Ben Shapiro's end of the year Devil Talk

[QvQ]

Although Shapiro stated Lewis predicted our time, Shapiro did not state that Lewis predicted his own time.
No one could have predicted that war.

Steinbeck's wave theory of history is that there is always another wave building. He wrote his books about people existing in historical context, the Great Depression which was his time. Everything about the people was unique and individual. The stories are unique but circumscribed and bounded by the set of circumstance dictated by the larger historical facts.

It is a formulation taught in our schools that we can change the flavor of the waves if we "learn from history" and behave in certain, now considered, morally correct ways and don't indulge in certain speech and thought crimes.

However, the very nature of the waves is transcendent and unpredictable.

Knowing all of that, I still join in the game of "predict the next wave." Is that the only reason what Scott Adams said is at all interesting is because, our popular wisdom states that those types of words caused the last big wave and therefore, will cause the next one?

 

[Neutral Observer]

I'm curious about the context and stakes involved in the examples you're thinking of.

You're curious, so am I.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I'm apathetic.

Thus it's difficult for me to imagine being in a situation wherein I cared about the stakes. Hence some people might mistake my apathy for bravery. It's not.

And yes, some people have made that mistake.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Although Shapiro stated Lewis predicted our time, Shapiro did not state that Lewis predicted his own time.
No one could have predicted that war.

Steinbeck's wave theory of history is that there is always another wave building. He wrote his books about people existing in historical context, the Great Depression which was his time. Everything about the people was unique and individual. The stories are unique but circumscribed and bounded by the set of circumstance dictated by the larger historical facts.

It is a formulation taught in our schools that we can change the flavor of the waves if we "learn from history" and behave in certain, now considered, morally correct ways and don't indulge in certain speech and thought crimes.

However, the very nature of the waves is transcendent and unpredictable.

I don't know if history is following these sorts of waves but I do think we underestimate the contributions of people and the relatively static nature of humanity.

Perhaps if it seems like history repeats....it's because it's made by people.

Knowing all of that, I still join in the game of "predict the next wave." Is that the only reason what Scott Adams said is at all interesting is because, our popular wisdom states that those types of words caused the last big wave and therefore, will cause the next one?

Did they? I listened to the interview....and as far as I remember he claimed.


1. There's racist black people who hate white people.
2. Those black people (not all of them) blame white people for all of their problems.
3. Despite having spent a great deal of time and effort on helping and supporting black people....those black racists still hate white people and blame them for their problems.
4. As a result, he's deciding for his own well being, that he cannot help them....because as racists, the problem isn't really him....no amount of help will change anything.
5. To avoid this negative interaction....he's staying away from black people.

Now...I don't think there's really anything wrong with that. He's not advocating for harming anyone....he's explaining what appears to be a rational choice made in his own self interest that prioritizes his health and well being after realizing that there are simply some people who hate him for irrational reasons and he cannot simply change that.

I would disagree with #5....I think it's more helpful to call it out. Call out racism whenever you see it....no matter who does it. If we all did that....and we all agreed racism was a bad thing (or mostly agreed) racism would die out to a large extent. I don't advocate for people losing their jobs....unless the job is dependent upon them not being racist (like a cop or teacher) a racist football player for example should be shamed....but doesn't have to lose his job.

I checked after that last post....and yes, he's being punished. Many publishers are canceling Dilbert in response to his statement.

Contrast that with this person....

Redirect Notice

She's basically a professional racist. She's paid to promote racist ideas....to college students. She doesn't distinguish between white people who aren't racist....and she advocates violence, then tries to walk it back a little. This opinion got pushback as well....but no punishment.

Scott Adam's has tried to deal with racists the wrong way....by entertaining their racist ideas and trying to appease them. His mistake is avoiding all black people because a portion of them are racist...so he no longer has a chance at knowing or interacting with any black people who aren't racists. What he said though....was really just a choice he made for himself and a recommendation to others he thinks are in the same circumstances. I think the recommendation is wrong....but I don't see much controversy about what else he had said.

The controversy is that double standard of him and the professor I linked. He's a white man....and some racists think he simply shouldn't say such things and should be punished for them. She's a black woman....and although she clearly meets the definition of racist (literally all of them, from prejudice against a race, the racial superiority of non-whites, the power she has compared to the people she's speaking to either in the classroom or on TV....all definitions of racist easily apply to her) she can say far worse things and expects no punishment.

