. When we remove one evil we are to be sure we fill that void with goodness - otherwise ... let's just say there are "consequences."

 

[sandwiches]

Getting rid of the religion = pain was certainly part of G-d's plan for you. The problem is you threw the baby out with the bathwater, but of course this was still an improvement. When we remove one evil we are to be sure we fill that void with goodness - otherwise ... let's just say there are "consequences."

Seems like things didn't turn out as this god had hoped or expected, then.

 

[razeontherock]

Seems like things didn't turn out as this god had hoped or expected, then.

We have evidence the fat lady has not sung yet! (He posted recently) Yet you do point out that free will (as the term is used within Christianity) is indeed a potent force.

 

[Tiberius]

I've seen Christians use the term to mean a great deal of things. Perhaps you need to be more specific?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Nothing short of a De-Lorean would change history, but it's 8:1, not 1:8. You are broadcasting loud and clear, this has been your missing link.

Do you think maybe I made a typo there? Could that be? Yes, I've read Romans. The whole book. ERGO, I've read Romans 8:1.

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Please, just give me a break. Maybe, just maybe, someone who isn't you can actually be able to think.

And here you demonstrate another BASIC flaw in thinking;

Look, I respect the fact that you believe in God. Why is it so tough to respect other people's ideas? Why am I always in such error all the time? Is it because I don't believe the same as you?

Holy =/= beyond question.

Well, then, I questioned the holy and it came up lacking for me. Clearly it didn't for you. I called it beyond question precisely because that is the nature of faith. Perhaps you read Hebrews 11:1? How does one question evidence of what we do not see?

Theologians have had millenia to "prove" God and the best we have are wordgames like the Ontological Argument, circular reasoning like the Teleological Argument and infinite regressions like the first uncaused cause. And in the end the only way I ever figured out how to parse it is to "let go and let God".

My faith would've been deserted far before 1985 if I had made such a mistake!

I respect your faith but I do not care about your faith. I was responding to AV's discussion of why I left the faith. You needn't try to get your "salvation medal" on my behalf. Go spread your Gospel to another heathen.

Getting rid of the religion = pain was certainly part of G-d's plan for you.

And it worked!

That was what my whole point has been about all along. Yet you seem to want to try to "re-convert" me. You want to find flaws in my thinking, and how I have erred. Good for you. But please have at least a fraction of the respect for my thoughts and feelings as I have for yours.

You see, religion didn't do it for me. But I'm glad it gets you all warm and fuzzy and I respect that.

But I can tell you what I greatly disrespect about all religion: It doesn't allow that non-adherents can be functional people as well.

Look at your posts in the recent string: you've done nothing but try to point out flaws in my thinking. I've misread this, I didn't read that (because you mistook a typo for a failure). It's always me who is in error.

That is what I find offensive about religion: the adherents can't possibly imagine that the opposing side can be anything but dead wrong all the time.

Flaws, logic errors, etc.

I understand you have a "Great Commission" to force your faith on all those around you. I don't care for that. If you want to force feed God to the unbelievers, please do so for someone else.

I guarantee you you are not impressing me, nor are you making your "religion" palatable for me.

I really like Luke 6:31 and I hope to live by that aphorism. I know it isn't for everyone, though.

The problem is

See? "the problem is...". I've made another mistake!

you threw the baby out with the bathwater, but of course this was still an improvement. When we remove one evil we are to be sure we fill that void with goodness - otherwise ... let's just say there are "consequences."

"Consequences"? Such as?

This wouldn't happen to be the patented Christian "threat gambit", perchance? That's another thing, you see, that really drove a wedge between religion and me. I can't stand the thought of a lifetime of feeling guilt on top of the normal pain that comes with regular existance only to be followed around constantly by the threat of eternal torment or other "consequences". Quote Romans 8:1 to me again! Then tell me why treating people with disrespect and veiled "threats" is A-OK because I'm walking after the spirit.

