BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[FineLinen]

Yeah I understood. At first I almost wanted to start out by saying "I can't accomodate your -even the unrighteous sinners after death- part literally", but I figured I'd just ask you to interpret those verses. I quoted God, did I not? Or to be literal, the software did for me, praise God.
In 1 Timothy 4:10 it says "especially those that believe", meaning also the unbelievers, does it not?
In Luke 3:6, well, all flesh, I wonder what you make of it, as also of my last question.

Dear Jord: ALL is the radical all of the koine pas.

Our God will radically be the God of all flesh! And to expand the horizon a wee bit, every last being in the heavens, earth, and underworld will bow before Him, IN/EN His Name in unrestrained worship!

Yes Jord: especially, or malista in the koine, means a special group known as believers or those that trust in Him. They are His elect trophies of His love and grace, but only a part (a large part) of God being the Saviour of the all.

 

[Saint Steven]

@FineLinen
All things; from him, through him, for him.
Both the source and the destination. The boomerang of creation.

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[FineLinen]

@FineLinen
All things; from him, through him, for him.
Both the source and the destination. The boomerang of creation.

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Dear Saint: This is the very boomerang that expresses ta pante. What begins in Him, ends in Him. The ALL!

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
nor thorns infest the ground;
he comes to make his blessings flow
far as the curse is found,
far as the curse is found,
far as, far as the curse is found. -Isaac Watts-

Curse= katanathema=

By metonymy: An accursed thing put to the thing announced.

“The leaves of the Tree are for healing the nations. Never again will anything be cursed. The Throne of God and of the Lamb is at the center. His servants will offer God service—worshiping, they’ll look on his face, their foreheads mirroring God. Never again will there be any night. No one will need lamplight or sunlight. The shining of God, the Master, is all the light anyone needs. And they will rule with him age after age after age.” -The Message-

 

[Der Alte]

Yeah I understood. At first I almost wanted to start out by saying "I can't accomodate your -even the unrighteous sinners after death- part literally", but I figured I'd just ask you to interpret those verses. I quoted God, did I not? Or to be literal, the software did for me, praise God.
In 1 Timothy 4:10 it says "especially those that believe", meaning also the unbelievers, does it not?
In Luke 3:6, well, all flesh, I wonder what you make of it, as also of my last question.

The Bible is the word of God but neither of these verses is quoting God. Whenever we find a verse that seems to contradict what God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said should we A. Reinterpret what God/Jesus said to line up with what the disciple said. Or B. Reinterpret what the disciple said to line up with what God/Jesus said?
Here are a few verses where Jesus talks about man's fate after death.
Jesus taught,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[Jord Simcha]

The Bible is the word of God but neither of these verses is quoting God.

Sorry, I don't follow. I believe I quoted God, and John the Baptist who is called the greatest prophet by Jesus Christ.

Whenever we find a verse that seems to contradict what God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, said should we A. Reinterpret what God/Jesus said to line up with what the disciple said. Or B. Reinterpret what the disciple said to line up with what God/Jesus said?

That's interesting. Because I can do that too with your verses. I can just simply say, yeah eternal fire and all that here, but God says right there He is Saviour of all men, and that He'll never shame me, so I can trust that his punishment won't be too bad. So then I can say it is the eternal fire and damnation verses that need re-interpretation.

Here are a few verses where Jesus talks about man's fate after death.
Jesus taught,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
​

Perhaps somebody else who is better at Greek than I am can explain those verses better than I can (considering what and what isn't eternal, specificly), but I can at least tell you that some believe that God is fire and Jesus Christ the (scarlet) worm.

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.

