Bible and science?

[Job 33:6]

Yes but in order for the whales to have been lifted up into the mountains instead of being beached during the evaporation of a flood, one must also believe that the mountains were created much less than 1-15 million years ago, since that's how old they say the fossils are in some places.

That puts it in the human species timeline: Human - Wikipedia

Which is relatively a short time ago compared to the age of the dinosaur. 245-66 million years ago.

And the current species started about 10-14 million years ago. Which is about the timing of those whale fossils (1-15 millions years old), suggesting a bible correlation to an Ark of Noah if you ignore the timeline of the bible and say it is in different units.

And the point I'm also trying to get at is this: How is it that the earth formed over the billions of years, cooled and then after such a long time, only a few million years ago, had massive upheavals that formed mountains? Where did the energy of such formations come from? I'm truly puzzled at that idea and find it interesting.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you take Noah's story with some parable, you will draw the conclusion that it was God talking to Moses and telling him the history of the earth (be it slightly different somehow?)

To judge the concepts described in your post here, you would need to state the name of the specific fossil in reference, then identify the locality. Once that is done, then we can identify the orogenic event responsible, and can go from there.

Example: fish of the devonian Catskill formation

Catskill Formation - Wikipedia

The strata is dated back some 400 million years ago. What orogenic process unfolded on the east coast at this time? The Acadian orogeny.

To give a specific answer, specifics of the fossils in question, and their locality, must be stated.

Some prehistoric whales of Pakistan date back 30 million years ago, but are subject to uplift associated with the collision of India into Asia in Himalayan orogenesis. The Himalayas continue to rise to this very day, and as the mountains rise inch by inch every year, so too do the Marine fossils locked inside the mountains.

If this is something that you are truly interested in, the science I mean, feel free to name the species and it would only take a minute to look it up.

 

[mark kennedy]

I always thought science was an invaluable source for understanding many of the specifics in Scripture, truth doesnt generally conflict with truth.

 

[Job 33:6]

It's tough because, to suggest a global flood, implies more than just questions of evidence in geology. A global flood narrative really butts heads with many fundamental concepts of just about every major field of scientific research.

People don't like to hear that, but it is what it is. And so we either have to give up science, or we have to examine alternative perspectives on the global flood narrative.

In the earliest days of geology, people went in search for and advocated for things like drop stones being evidence for a global flood, among many other things.

As time passed, people became aware of drop stones as glacial features.

People thought that maybe a massive flood would lift mountains into the sky. Then we became aware of plate tectonics and physical qualities of rock and processes of rock metamorphosis. We learned about shear stress and strain, brittle and ductile deformation and things of the like.

As we studied more and more, it became evident that a literal interpretation of a global flood did not yield supportive evidence. And it still doesn't. Nothing has changed in the past 300 years contrary to what Ken ham says.

And so now we are in an awkward dance. Where we have to re-examine our historical interpretations. Even though this is a very challenging process for us, it is a process that must unfold. Science isn't going to stop just because someone decided to make an ark museum in Kentucky. Either we keep up, or get left in dark times.

 

[Unnamed Guy]

I have heard people argue that the Bible and science contradicts, e.g. along the lines of claiming that there are many species of a certain type of animal (I am not saying I believe the Bible and science contradicts, I am just saying this is what some people claim) "contrary" to Noah's ark?

What are your thoughts on this?

I think you need to clarify your question. It's hard to find two members of the same church who can agree on what the bible says. Scientists are famous for pronouncing gobbledygook and then lobbying for laws to force everybody to accept it as finest science. The only thing about Noah's ark that everybody agrees on is that there is no physical evidence of any such event. And asking for "thoughts" is just bonk - Uh, I mean, I don't understand why you would do that.

 

[trophy33]

Do you think that God could not flood the entire earth?

God can do anything that is logically possible.

But we are talking about history, not about God's ability.

 

[JacksBratt]

God can do anything that is logically possible.

Is a man walking on water...."logically possible"?

How about a man speaking to a storm, commanding it to stop.. and it stops?
or... a man taking 5 buns and two fish... and feeding more than 5000 people with 12 baskets of left overs?

But we are talking about history, not about God's ability.

You identify as a Christian. Does history show any evidence for a man dying, being buried for three days, coming back to life, preaching sermons, eating, walking through walls... floating up into the sky?

You better believe more on what God can do and say's that He did.. than what humans have told you to be historic.

If... if your going to proclaim to be a Christian... that is.


I find it funny that we can, as the work of art, hold an arrogant attitude as to what the artist did.

Can you imagine all the static and two dimensional images in the painting of the last supper, while being nothing more than media which reflects different colors.. stuck on a canvas and unchanging for centuries..... all this multi colored media arguing among its created self as to what brush the artist used, where he purchased his canvas and how long it took him to create them?

How absurd.

Yet, that's what we do. We claim, as the creation, to know more than the creator, who has told us exactly what He did.

