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Bible and science?

devin553344

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How does a whale drown in a flood?
Whales sometimes die? Or beach themselves? Besides it's just an idea I have knocking around in my mind. Not putting a lot of faith into it. But it could be the flood evidence I think. Regardless of skepticism.
 
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trophy33

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That's OK.. if you believe in Christ, you are saved... Just because you don't believe that God told the truth about the flood,...

God did not say that the Flood was planetary. At least not to me.
 
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JacksBratt

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God did not say that the Flood was planetary. At least not to me.
What, exactly, did He say to you?

Maybe consider these word:Did Noah’s Flood Cover the Whole Earth?

Consider these few quotes of the many: ‘the face of the earth (i.e. planet)’ (6:1); ‘end of all flesh… the earth is filled with violence … I will destroy them with the earth’ (6:13); ‘destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven, and everything that is in the earth shall die’ (6:17). If God had intended to describe a global world-destroying flood, He couldn’t have said it any more clearly.

Furthermore, God promised never to send another flood like Noah’s Flood (9:11,15), but there have been many local floods, even regional floods, since Noah’s time. If Noah’s Flood was only local, then God lied to us. Likewise, there was no need for Noah to build an ark for his survival. He had up to 120 years’ warning (6:3), long enough to walk anywhere on the earth, certainly out of the region of the coming local flood.

Perhaps more convincing is the fact that Jesus Christ based His teaching of coming judgment on all mankind on the fact that Noah’s Flood judged all mankind (Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 17:26-27). A local flood implies a partial judgment. Likewise, Peter based his prophecy that the existing planet will ‘melt with fervent heat’ (II Peter 3:10) and an entire new heavens and new earth will be re-created (3:13) on the historical fact of the global Flood of Noah’s day (3:6). All things considered, few doctrines are taught as clearly in Scripture as that of the global Flood.
 
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trophy33

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What, exactly, did He say to you?
We are both talking about an ancient text given by people and transmitted by people.

We must learn what they meant, not what YEC preachers think it means.
 
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JacksBratt

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We are both talking about an ancient text given by people and transmitted by people.

We must learn what they meant, not what YEC preachers think it means.
What do you mean "ancient text given by people and transmitted by people?"

Check post # 30..

Adam knew Methuselah.
Methuselah knew Shem.

Shem knew Issac.

That is not a lot of "transmitting" if that's what you meant.

Shem knew Issac... think about that.. the son of Noah who survived the flood.. knew Issac.

One could argue with your logic that we don't need to learn what Old earth atheistic Darwinian theistic evolutionist preachers think it means..
So, that argument is just "he said... she said".
 
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Unnamed Guy

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When you try to apply science to biblical stories there are a lot of fallacies and they are hard to avoid. The first is the assumption that you actually know enough to analyze a story.

The first thing you run into in the flood story is that there is no physical evidence, but tribes all around the world recorded a flood and they all agreed on all the details. Science or no science, they all saw something, and they all saw the same thing.

Then you learn about China. The name means "middle kingdom". Middle of what? The Chinese saw the tree of life in the north sky and the sea of confusion in the south sky. The Earth had equatorial rings in those days, and spokes in the rings made it look like a muddy sea. It was observed and recorded by other civilizations too.

People lived almost a thousand years before the flood, but not more than 120 after. It is pretty clear that the tree of life was taken down at that time, and the collapsing sea of confusion looked like rainfall.

Seashells and fossils on mountains? Think of something else!
 
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Job 33:6

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When you try to apply science to biblical stories there are a lot of fallacies and they are hard to avoid. The first is the assumption that you actually know enough to analyze a story.

The first thing you run into in the flood story is that there is no physical evidence, but tribes all around the world recorded a flood and they all agreed on all the details. Science or no science, they all saw something, and they all saw the same thing.