​

…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.​

…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Very convincing points to consider that fearing God is definitely desired, I will consider that when I continue to make my case of universalism to unbelievers, so thanks for that. But your verses don't take away from the fact that Romans 10:11 is true (so He won't punish harder than His believers find appropriate in my opinion). To me that's a big verse. And He'll reconcile all things (you haven't refuted it), all knees will bow, and I believe Revelation 21:4. Would be hard for me not to cry ever if any people I knew would be in hell don't you think? Or even that I've never heard of.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry, I don't follow. I believe I quoted God, and John the Baptist who is called the greatest prophet by Jesus Christ.

That's interesting. Because I can do that too with your verses. I can just simply say, yeah eternal fire and all that here, but God says right there He is Saviour of all men, and that He'll never shame me, so I can trust that his punishment won't be too bad. So then I can say it is the eternal fire and damnation verses that need re-interpretation.

Perhaps somebody else who is better at Greek than I am can explain those verses better than I can (considering what and what isn't eternal, specificly), but I can at least tell you that some believe that God is fire and Jesus Christ the (scarlet) worm.
​

Very convincing points to consider that fearing God is definitely desired, I will consider that when I continue to make my case of universalism to unbelievers, so thanks for that. But your verses don't take away from the fact that Romans 10:11 is true (so He won't punish harder than His believers find appropriate in my opinion). To me that's a big verse. And He'll reconcile all things (you haven't refuted it), all knees will bow, and I believe Revelation 21:4. Would be hard for me not to cry ever if any people I knew would be in hell don't you think? Or even that I've never heard of.

I'm in the middle of a series you might find informative. Here's a link.

In this third talk of our Hope and Hell conference, Robin paints a sweeping picture of the story of salvation beginning with creation and ending with the eschaton. He then poses the significant question—which fits best into this picture—hell or universal salvation? -- more at link --

 

[Der Alte]

Sorry, I don't follow. I believe I quoted God, and John the Baptist who is called the greatest prophet by Jesus Christ.

The problem is you didn't quote God, in 1 Tim 4:10 Paul is speaking, and John the baptist, Luke 3:6, was a great prophet but the words of John cannot supersede the words of Jesus.

That's interesting. Because I can do that too with your verses. I can just simply say, yeah eternal fire and all that here, but God says right there He is Saviour of all men, and that He'll never shame me, so I can trust that his punishment won't be too bad. So then I can say it is the eternal fire and damnation verses that need re-interpretation.

Still interpreting the words of the disciples so they supersede the words of Jesus, Himself, so you can support your presupposition that all men are saved.

Perhaps somebody else who is better at Greek than I am can explain those verses better than I can (considering what and what isn't eternal, specificly), but I can at least tell you that some believe that God is fire and Jesus Christ the (scarlet) worm.

What some people believe is irrelevant if it is not supported by clear scripture not inference and assumption.
Someone better in Greek would be me I started learning to speak Greek the year of Sputnik one and formally studied Hebrew and Greek about 2 decades later.

Very convincing points to consider that fearing God is definitely desired, I will consider that when I continue to make my case of universalism to unbelievers, so thanks for that. But your verses don't take away from the fact that Romans 10:11 is true (so He won't punish harder than His believers find appropriate in my opinion). To me that's a big verse. And He'll reconcile all things (you haven't refuted it), all knees will bow, and I believe Revelation 21:4. Would be hard for me not to cry ever if any people I knew would be in hell don't you think? Or even that I've never heard of

.

Rom 10:11 says nothing about God "won't punish harder than His believers find appropriate in my opinion." God decides what is appropriate not men. That is just your unsupported opinion.
See my next post for my study on the words aion and aionios translated eternity and eternal.

 

[Der Alte]

After reading scads of posts saying aion does not mean eternity and aionios does not mean eteranal I did this study of both words.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36, John 4;14, John 6:27,
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος] ​

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[Too long continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.

 

[Jord Simcha]

The problem is you didn't quote God, in 1 Tim 4:10 Paul is speaking, and John the baptist, Luke 3:6, was a great prophet but the words of John cannot supersede the words of Jesus.