 

[trophy33]

Is a man walking on water...."logically possible"?

How about a man speaking to a storm, commanding it to stop.. and it stops?
or... a man taking 5 buns and two fish... and feeding more than 5000 people with 12 baskets of left overs?

Yes. What I mean by not being logically possile are things like a "round circle" or "stone so heavy that God cannot lift it" and similar logical errors.

You identify as a Christian. Does history show any evidence for a man dying, being buried for three days, coming back to life, preaching sermons, eating, walking through walls... floating up into the sky?

Yes, Christ's death and resurrection are historically provable.

You better believe more on what God can do and say's that He did.. than what humans have told you to be historic.

We are not talking about what God can do, but what historically happened. A brutal cataclysmic planetary flood 4000 years ago did not happen, there is no evidence for it and much evidence against it.

Actually, the text itself implies it was local.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes. What I mean by not being logically possile are things like a "round circle" or "stone so heavy that God cannot lift it" and similar logical errors.


Yes, Christ's death and resurrection are historically provable.



We are not talking about what God can do, but what historically happened. A brutal cataclysmic planetary flood 4000 years ago did not happen, there is no evidence for it and many evidences against it.

Actually, the text itself implies it was local.

Well, Myst33, I would disagree with you. There is evidence for a global flood, if you talk to those with the proper degrees and letters after their name that are shunned and condescended and rebuked by the evolutionist, atheistic Darwinian academia.

I put much more faith in the words of the creator than I do in the words of men that don't believe..... I mean don't want to believe in a creator.

It all depends on who you want to argue with. The powerful overwhelming and world wide academia...or the real truth.

It is of no matter, however. Truth is truth no matter what others state. If you have been indoctrinated by the overwhelming forces of today's education, college and universities... you have been brain washed to regurgitate all kinds of anti biblical gobly gooke.

Science is no longer a string of observations which continually unfold discoveries that show an ever revealing of a roadway to truth..

No... today, Science has a predetermined mandated agenda of what they want you to believe as truth...

Any evidence, observation or discovery that is on that line is amplified and presented as ultimate discovery.

Any evidence , observation or discovery that contradicts the predetermined truth.. is condescended, the presenter is discredited, funding is removed and the person withers in the demise of countering the agenda.

 

[trophy33]

Well, Myst33, I would disagree with you. There is evidence for a global flood, if you talk to those with the proper degrees and letters after their name that are shunned and condescended and rebuked by the evolutionist, atheistic Darwinian academia.

I put much more faith in the words of the creator than I do in the words of men that don't believe..... I mean don't want to believe in a creator.

It all depends on who you want to argue with. The powerful overwhelming and world wide academia...or the real truth.

It is of no matter, however. Truth is truth no matter what others state. If you have been indoctrinated by the overwhelming forces of today's education, college and universities... you have been brain washed to regurgitate all kinds of anti biblical gobly gooke.

Science is no longer a string of observations which continually unfold discoveries that show an ever revealing of a roadway to truth..

No... today, Science has a predetermined mandated agenda of what they want you to believe as truth...

Any evidence, observation or discovery that is on that line is amplified and presented as ultimate discovery.

Any evidence , observation or discovery that contradicts the predetermined truth.. is condescended, the presenter is discredited, funding is removed and the person withers in the demise of countering the agenda.

1) You cant have a global disaster like this and then get nice geological columns with simple-to-complex organisms layers.

2) There is absolutely not enough space for all 9 million species of animals in the Noah's ark. All birds, mammals, sea fish, now extinct species like dinosaurs, mammoths, first mammals, sea mammals etc. The ark is large enough to save animals from the middle eastern locality, however.

3) Noah landed in the same area he started (middle East), why?

4) Why Noah did not have to save any sea fish and other animals living in waters but not being able to survive cataclysmic flood?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Jesus promised His one Church the fullness of truth, its teaching never conflicts with any natural truth revealed by science.

Galileo affair - Wikipedia

 

[JacksBratt]

1) You cant have a global disaster like this and then get nice geological columns with simple-to-complex organisms layers.

2) There is absolutely not enough space for all 9 million species of animals in the Noah's ark. All birds, mammals, sea fish, now extinct species like dinosaurs, mammoths, first mammals, sea mammals etc. The ark is large enough to save animals from the middle eastern locality, however.

3) Noah landed in the same area he started (middle East), why?

4) Why Noah did not have to save any sea fish and other animals living in waters but not being able to survive cataclysmic flood?

1/ The Geologic column is false. Look it up with someone other than an Atheistic, Darwinian evolutionist.
Check out any of the evolutionists gone Christian.

2/ There was no need for 9 million species.

3/ He didn't have a motor or a sail???? IDK.. Maybe the God that gave him the idea to build it, the God that caused the flood... put him there for a reason.

 

[trophy33]

1/ The Geologic column is false. Look it up with someone other than an Atheistic, Darwinian evolutionist.
Check out any of the evolutionists gone Christian.