Then you learn about China. The name means "middle kingdom". Middle of what? The Chinese saw the tree of life in the north sky and the sea of confusion in the south sky. The Earth had equatorial rings in those days, and spokes in the rings made it look like a muddy sea. It was observed and recorded by other civilizations too.

People lived almost a thousand years before the flood, but not more than 120 after. It is pretty clear that the tree of life was taken down at that time, and the collapsing sea of confusion looked like rainfall.

Seashells and fossils on mountains? Think of something else!

Did tribes around the world really agree on all of the details? Did other tribes and nation's regard Noah by name? Or did they talk about two of every animal traversing the planet to the ark?

Or were their stories limited to large scale floods without particular details beyond there being a massive amount of water?

You referred to the Chinese. Do the Chinese describe Noah and a flood story in which two of every animal went to an ark?
 
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Job 33:6

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Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

Here is a flood described by the Chinese, which appears to have a suggested date similar to that of the date suggested for Noah's flood.

But if we read the narrative, aside from vast amounts of water, the story is completely different
 
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Unnamed Guy

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Did tribes around the world really agree on all of the details? Did other tribes and nation's regard Noah by name? Or did they talk about two of every animal traversing the planet to the ark?

Or were their stories limited to large scale floods without particular details beyond there being a massive amount of water?

You referred to the Chinese. Do the Chinese describe Noah and a flood story in which two of every animal went to an ark?

It is well known that there were several versions of the flood story. Detractors tend to assume that whoever wrote the bible copied them, ignoring the other interpretation, that they all witnessed the same thing.

No, they did not use the same names or place the ark on the same mountain. They weren't even speaking the same language.
 
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trophy33

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What do you mean "ancient text given by people and transmitted by people?"

Check post # 30..

Adam knew Methuselah.
Methuselah knew Shem.

Shem knew Issac.

That is not a lot of "transmitting" if that's what you meant.

Shem knew Issac... think about that.. the son of Noah who survived the flood.. knew Issac.

One could argue with your logic that we don't need to learn what Old earth atheistic Darwinian theistic evolutionist preachers think it means..
So, that argument is just "he said... she said".

Its year 2019 now. We are different people with different vocabulary and mindset. Their world is not our world:

They were not talking about the blue rotating spherical planet when saying "all the earth, all the mountains under heaven"etc. They were talking about the land they were living it, it was the whole world for them. They did not know there is Australia or Greenland, too.
 
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Job 33:6

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It is well known that there were several versions of the flood story. Detractors tend to assume that whoever wrote the bible copied them, ignoring the other interpretation, that they all witnessed the same thing.

No, they did not use the same names or place the ark on the same mountain. They weren't even speaking the same language.

The differences between flood stories goes far beyond just using different languages. The stories involve different people, different miracles, different God's etc.

This runs contrary to your statement that they "agree on all the details".


"Upon the insistence of Four Mountains, and over Yao's initial hesitation, the person Yao finally consented to appoint in charge of controlling the flood was Gun, the Prince of Chong, who was a distant relative of Yao's through common descent from the Yellow Emperor.[12]"

"According to the main mythological tradition, Gun's plan of flood control was through the use of a miraculously continuously self-expanding soil, Xirang.[13] Gun chose to obtain the Xirang by stealing it from the Supreme Divinity, which he did; however, the Supreme Divinity became quite angered at this importunity..[14] Year in and year out, many times, and to great extents; Gun applied the magical Xirang earth in attempt to block and barricade the flood waters with dams, dikes, and embankments (which he built with the special powers of the magic soil). However, Gun was never able to abate the problems of the Great Flood. Whether his failure to abate the flood was due to divine wrath or to engineering defects remains an unanswered question – although one pointed out over two thousand years ago by Qu Yuan, in his "Heavenly Questions". [15]"