You may not be a fire-and-brimstone type, but I guarantee you there are people out there ostensibly in your faith who are and who will use whatever means necessary to get one to "fear" the Lord thy God. Love? Who needs love when fear can do the job just as well?

Honestly, I can think of no greater way to end life than to simply "cease to exist". It is the only thing I find good about the end of life. To cease.

 

[British Bulldog]

Honestly, I can think of no greater way to end life than to simply "cease to exist". It is the only thing I find good about the end of life. To cease.

That's a great quote. I agree with you with one slight caveat. I've no interest in eternal existence in heaven - or hell (it goes without saying) - but I would love a sneak peek of the future of our civilisation and what happens to the human race in the future. I would like that very much. Once I'd had my sneak previews of life on earth in the years 2111, 2211, 2511, 3011, 5011, 10,011, 20,011, 50,011, 100,011, 500,011, 1,000,011, 10,000,011, 100,000,011 and a billion years in the future, I'd be happy to have the lights switched off and the power supply to the old noggin cut, assuming I'm about 100 that is, and my body doesn't work any more.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's a great quote. I agree with you with one slight caveat. I've no interest in eternal existence in heaven - or hell (it goes without saying) - but I would love a sneak peek of the future of our civilisation and what happens to the human race in the future. I would like that very much. Once I'd had my sneak previews of life on earth in the years 2111, 2211, 2511, 3011, 5011, 10,011, 20,011, 50,011, 100,011, 500,011, 1,000,011, 10,000,011, 100,000,011 and a billion years in the future, I'd be happy to have the lights switched off and the power supply to the old noggin cut, assuming I'm about 100 that is, and my body doesn't work any more.

So have you thought about having yourself placed in cryogenic suspension 14 times; or do you really want us to take this with anything other than a grain of salt?

 

[British Bulldog]

So have you thought about having yourself placed in cryogenic suspension 14 times; or do you really want us to take this with anything other than a grain of salt?

God, no, I don't want to be revived, but not knowing the future would be my one little niggle before riding the conveyor belt through the plush curtains.

 

[thaumaturgy]

That's a great quote. I agree with you with one slight caveat. I've no interest in eternal existence in heaven - or hell (it goes without saying) - but I would love a sneak peek of the future of our civilisation and what happens to the human race in the future. I would like that very much. Once I'd had my sneak previews of life on earth in the years 2111, 2211, 2511, 3011, 5011, 10,011, 20,011, 50,011, 100,011, 500,011, 1,000,011, 10,000,011, 100,000,011 and a billion years in the future, I'd be happy to have the lights switched off and the power supply to the old noggin cut, assuming I'm about 100 that is, and my body doesn't work any more.

I too am curious about the future, so I'd agree with the caveat of just seeing how things go. But as for my personal existence beyond this one, I'd be happy to switch off the lights and leave the party.

 

[Freodin]

I too am curious about the future, so I'd agree with the caveat of just seeing how things go. But as for my personal existence beyond this one, I'd be happy to switch off the lights and leave the party.

Getting to know the future and seeing how things go would be interesting. But that is not what Christianity offers.

There is no future in the afterlife.

There is no history. There is just eternity.

 

[Jazer]

No those feelings were a serotonin inbalance in the synapses.

As I said, your religion is good for you. It isn't for me. I have no use for it and with time I finally saw it for what it was for me. My problems were a stepping stone to me finally making an assessment of my faith and what value it held for me.

You continue to use the word: "religion". What you needed was a Relationship with your Creator and Healing. All of Creation is broken and God is doing a work of restoration. To bring Creation back to His plan and purpose. I do not have a problem with religion per se. But I know people that have a problem with it. Jesus use to preach against religion.

Mat 23 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like to white washed sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 

[Jazer]

I'd be happy to switch off the lights and leave the party.

I was always raised that you help clean up the mess before you leave a party.

