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Yes, there it is. "(figuratively speaking)" A perceptive eternity. Rhetorical exaggeration.
I agree, but what do we see here on the forum? The anti-UR folks show up with guns-a-blazing. Bible vs. Bible all over the place. They absolutely make a case. It doesn't mean I buy it, but they are certainly selling it.You're very generous in giving allowance for damnationists to make a case from scripture. There really is no Biblical doctrine of ECT, and it just doesn't stack up on any logical assessment against who God is. The foundations are demonstrably rotten, and the whole thing is a house of cards.
Time, as it were, is definitely on his side.Yes and no. I see it more as God saying 'I can wait forever, but can you hold out forever?'
I believe there is a biblical case for all three doctrines of the final judgment.
- DamnationismEveryone chooses one. And they can all be defended biblically. They are all in conflict with each other though. Which is probably the case you are making.
- Annihilationism
- Universalism
Time, as it were, is definitely on his side.
Everlasting life is not mathematical but in the dimension of quality. "This is everlasting life that we may know You..."
Sure, but doesn't that infer that Damnationism HAS biblical support. Something has to HAVE support for that support to be "woefully insufficient". Right?Well, damnationism suffers from woefully insufficient scriptural support imho. There's only around 14 scriptures to prove it. And considering the consequences - well, a little more would be reasonably expected, especially as it goes against a whole raft of UR texts, and the rest.
If it was a legal claim you'd file a motion for summary dismissal on the grounds of 'no case to answer.' I agree you might not succeed, but only because the bar is set very low in our litigious societies. But you'd demolish them at trial in under a day, on submissions alone and without needing to call any witnesses. It's a shabby and misconceived claim lol.
Quality work requires quality time. "You can't rush art." - The artist in Toy Story 2Which reminds me to finalise this long-awaited summary of the Book of Revelation UR narrative. It's slowly percolating lol.
Sure, but doesn't that infer that Damnationism HAS biblical support. Something has to HAVE support for that support to be "woefully insufficient". Right?
I understand that neither of us agree with it. But I think it helps our relationship with the other side to give them credit for their attempt at an argument. Leaving an open door to discuss it.
[QUOTE="Saint Steven, post: 74573118, member: 411086"
There were trade-offs. If hell is not eternal, then neither is life eternal. That was a tough one to swallow. But it follows logically. Can't have one without the other.
I rest my case. - lolYes, it has a modicum of potential scriptural support...
has [/B]eternal life.
John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Will Adolf Hitler and such people as this, as you say "in Gods love and mercy" enter into the same Kingdom of God?
If they do, this is not a just God and why should we serve Him?
Oh, I see now. That explains it all!"Many made sinners" = "many made righteous"
Many = many
All = all
Some = some
Polus = polus
The victimization comes with a personal threat to them. Once you truly believe in hell, you also truly believe you could end up there if you don't do everything in your power to avoid it. And seemingly, one of those transgressions is NOT believing in hell. So, they see us as a personal threat that may send them to hell, and a public threat to those we may succeed to convince; who would then not take the "proper" precautions to avoid hell. Which then makes us responsible for their damnation. In other words, they feel the need to stop us immediately, for everyone's good. That's what we are up against from my perspective.
They are waiting for us to bring an authoritative biblical directive for them to acknowledge or reject. As we know, this doesn't work that way. We are reverse engineering from the outcome we see (UR) toward the beginning. The best we can do is present the scraps that the translation editors overlooked, or left for us.
Willing victims? What other choice do they think they have? You and I and our brothers know better, but do they? Seems not. They are certainly grappling with cognitive dissonance. What we are saying must resonate on a low level with them. But their VIEW of the Bible is screaming at them to ignore us. They always return to the mantra of God being both love and justice. Which they understand as the extremes in his character instead of the tight relationship we see. We understand that God's love is just and God's justice is love. They see love for the believers and justice for the damned. Which would mean that God actually hates the damned. Why else would you decide to burn someone for eternity?
According to UR we can live like the devil himself, die, suffer partial judgement, and then enter into the Kingdom of God.Fellows, as I was reading up on universalism some things came into mind.
Peter who was crucified for his faith in Christ said he was not worthy to be crucified in the same manner as our Lord and requested to be crucified upside down.
Steven who was stoned to death for his faith, calling on the Lord to forgive them because they didn't know what they were doing.
And on and on, those who gave their lives for Christ.
Will Adolf Hitler and such people as this, as you say "in Gods love and mercy" enter into the same Kingdom of God?
If they do, this is not a just God and why should we serve Him?
And God hates sin, not the sinner, but the sinner has free will, that freedom entails rejecting the truth of salvation, that freedom entails rejecting all the love and beauty God has to offer. .
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