"
Even after nine years of the efforts of Gun, the flood continued to rage on, leading to the increase of all sorts of social disorders. The administration of the empire was becoming increasingly difficult; so, accordingly, at this point, Yao offered to resign the throne in favor of his special adviser(s), Four Mountains: however, Four Mountains declined, and instead recommended Shun – another distant relative to Yao through the Yellow Emperor; but one who was living in obscurity, despite his royal lineage.[16]

Yao proceeded to put Shun through a series of tests, beginning with marrying his two daughters to Shun and ending by sending him down from the mountains to the plains below where Shun had to face fierce winds, thunder, and rain.[17] After passing all of Yao's tests, not the least of which being establishing and continuing a state of marital harmony together with Yao's two daughters, Shun took on administrative responsibilities as co-emperor.[18] Among these responsibilities, Shun had to deal with the Great Flood and its associated disruptions, especially in light of the fact that Yao's reluctant decision to appoint Gun to handle the problem had failed to fix the situation, despite having been working on it for the previous nine years. Shun took steps over the next four years to reorganize the empire, in such a way as to solve immediate problems and to put the imperial authority in a better position to deal with the flood and its effects.

Although Shun's organization (or reorganization) of the flooded and increasingly flooded lands into zhouor islands (the political ancestors of the modern zhouor provinces, both of which may be written with the same character, ) alleviated some of the administrative difficulties as a work around to various problems, the fact remained that despite the additional four years of effort, Gun still had not only failed to achieve any success towards solving the main problem of the ongoing flooding, but the water even kept on rising. Gun insisted on staying the course with the dikes, insisting that despite the overwhelming failure so far that the people work even harder and to continue to build more and higher.[19]Not only that, but Gun questioned the legitimacy of Shun as a ruler due to his modest background.[20]"

"
Gun's demiseEdit
With Gun's overwhelming failure to control the flood waters and his questioning of the legitimacy of Shun's rule, he became labeled as an intransigent. Accordingly, as part of his administrative reforms, Shun had Gun banished to Feather Mountain. Accounts vary considerably about the details of Gun's demise; but, in any case, the sources seem to agree that he met the end of his human existence at Feather Mountain (although again accounts vary as to whether this end was death, through execution by Zhurong, or through a metamorphic transformation into — depending on account — a yellow bear, a three-footed tortoise, or a yellow dragon.[29])"

"Yu tried a different approach to the project of flood control; which in the end having achieved success, earned Yu renown throughout Chinese history, in which the Gun-Yu Great Flood is commonly referred to as "Great Yu Controls the Waters" (Chinese: 大禹治水; pinyin: Dà Yǔ Zhì Shuǐ). Yu's approach seems to have involved an approach more oriented toward drainage and less towards containment with dams and dikes. According to the more fancily embellished versions of the story it was also necessary for him to subdue various supernatural beings as well as recruit the assistance of others, for instance a channel-digging dragon and a giant mud-hauling tortoise (or turtle)."

Yu the Great - Wikipedia




This story is far different from the Christian global flood story. It involves different people, different miracles, different Gods. It really is a completely different story. The only thing it shares in common, is that there was a lot of water spread across the land at some time in the last 4,000 years.

This isn't justification for belief in a global flood or a 6000 year old earth. And it certainly doesn't affirm "all the details", rather quite the contrary, the two stories share little to nothing in common.

But one thing that humanity does share in common around the world, os that we all experience natural disasters. Tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, floods etc. Mankind also shares a pretty good ability of telling stories.

And so in the absence of evidence for something world wide, and with evidence for things like natural disasters and large floods (big floods like we see today), the logical conclusion is that these flood stories were inspired by large and chaotic, natural disasters.
 
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JacksBratt

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Its year 2019 now. We are different people with different vocabulary and mindset. Their world is not our world:

They were not talking about the blue rotating spherical planet when saying "all the earth, all the mountains under heaven"etc. They were talking about the land they were living it, it was the whole world for them. They did not know there is Australia or Greenland, too.
So, I take it that you don't see the canon as the actual words of God. Or...think God was lying when He said :

Numbers 23:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Proverbs 30:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
5 “Every word of God is flawless
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.


