BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[FineLinen]

Then why do you think there is forgiveness of sins outside of Christ?

Dear Skidder:

There is NO forgiveness of sin outside of Christ. NONE!

 

[mmksparbud]

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Yes---one of my favorite passages, quote it often. Without the protection of the blood of Jesus, the wicked can not tolerate the consuming fire that is God. They will perish, they will become ashes, but the saved will be like Meshack, Shadrach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace with Jesus, like the burning bush.

 

[Skidder]

Dear Skidder:

There is NO forgiveness of sin outside of Christ. NONE!

So you don't believe in "UR"?

 

[Der Alte]

...I see God's wrath and punishment as corrective, else why do Christians go around saying, "God loves you, and has a Wonderful Plan for your life!"? ..
...
The Lake of Fire is God's last instrument for correction. Hell is a wicked insertion, [Nonsense! DA] for I have found that the word and the concept come over from paganism. ..[Nonsense! DA]
Where DID our ideas of Hell come from?

Please show me a verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself state unequivocally that God's wrath and punishment is corrective.
.....Where did the idea of hell come from? According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[FineLinen]

So you don't believe in "UR"?

Dear Skidder: You cannot be serious!!!

I Believe

I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

 

[Hillsage]

You seem upset, why? I gave a very open answer, not giving my own opinion how many I believe will be saved. Don't know what my post had to do with omniscience.

Do you mean if God doesn't save all men when Jesus died for all men, He isn't omniscient?

Hmmm, I never felt upset at all when responding. And I've just gone back to re-read, just to see why you would even think that.....Nada reason for you to think that....IMO.

Your post has everything to do with omniscience, as do all those who believe that God knew (omniscient) He had a plan so bad that the devil would win the war for souls. IOW, yes God is omniscient, and 'yes' his ways are still above orthodoxy's ways, and yes he is going to be wholly responsible for his 'salvation plan'" in the COMING AGES". And at the consummation of those ages his plan for salvation by His grace will be appropriated for all whom He died for because they are all His, bought and paid for on the cross of forgiveness, and His responsibility.

The majority church today limits the grace for salvation to the age we live in. The bible does not. The grace shown to us by his "kindness" will be shown to those who weren't "predestined, called, chosen, 'ordained to believe'", by HIS WILL in this age.

EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Christ died FOR ALL and all are His. So after every rule and every authority and every evil power which is in THEM who were not "first fruits" here and now, are dealt with, even they will enjoy the salvation of GOD according to His own WILL....not ours.

JAM 1:18 Of his own WILL he brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

 

[martymonster]

Yes---one of my favorite passages, quote it often. Without the protection of the blood of Jesus, the wicked can not tolerate the consuming fire that is God. They will perish, they will become ashes, but the saved will be like Meshack, Shadrach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace with Jesus, like the burning bush.

What about the lake of fire? Are you saying that the saved go into the lake of fire with the wicked?

 

[Hillsage]

Dear Skidder: You cannot be serious!!!

Oh my brother, did you think it was only the JEWS who had a "veil unlifted" when reading?

 

[mmksparbud]

What about the lake of fire? Are you saying that the saved go into the lake of fire with the wicked?

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

The wicked have no protection---the saved do.

 

[Hillsage]

What about the lake of fire? Are you saying that the saved go into the lake of fire with the wicked?

Yes, along with all Christians who have the "foundation of Christ" but never worked out the full salvation/sanctification of their souls after their spirit was saved. Just like ! Cor 3 confirms.

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Proof positive that FIRE SAVES. Proof positive that that's why Paul turned people over to SATAN that they might be SAVED.

1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Yep, kill the stinking flesh and 'save the spirit' 'made in the image of God'. "God is spirit."

 

[FineLinen]

Oh my brother, did you think it was only the JEWS who had a "veil unlifted" when reading?

Dear Sage: Trotting around on Christian sites is an awakening. The Lord indicates in no uncertain terms that darkness will cover the earth and great darkness the people. That my friend is a perfect atmosphere for the Unlimited One who arises in that background, "but the Lord shall arise upon you, and His glory shall be seen upon you."

I am aware of flaming swords of the Lord swirling in every direction guarding the way to the Tree of Life. Those fiery swords will cost every last one who longs to eat of the fruit of that tree EVERYTHING. Our Father has devised a perfect Plan that brings every last element of our old man to an end. Nothing escapes our Father's holy angelic Host. NOTHING!

 

[FineLinen]

Yes, along with all Christians who have the "foundation of Christ" but never worked out the full salvation/sanctification of their souls after their spirit was saved. Just like ! Cor 3 confirms.

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Proof positive that FIRE SAVES. Proof positive that that's why Paul turned people over to SATAN that they might be SAVED.

1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Yep, kill the stinking flesh and 'save the spirit' 'made in the image of God'. "God is spirit."

Dear Sage and my friend Monster Man: there is exactly one segment of mankind who is not "hurt" by the Lake of all lakes (AKA the 2nd Death). They are all elite Christians known as overcomers. They follow the Lamb in the withersoever. They cannot be hurt because they have been hurt over and over and over again in the School of Father's dealings: there remains nothing left to hurt!

"A pearl is a beautiful thing that is produced by an injured life. It is the tear [that results] from the injury of the oyster. The treasure of our being in this world is also produced by an injured life. If we had not been wounded, if we had not been injured, then we will not produce the pearl." -Stephan Hoeller

 

[martymonster]

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

The wicked have no protection---the saved do.