2/ There was no need for 9 million species.

3/ He didn't have a motor or a sail???? IDK.. Maybe the God that gave him the idea to build it, the God that caused the flood... put him there for a reason.

I think you know that your view does not make sense, you just want to believe it because you think you must believe it.

You do not have to. No Christian creed is in danger if you will not believe in a global flood 4000 years ago.

This is not written by an atheist:
Flood Geology and the Grand Canyon: What Does the Evidence Really Say? - Articles

 

[JacksBratt]

I think you know that your view does not make sense, you just want to believe it because you think you must believe it.

You do not have to. No Christian creed is in danger if you will not believe in a global flood 4000 years ago.

This is not written by an atheist:
Flood Geology and the Grand Canyon: What Does the Evidence Really Say? - Articles

You do realize that a mini canyon, much like the Grand Canyon, was formed in hours when Mt St Helen erupted.....right? Not only that but it also reinforced the method that polystrate trees were created as trees ended up in muddy water, roots down and finished, later, with their trunks being covered by multiple layers of mud.. just like we see at Joggins Nova Scotia.. right?

Any flood that does not cover the entire earth leaves the possibility for some creatures or beings to have escaped this destructive time. The bible states that all life that breathed through nostrils, or breathed air, was killed. Having a portion of the earth effected... leaves room for escape.

That's OK.. if you believe in Christ, you are saved... Just because you don't believe that God told the truth about the flood, won't effect the fact that you are saved by the even more supernatural events of the life and works of Christ.

I understand, it is hard to fight upstream toward the truth when academia is forcing you the opposite direction.

 

[Job 33:6]

You do realize that a mini canyon, much like the Grand Canyon, was formed in hours when Mt St Helen erupted.....right? Not only that but it also reinforced the method that polystrate trees were created as trees ended up in muddy water, roots down and finished, later, with their trunks being covered by multiple layers of mud.. just like we see at Joggins Nova Scotia.. right?

Any flood that does not cover the entire earth leaves the possibility for some creatures or beings to have escaped this destructive time. The bible states that all life that breathed through nostrils, or breathed air, was killed. Having a portion of the earth effected... leaves room for escape.

That's OK.. if you believe in Christ, you are saved... Just because you don't believe that God told the truth about the flood, won't effect the fact that you are saved by the even more supernatural events of the life and works of Christ.

I understand, it is hard to fight upstream toward the truth when academia is forcing you the opposite direction.

The Mt St helends canyon is derived of volcanic Ash layers, not brittle faulted rock. Of course ash can erode much more readily than quartzite.

Polystrate fossils to not cross cut formations of various ages (just strata of like ages, of individual formations).

The rest of your response is too vague to address.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'll also note that many polystrate fossils have root systems present beneath them. If strata we're hypothetically all deposited in a flood, im not sure why trees would even be rooted. Unless they grew after the flood had ended. I would think that a global flood would kill the trees.

 

[Job 33:6]

1/ The Geologic column is false. Look it up with someone other than an Atheistic, Darwinian evolutionist.
Check out any of the evolutionists gone Christian.

2/ There was no need for 9 million species.

3/ He didn't have a motor or a sail???? IDK.. Maybe the God that gave him the idea to build it, the God that caused the flood... put him there for a reason.

Here's a section geologic column, it spans from the Carboniferous to the ordovician, which is around 2/5ths of the post pre cambrian column:

Google Image Result for http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/statemap/483/Moorefield_images/Moore_cross.jpg

Even if we counted genus, rather than species, it would still be far too many animals.

And of course number 3 isn't even a response.

 

[Job 33:6]

There's nothing false about saying that lower layers rest below shallower layers. It just is what it is. A column is indeed present.

 

[steve78]

[QUOTE

I don't know why the Noah's ark account seems to some people to "contradict" science?[/QUOTE]

That's easy cause for a start there were no Dinosaurs on Noah's ark and going by the dimensions given in the bible the Ark would have been too small for two of every animal to have been included.

 

[steve78]

The Bible is the Truth of God. So, in any place where the Bible and science seem to conflict, the Bible must win out.

I disagree. Science is provable, the bible is not.

So are you saying the whales in the hills are not from the flood of Noah? Ancient is a relative term perhaps. And I've heard that carbon dating is subjective to interpretation. So I guess I'm not really sure. What do you think?

How does a whale drown in a flood?

 

[Job 33:6]

I disagree. Science is provable, the bible is not.


How does a whale drown in a flood?

I think the general idea is that a massive wave pulled whales from the sea, and thrusted them, with other large masses of land, up into the atmosphere and on top of higher land masses. In the sense that they didn't die from drowning, rather they died from being launched large distances and into land.

Which is interesting because, if rock itself were obliterated and metamorphosed during the flood, one might wonder why largely compete whale fossils exist today. Or any fossils for that matter.