If we could say "well this is 2019" and "we are different people" with "different vocabulary and mindset".... then we could just take the ball and run.. do whatever we want. Twist the scripture, toss out what we feel is dated.... what on earth would the solid truth of the words of our God be then? Just ideas from the past that are good for entertainment and maybe to consider as one opinion?

The bible is the Inspired Words of our Creator. They are unchanging and always true..

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

In the end, all the "wisdom" and "knowledge" of men... is drivel and speculation based on the wee bit that even the most intelligent minds know of this world.

Like I said... it's like the sculpture arguing within itself as to what tools the sculptor used, how long it took, where the stone came from and even how much it weighs..... Pure lunacy.
 
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Job 33:6

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The Mt St helends canyon is derived of volcanic Ash layers, not brittle faulted rock. Of course ash can erode much more readily than quartzite.

Polystrate fossils to not cross cut formations of various ages (just strata of like ages, of individual formations).

The rest of your response is too vague to address.

@JacksBratt and you never responded to my above quoted post
 
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JacksBratt

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The differences between flood stories goes far beyond just using different languages. The stories involve different people, different miracles, different God's etc.

This runs contrary to your statement that they "agree on all the details".


"Upon the insistence of Four Mountains, and over Yao's initial hesitation, the person Yao finally consented to appoint in charge of controlling the flood was Gun, the Prince of Chong, who was a distant relative of Yao's through common descent from the Yellow Emperor.[12]"

"According to the main mythological tradition, Gun's plan of flood control was through the use of a miraculously continuously self-expanding soil, Xirang.[13] Gun chose to obtain the Xirang by stealing it from the Supreme Divinity, which he did; however, the Supreme Divinity became quite angered at this importunity..[14] Year in and year out, many times, and to great extents; Gun applied the magical Xirang earth in attempt to block and barricade the flood waters with dams, dikes, and embankments (which he built with the special powers of the magic soil). However, Gun was never able to abate the problems of the Great Flood. Whether his failure to abate the flood was due to divine wrath or to engineering defects remains an unanswered question – although one pointed out over two thousand years ago by Qu Yuan, in his "Heavenly Questions". [15]"

"
Even after nine years of the efforts of Gun, the flood continued to rage on, leading to the increase of all sorts of social disorders. The administration of the empire was becoming increasingly difficult; so, accordingly, at this point, Yao offered to resign the throne in favor of his special adviser(s), Four Mountains: however, Four Mountains declined, and instead recommended Shun – another distant relative to Yao through the Yellow Emperor; but one who was living in obscurity, despite his royal lineage.[16]

Yao proceeded to put Shun through a series of tests, beginning with marrying his two daughters to Shun and ending by sending him down from the mountains to the plains below where Shun had to face fierce winds, thunder, and rain.[17] After passing all of Yao's tests, not the least of which being establishing and continuing a state of marital harmony together with Yao's two daughters, Shun took on administrative responsibilities as co-emperor.[18] Among these responsibilities, Shun had to deal with the Great Flood and its associated disruptions, especially in light of the fact that Yao's reluctant decision to appoint Gun to handle the problem had failed to fix the situation, despite having been working on it for the previous nine years. Shun took steps over the next four years to reorganize the empire, in such a way as to solve immediate problems and to put the imperial authority in a better position to deal with the flood and its effects.