Still interpreting the words of the disciples so they supersede the words of Jesus, Himself, so you can support your presupposition that all men are saved.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16
I don't believe it matters where in the word of God we can find it and/or who wrote it down. It is all scripture.
Of Jesus we know that He spoke in parables, so it might make sense that we sometimes understand His words less well than other scripture. I don't believe the words of the "disciples" have less weight as they are written, because I believe Jesus Himself agrees with every single word of it. By the way if Jesus saying about John the Baptist that he is the greatest prophet isn't an endorsement I don't know what is.

What some people believe is irrelevant

Well it's interesting to me. And I think pretty much every believer is familiar with the God is a consuming fire verse.

Rom 10:11 says nothing about God "won't punish harder than His believers find appropriate in my opinion." God decides what is appropriate not men. That is just your unsupported opinion.

It's God that binds Himself to that promise. He won't make me ashamed (of Him). Do you agree with that? God decides what is appropriate and we will agree (that is the promise, in my opinion).

 

[Der Alte]

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16
I don't believe it matters where in the word of God we can find it and/or who wrote it down. It is all scripture.
Of Jesus we know that He spoke in parables, so it might make sense that we sometimes understand His words less well than other scripture. I don't believe the words of the "disciples" have less weight as they are written, because I believe Jesus Himself agrees with every single word of it. By the way if Jesus saying about John the Baptist that he is the greatest prophet isn't an endorsement I don't know what is.

That is a flimsy excuse. Nothing I quoted from Jesus is a parable so you cannot claim His words do not mean exactly what they say.

Well it's interesting to me. And I think pretty much every believer is familiar with the God is a consuming fire verse.

Fire does not always consume.

Exo 3:2-3
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. ​

It's God that binds Himself to that promise. He won't make me ashamed (of Him). Do you agree with that? God decides what is appropriate and we will agree (that is the promise, in my opinion).

Rubbish. What does your shame or lack of have to do with this discussion? I think you are still twisting scripture trying to support your assumptions/presuppositions. You think just because you would be ashamed of God if He punished sinners eternally, God would not do that.
God's thoughts are higher than yours and I'm fairly sure He does not care if you decide to get ashamed at something He has commanded

 

[Jord Simcha]

That is a flimsy excuse. Nothing I quoted from Jesus is a parable so you cannot claim His words do not mean exactly what they say.

And here I am thinking your excuse that I was quoting "disciples" was bad.

Fire does not always consume.

​

That's great news for those who have to go into the lake of fire.

Rubbish. What does your shame or lack of have to do with this discussion? I think you are still twisting scripture trying to support your assumptions/presuppositions. You think just because you would be ashamed of God if He punished sinners eternally, God would not do that.
God's thoughts are higher than yours and I'm fairly sure He does not care if you decide to get ashamed at something He has commanded

What, then, does Romans 10:11 have to do with anything? Why is it in the Bible (twice)? It is God who declares He won't bring shame to His followers, it is not of me wanting.

 

[FineLinen]

And here I am thinking your excuse that I was quoting "disciples" was bad.

​

That's great news for those who have to go into the lake of fire.

What, then, does Romans 10:11 have to do with anything? Why is it in the Bible (twice)? It is God who declares He won't bring shame to His followers, it is not of me wanting.

Dear Jord:The Lake of Fire radiates with two incredible ingredients of Theos, theion and theioo. We can rest assured when the experience of the Lake is consummated, nothing entering it will have not been changed and transformed. NOTHING!

The Divine Fire

Refining & Consuming

I. The operation of the Divine fire depends on what it operates on.

This is one of the most marked peculiarities of common fire. It scatters water; it melts wax; it destroys wood; it hardens clay; it purifies metal. It makes silver valuable; it makes dross worthless. And so with the Divine fire. The apostle dwells on its testing power (1 Corinthians 3:13); but here its actual moral effect on differing characters is indicated. Take classes of character in Malachi's time, and show the different effects which Divine dealings had upon them. Take types of character now, and show how Divine dealings soften or harden.