What I'm saying is, how does that line up with Revelation?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It doesn't say anywhere that the righteous are thrown into the lake of fire, unless you want to include this....

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now, if you do want to include that verse, you have the problem that everyone goes into the fire, is saved.

 

[martymonster]

Yes, along with all Christians who have the "foundation of Christ" but never worked out the full salvation/sanctification of their souls after their spirit was saved. Just like ! Cor 3 confirms.

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Proof positive that FIRE SAVES. Proof positive that that's why Paul turned people over to SATAN that they might be SAVED.

1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Yep, kill the stinking flesh and 'save the spirit' 'made in the image of God'. "God is spirit."

The funny thing is, I was just quoting this verse to someone else. The one thing I will say though, is that God's elect go through God's judgement (the fire) here and now, and then the become that lake of fire, that try the wicked, at the second resurrection.

Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

 

[Skidder]

Dear Skidder: You cannot be serious!!!

I Believe

I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

So you do support UR? A person has to die with Christ to be reconciled.

Colossians 1:21
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Our old man is the root of the problem. "Knowing this that our old man was crucified with him." We have to die to the law through the body of Christ to be married to another. And only those who put their faith in Christ have been crucified with Christ. If they have not been reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, than they are still in their sins. The source of the sin has not been crucified so they are still under God's wrath.

 

[zoidar]

Hmmm, I never felt upset at all when responding. And I've just gone back to re-read, just to see why you would even think that.....Nada reason for you to think that....IMO.

Your post has everything to do with omniscience, as do all those who believe that God knew (omniscient) He had a plan so bad that the devil would win the war for souls. IOW, yes God is omniscient, and 'yes' his ways are still above orthodoxy's ways, and yes he is going to be wholly responsible for his 'salvation plan'" in the COMING AGES". And at the consummation of those ages his plan for salvation by His grace will be appropriated for all whom He died for because they are all His, bought and paid for on the cross of forgiveness, and His responsibility.

The majority church today limits the grace for salvation to the age we live in. The bible does not. The grace shown to us by his "kindness" will be shown to those who weren't "predestined, called, chosen, 'ordained to believe'", by HIS WILL in this age.

EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Christ died FOR ALL and all are His. So after every rule and every authority and every evil power which is in THEM who were not "first fruits" here and now, are dealt with, even they will enjoy the salvation of GOD according to His own WILL....not ours.

JAM 1:18 Of his own WILL he brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

How can God be omniscient, sovereign, yet not everyone will be saved? It is a philosophical question. Some people solve it by saying God chose some people He wanted saved. Others like me solve it by saying God wants everyone to be saved but not all are, because by free will people are resisting the Holy Spirit. There are other options as well.

I don't see the teaching of universialism in the Bible. We have to ask ourselves, do we see it because we so desperately want it to be true, or because the scripture actually teaches it?

I lost my best friend a few years ago, who wasn't a Christian. Of course I want him to be saved, but honestly, I can't know. I'm leaving it to God. I know God will judge him justly.

Christ has laid a mission on me, and that is to proclaim the gospel, so that as many as possible will know Christ and be saved.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't see the teaching of universialism in the Bible. We have to ask ourselves, do we see it because we so desperately want it to be true, or because the scripture actually teaches it.

This came up a week or more ago...

when someone allows their guard against deception down, and starts thinking even a little bit of what the enemy tells him, that appears to open the floodgate for error - they "took in" a little , let the door open to the enemy, and WHAM!, the rest of the enemy's thoughts and temptations become welcome in that person, since they turned away from truth, away from Jesus, away from God the Father, to seek comfort, or other desire(s), and accepted willingly the lies of the enemy - thus darkening their mind, and the eye becoming dark, the whole body is full of darkness, from one small start....

 

[zoidar]

This came up a week or more ago...

when someone allows their guard against deception down, and starts thinking even a little bit of what the enemy tells him, that appears to open the floodgate for error - they "took in" a little , let the door open to the enemy, and WHAM!, the rest of the enemy's thoughts and temptations become welcome in that person, since they turned away from truth, away from Jesus, away from God the Father, to seek comfort, or other desire(s), and accepted willingly the lies of the enemy - thus darkening their mind, and the eye becoming dark, the whole body is full of darkness, from one small start....

That sounds pretty terrible!

 

[mmksparbud]

What I'm saying is, how does that line up with Revelation?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It doesn't say anywhere that the righteous are thrown into the lake of fire, unless you want to include this....

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now, if you do want to include that verse, you have the problem that everyone goes into the fire, is saved.

What is obvious from reading the scriptures is that God is a consuming fire---except for the saved. The fire comes from Go which can not harm the saved, only the lost.

 

[martymonster]

So you do support UR? A person has to die with Christ to be reconciled.

Colossians 1:21
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Our old man is the root of the problem. "Knowing this that our old man was crucified with him." We have to die to the law through the body of Christ to be married to another. And only those who put their faith in Christ have been crucified with Christ. If they have not been reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, than they are still in their sins. The source of the sin has not been crucified so they are still under God's wrath.

All of that stuff that you mentioned, is going to happen, but each in his own order, and it won't be us doing it, but Christ in us. We are simply incapable of it.