Although Shun's organization (or reorganization) of the flooded and increasingly flooded lands into zhouor islands (the political ancestors of the modern zhouor provinces, both of which may be written with the same character, ) alleviated some of the administrative difficulties as a work around to various problems, the fact remained that despite the additional four years of effort, Gun still had not only failed to achieve any success towards solving the main problem of the ongoing flooding, but the water even kept on rising. Gun insisted on staying the course with the dikes, insisting that despite the overwhelming failure so far that the people work even harder and to continue to build more and higher.[19]Not only that, but Gun questioned the legitimacy of Shun as a ruler due to his modest background.[20]"

"
Gun's demiseEdit
With Gun's overwhelming failure to control the flood waters and his questioning of the legitimacy of Shun's rule, he became labeled as an intransigent. Accordingly, as part of his administrative reforms, Shun had Gun banished to Feather Mountain. Accounts vary considerably about the details of Gun's demise; but, in any case, the sources seem to agree that he met the end of his human existence at Feather Mountain (although again accounts vary as to whether this end was death, through execution by Zhurong, or through a metamorphic transformation into — depending on account — a yellow bear, a three-footed tortoise, or a yellow dragon.[29])"

"Yu tried a different approach to the project of flood control; which in the end having achieved success, earned Yu renown throughout Chinese history, in which the Gun-Yu Great Flood is commonly referred to as "Great Yu Controls the Waters" (Chinese: 大禹治水; pinyin: Dà Yǔ Zhì Shuǐ). Yu's approach seems to have involved an approach more oriented toward drainage and less towards containment with dams and dikes. According to the more fancily embellished versions of the story it was also necessary for him to subdue various supernatural beings as well as recruit the assistance of others, for instance a channel-digging dragon and a giant mud-hauling tortoise (or turtle)."






This story is far different from the Christian global flood story. It involves different people, different miracles, different Gods. It really is a completely different story. The only thing it shares in common, is that there was a lot of water spread across the land at some time in the last 4,000 years.
KomatiiteBIF, you have, in your avatar that you are a Christian. Why would you compare these stories, to those of the Bible, which is the true word of God?

Is it not enough that every culture has a story of a massive flood... then.. that our creator told us exactly what took place?

These other stories may be passed on down over generations. However, as I stated, Shem lived long enough to know Issac.... This is not a story corrupted by generations of errors and mistakes.

From your handle here, Komatiite, I can guess that you have some geological background. This field is one that is steeped in the old earth. Only those willing to take condescension and ridicule ever come out and state a biblical view of this science.
 
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Job 33:6

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KomatiiteBIF, you have, in your avatar that you are a Christian. Why would you compare these stories, to those of the Bible, which is the true word of God?

Is it not enough that every culture has a story of a massive flood... then.. that our creator told us exactly what took place?

These other stories may be passed on down over generations. However, as I stated, Shem lived long enough to know Issac.... This is not a story corrupted by generations of errors and mistakes.

From your handle here, Komatiite, I can guess that you have some geological background. This field is one that is steeped in the old earth. Only those willing to take condescension and ridicule ever come out and state a biblical view of this science.

You made a statement about my St helens and a canyon developed after the eruption. I pointed out that the canyon was carved through volcanic Ash. This is a factual statement, there are pictures, photographs, descriptions etc.

You cannot compare erosion of loose, unconsolidated ash, with the erosion of rock with something like the Grand canyon.

Erosion of loose ash, is like running water in a sandbox. You can erode loose ash far quicker with less power and force, than you can erode the high density metamorphic rocks of the Grand canyon.

It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Do you have a response?
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Only those willing to take condescension and ridicule ever come out and state a biblical view of this science.

Bit like complaining that Tesla hires engineers instead of priests to get cars out of their factories.

https://i.redd.it/2k64fqokvdo11.png

TLDR

"The Bible teaches us how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go." -Cardinal Caesar Baronius
 
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Job 33:6

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Yes, but why bother? You can refute anything by simply refusing to believe it. If you don't believe something it is nonsense by definition.

all I am saying is that the Mount saint Helens eruption involved the erosion of loose and unconsolidated Ash. The Grand canyon consists of various dence rock formations. To suggest that because the area around Mount saint Helens was eroded after a volcanic eruption, the Grand canyon could therefore possibly have been eroded by floodwaters, is really just a deceptive comparison.

And this has nothing to do with anyone's religious beliefs it is just a matter of fact.
 
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