II. The Divine fire is destructive of the forms of things, not things.

Science now explains that common fire destroys nothing; it only Changes the forms and relations of things. When the state of the wicked is irremediable by any existing moral forces, then their form and relation must be changed. As in the time of the Flood, humanity had to be put in new conditions. God's fire destructions always begin a new regime.

The Divine Fire

 

[Der Alte]

And here I am thinking your excuse that I was quoting "disciples" was bad.'

That is what comes from not actually reading my posts although I explained what I meant "If something written by a disciple seems to contradicts what God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, the proper way to resolve it is interpret what the disciple said to agree with what God or Jesus said NOT the wrong way around as you are doing." You should try it on your two proof texts.

That's great news for those who have to go into the lake of fire.

Not if they will spend eternity there.

What, then, does Romans 10:11 have to do with anything? Why is it in the Bible (twice)? It is God who declares He won't bring shame to His followers, it is not of me wanting.

When one reads Rom 10:11 correctly there is no problem.

Deuteronomy 21:23 his body must not remain overnight on the tree. You must bury him that same day, because cursed of God is the one who has been hanged on a tree.​

Jesus was never ashamed but He was put to shame on the cross because "cursed of God is the one who has been hanged on a tree." Jesus will never put anyone to shame who believes in Him.

NIrV Rom 10:11 Scripture says, "The one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." (Isaiah 28:16)
NIV Rom 10:11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
ASV Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
ESV Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." ​

I have now corrected your false understanding with scripture.

 

[Jord Simcha]

That is what comes from not actually reading my posts although I explained what I meant "If something written by a disciple seems to contradicts what God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, the proper way to resolve it is interpret what the disciple said to agree with what God or Jesus said NOT the wrong way around as you are doing." You should try it on your two proof texts.

I did read it, thanks. I still stand by my reply, that it is all of God.

Reconciling interpretations doesn't rule out that there are false interpretations of direct quotes from the Lord.

Not if they will spend eternity there.

Revelation 22:17 comes after the lake of fire.

When one reads Rom 10:11 correctly there is no problem.

Deuteronomy 21:23 his body must not remain overnight on the tree. You must bury him that same day, because cursed of God is the one who has been hanged on a tree.​

Jesus was never ashamed but He was put to shame on the cross because "cursed of God is the one who has been hanged on a tree." Jesus will never put anyone to shame who believes in Him.

NIrV Rom 10:11 Scripture says, "The one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." (Isaiah 28:16)
NIV Rom 10:11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
ASV Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
ESV Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." ​

I have now corrected your false understanding with scripture.

I fail to see the relevance of Deuteronomy 21:23 in this context.

Romans 10:11 It is just as the Scripture says: "Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame." has 11 translations with "put to shame", 9 translations with "ashamed", 1 "unashamed" and 4 with "disappointed".
I can tell you I believe I won't be disappointed in Jesus Christ ever.

 

[Der Alte]

I did read it, thanks. I still stand by my reply, that it is all of God.
Reconciling interpretations doesn't rule out that there are false interpretations of direct quotes from the Lord.

Then please show me where I have incorrectly interpreted any of the verses I posted.

Revelation 22:17 comes after the lake of fire.

Which doesn't negate vss 14-15

Rev 22:14-15
(14) "How blessed are those who wash their robes so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
(15) Outside are dogs, sorcerers, immoral people, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.​

John stated conditions. If there were no conditions John would have written something like "[everyone] may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."
The converse of vs. 14 is "those who don't wash their robes will not have the right to the tree of life and may not go through through the gates into the city."

I fail to see the relevance of Deuteronomy 21:23 in this context.

It shows why Jesus was put to shame.