 

[razeontherock]

Do you think maybe I made a typo there? Could that be? Yes, I've read Romans. The whole book. ERGO, I've read Romans 8:1.

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Please, just give me a break. Maybe, just maybe, someone who isn't you can actually be able to think.

I never said anything to the effect that you can't. I did point out that the ramifications of this one verse were obviously never applied to your life, and I asked you how many versions you'd read it in. I have never met anyone yet who continued in the Lord and didn't continue to grow in their understanding; not just after their first read, but throughout their whole life. In fact, far and away the best sermon I've ever heard came from a no-name little old man in his 90's, reading his way through the whole Bible for some ridiculously high number of times, approaching 1,000. It showed!

Your over-reaction here is predictable, but you might settle down and observe the point I made?

Why is it so tough to respect other people's ideas?

There is no lack of respect for your ideas on my part. You've made it plain that one very central idea within the Gospel, never penetrated your heart. I never suggested that was the only issue, I couldn't possibly know that and I'd be surprised if it was. Still, this one element is so significant it alone could drive a wedge between you and the source of Life. Yet you continually refer to "religion." Jazer addressed that difference well.

Well, then, I questioned the holy and it came up lacking for me. Clearly it didn't for you. I called it beyond question precisely because that is the nature of faith.

No, that is NOT the nature of Faith.

the only way I ever figured out how to parse it is to "let go and let God".

And much like Romans 8:1, what the heck does that even mean? Ever try it on the highway?

You want to find flaws in my thinking

Not at all. It was presented to me, loud and clear. I would be in sin if I did not point out what I was shown.

You see, religion didn't do it for me. But I'm glad it gets you all warm and fuzzy and I respect that.

Religion makes me sick, quite literally. G-d set me free from that, which doesn't mean religion doesn't continually tempt with all it's vices.

But I can tell you what I greatly disrespect about all religion: It doesn't allow that non-adherents can be functional people as well.

I have done no such thing, but I'm glad you can open up about your distaste. Where have I even hinted that you're not functional? Romans 8:1 is some terribly awkward language, in the middle of horrifically difficult chapters, and even St. Peter said Paul is difficult to understand. In my experience over 80% of people in the pews every Sunday don't grasp the Grace of God.

That is what I find offensive about religion: the adherents can't possibly imagine that the opposing side can be anything but dead wrong all the time.

I have said no such thing. You made one lapse of understanding quite plain, and then another. It might be that if I knew you for years I would never find another such "chink in the armor."

I understand you have a "Great Commission" to force your faith on all those around you.

Ok, prove me wrong I don't need to get defensive about it

The Great Commission is not about force.

I really like Luke 6:31 and I hope to live by that aphorism. I know it isn't for everyone, though.

It's hard to go wrong with the words of Jesus, isn't it? If someone saw me clearly not understanding a basic tenant, I would hope they would point that out to me as best they could. As a fellow believer, they actually owe me that. This is what I've done here, with you.

"Consequences"? Such as?

This wouldn't happen to be the patented Christian "threat gambit", perchance? That's another thing, you see, that really drove a wedge between religion and me. I can't stand the thought of a lifetime of feeling guilt on top of the normal pain that comes with regular existance only to be followed around constantly by the threat of eternal torment or other "consequences".

Again you immediately go to guilt, then to hell as a threat. Nothing of the sort is contained in my words, concepts, or thoughts. In fact it pertains to this life, in the here and now. How this might apply to your situation I can only guess:

you throw out the baby (a real relationship with the Almighty) with the bathwater, (religion) and leave that void empty. It is replaced with mistrust and suspicion rather than love or willingness to listen, and the last state is worse than the first.

I shouldn't be surprised that G-d's Love as expressed via me gets rejected, but I am held accountable if I stifle it.

 

[razeontherock]

Getting to know the future and seeing how things go would be interesting. But that is not what Christianity offers.

There is no future in the afterlife.

There is no history. There is just eternity.

This is pure conjecture; no such thing is revealed.