Romans 10:11 It is just as the Scripture says: "Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame." has 11 translations with "put to shame", 9 translations with "ashamed", 1 "unashamed" and 4 with "disappointed".
I can tell you I believe I won't be disappointed in Jesus Christ ever

So "put to shame" is the most correct. The word καταισχυνθησεται/kataisxunthesetai [correctly] translated "put to shame " is a Future, Passive, Indicative, third [person] [he/she/it].
Passive means something done to the subject not something they do. Check any Greek grammar online.

 

[DennisTate]

u.r. is GREAT for the world! The world loves it! The more people lost because of it, the world loves ! Just like all the false gospels preventing people (or trying to prevent) from finding the Kingdom of God. To stop people from seeking the Truth. To get people NOT to listen to Jesus! The world / society/ LOVES THAT ! (since the world/ society/ is doing all it can to DRAG everyone down with it)

As you can probably guess I have serious leanings toward Eventual Universal Reconciliation that to my thinking combines with the possibility of a potentially infinite number of Ezekiel 37 events that can spin off from any moment in the past......?????

How could Messiah Yeshua - Jesus be so weak as to be unable to take points in time and use them as a foundation for a new time line........ ????????????????



Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.


This all fits with:


How powerful is Messiah Yeshua - Jesus really?

Rick Joyner:
The Power of His Word

“You seek to know and walk in My power so that you can heal the sick and perform miracles, but you have not even begun to comprehend the power of My word. To resurrect all the dead who have ever lived on earth will not even cause Me to strain. I uphold all things by the power of My word. The creation exists because of My word, and it is held together by My word.

“Before the end, I will reveal My power on earth. Even so, the greatest power that I have ever revealed on the earth, or ever will, is still a very small demonstration of My power I do not reveal My power to cause men to believe in My power, but to cause men to believe in My love.

“If I had wanted to save the world with My power when I walked the earth, I could have moved mountains by pointing a finger Then all men would have bowed to Me, but not because they loved Me or loved the truth, but because they feared My power I do not want men to obey Me because they fear My power, but because they love Me and love the truth.

“If you do not know My love, then My power will corrupt you. I do not give you love so you can know My power, but I give you power so that you can know My love. The goal of your life must be love, not power Then I will give you power with which to love people. I will give you the power to heal the sick because you love them, and I love them, and I do not want them sick." (Pastor Rick Joyner, The Final Quest and The Call)

 

[Jord Simcha]

Then please show me where I have incorrectly interpreted any of the verses I posted.

I'm not saying you did. I can say though that your reply was rather dismissive of the verses as that it was from disciples, rather than

"the proper way to resolve it is interpret what the disciple said to agree with what God or Jesus said"

which means you would give an interpretation (of 1 Timothy 4:10, Luke 3:6, and Colossians 1:20 for example, verses that have been brought up); you just replied with hell verses, not with an actual interpretation.

Which doesn't negate vss 14-15

Rev 22:14-15
(14) "How blessed are those who wash their robes so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
(15) Outside are dogs, sorcerers, immoral people, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.​

John stated conditions. If there were no conditions John would have written something like "[everyone] may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."
The converse of vs. 14 is "those who don't wash their robes will not have the right to the tree of life and may not go through through the gates into the city."

How I see it is the Bride of Christ (us saved people) inviting the immoral people of verse 15 to come drink freely of the water of life (which I believe is the Holy Spirit).

 

[FineLinen]

As you can probably guess I have serious leanings toward Eventual Universal Reconciliation that to my thinking combines with the possibility of a potentially infinite number of Ezekiel 37 events that can spin off from any moment in the past......?????

How could Messiah Yeshua - Jesus be so weak as to be unable to take points in time and use them as a foundation for a new time line........ ????????????????



Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.


This all fits with:


How powerful is Messiah Yeshua - Jesus really?

Dear Dennis: The Lord Jesus Christ has a middle Name. It is Lesous. The Father most glorious began His plan in Himself, and in Himself that glorious plan shall surely be consummated, every last digit. We may fail, He does not.

Lesous = Saviour. Not Saviour of some, Saviour of ALL.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not saying you did. I can say though that your reply was rather dismissive of the verses as that it was from disciples, rather than
"the proper way to resolve it is interpret what the disciple said to agree with what God or Jesus said"
which means you would give an interpretation (of 1 Timothy 4:10, Luke 3:6, and Colossians 1:20 for example, verses that have been brought up); you just replied with hell verses, not with an actual interpretation.
How I see it is the Bride of Christ (us saved people) inviting the immoral people of verse 15 to come drink freely of the water of life (which I believe is the Holy Spirit).

Criticizing me for not doing something you have not done. I posted several verses where Jesus was speaking which I say supersede the verses which you have posted. No response only crickets.

"the proper way to resolve it is interpret what the disciple said to agree with what God or Jesus said"which means you would give an interpretation (of 1 Timothy 4:10, Luke 3:6, and Colossians 1:20 for example, verses that have been brought up); you just replied with hell verses, not with an actual interpretation.

Yes I responded with hell verses which you ignored. You want me to parse your verses while you ignore mine. But my response is coming.

How I see it is the Bride of Christ (us saved people) inviting the immoral people of verse 15 to come drink freely of the water of life (which I believe is the Holy Spirit).

Unsupported opinion. This is not stated or implied.
Now your proof texts.

1Ti 4:10
(10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the l iving God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.​

Col 1:20 which supposedly says all things on earth will be reconciled, righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what. But 2 vss. later vs. 23, Paul says there are conditions

Col 1:23
(23)IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

The condition is IF you continue in the faith etc. The converse of vs. 23 “if you do NOT continue in your faith NOT grounded and NOT settled, and ARE moved away from the hope of the gospel, you will NOT be reconciled [vs. 20]
Let us read more from Paul about UR.

● 1Co 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Gal 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Eph 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​

In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse or more where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died.
Here are more verses which states conditions for salvation.

Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1Co 15:2
(2) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Luk 10:13-15
(13) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
(14) But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! ​

Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.​

A fate worse than death, no salvation

Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luk 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.​

Greater damnation, not salvation.
Now for you proof text, Luk 3:6

Luk 3:4-6
(4) As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
(5) Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
(6) And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.​

In these vss. Luke is quoting Isaiah 40:4-5 but Luke misquoted the word salvation for glory.

Isa 40:4-5
(4) Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
(5) and the glory [כבוד /kabod] ]of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.​

What or who is the salvation that Paul said all flesh would see? c.f. Luk 2:30.

Luk 2:27-30
(27) And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
(28) Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
(29) Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
(30) For mine eyes have seen thy salvation[ ישועה/yeshuah] pronounced the same as Yeshua/ישוע Jesus’ name in Hebrew.​

Now let us review your proof text Rev 22:17.

Rev 22:17
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

Is this an open invitation for all mankind righteous and unrighteous alike or are there certain people who shall in no wise enter as stated in Rev 21:27? What does “in no wise enter” mean in UR land? Does that somehow mean everybody can enter?

Rev 21:27
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

In Rev 22:11 God already abandoned the unjust and the filthy and there is no verse which says they were permitted to enter the city at some time.
Now let us review your proof text Rev 22:17 again.

Rev 22:17
(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

Is this an open invitation for all mankind, saint, sinner, righteous, unrighteous to enter? Let’s read the context of this verse.

Rev 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
[Proof text vs. 17 omitted]
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and
from the things which are written in this book.​

Those who do not do God’s commandments do NOT have the right to the tree of light and may NOT enter through the gates into the city vs. 14,
If you disagree please explain to me how dead people can do the commandments of God? Also please explain how those whose names were not in the Lamb’s book of life when they died, somehow, get their name in the book of life? Rev 21:27 says only “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” can enter the city.
Vs. 19 clearly for those who do certain things God, Himself, will “take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city.” End of the book nothing follows, no reconciliation​