If Scott Adams was able to say such things without any expectation of punishment.....there's nothing brave in saying it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're curious, so am I.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that I'm apathetic.

Thus it's difficult for me to imagine being in a situation wherein I cared about the stakes. Hence some people might mistake my apathy for bravery. It's not.

And yes, some people have made that mistake.

Oh ok....I suffer a similar problem but I'm more apathetic about the opinions others hold of me. I'm not really afraid to be wrong or sound stupid....we all do sometimes. I don't know how one becomes apathetic to consequences....but I certainly have failed to realize them at times because I don't care what people think of me.


Edit- do you also do well in job interviews? The apathy you mentioned gets confused with confidence at times in my experience.

 

[Neutral Observer]

Edit- do you also do well in job interviews?

Never had one.

 

[QvQ]

perhaps if it seems like history repeats....it's because it's made by people.

People are made by history. The drought in Grapes of Wrath was the history that made the Joads.

There is a belief in modern times that man is powerful. Man can change the climate. Man can shape history. Man can turn East of Eden into the Garden of Eden. Man eventually, through stem cells and Rna will become immortal.

History is made by all the forces that shape a particular point in time. Winds blew the dust over Oklahoma, changing the history of that State and California and consequently the entire nation. That same wind changed the life's and shaped the views of the people. HIstory, all the forces of nature, made those people into something other than what they had been or would have been.

You mentioned mobs. I don't believe anyone understands what dynamics motivate the mobs of men that occur periodically in history, whether the Golden Hordes under Genghis Khan, the Axis of Germany, Italy or Japan of WWII.

What is known about man is that periodically, either on small scales, such as the Portland Riots or, full scale world war, man gathers into mobs and destroys both his environment and his fellow man.

If a person examines this behavior, it is more akin to locust. It is a force, the same as a strong wind or any other natural phenomena.
This periodic mob behavior, once started, becomes a wave. It is not going to stop until it stops. Appeasement and reason do not work until the mob runs out steam. When it is over, the mob rationalizes, invents excuses and blames whatever.

That is the wave theory of history. Men are merely another force in the winds of time. They don't make history because making is more than being a warm body in a mindless mob (or even a warm body that happens to be born, lives and dies as a cypher in his own time.)
And they are going to do it again...and don't expect it to make one whit more sense than the last time they did it.

Scott Adams, I know what he said. He has a perfect right to say it. And if there are mobs forming in our society, it is best to avoid them.

 

[FireDragon76]

There but for the grace of God...

If you asked 100 people if they would have done what the Nazis did, or even simply turned away, what number would you think would say they'd do the same?

And in passing, I am physically unable to listen to Shapiro.

Nazis understood human nature in a way that Enlightenment Liberalism couldn't, that's how they were able to subvert a democracy.

 

[FireDragon76]

I disagree that there are "demons" who possess people as Dennis Radar claims.

Perhaps the idea of Raders "demons" isn't so far fetched.

We know from psychiatry that people can dissociate, that parts of their personality can become fragmented as people compartmentalize parts of their experience (which is to some extent, ubiquitous). These disintegrating personalities can begin to take on a life of their own, outside of full conscious awareness of the underlying mechanism (most of the mind is like an iceberg, it's invisible to us much of the time, subconscious). In extreme cases, these personalities become distinct alters who believe they are actually somebody else entirely (Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde). I suspect it's a continuum of sorts.

Rader was a man that wanted to appear law abiding (as I've discussed with @2PhiloVoid, he was raised in a religion that traditionally values law and civility to an extreme), but he was into perverse fantasies from an early age. That had to create some cognitive dissonance on some level that couldn't be resolved, and there's evidence he projected his own evil onto the objects of his desire.

 

[QvQ]

Perhaps the idea of Raders "demons" isn't so far fetched.

Yes, the modern version of demon possession. Rader is a psychopath. He does not believe he did anything wrong. He admits he tortured and killed 10 or so women but he does not see why anyone would object to that. He even wrote to the newspaper because he really wanted people to see and appreciate his work but he was too modest to reveal his identity. He was careless in concealing himself so he was caught.
A man without a conscience or any moral compass, yes, but possessed by a demon? I am surprised he would share the glory.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Never had one.

Sorry....how old are you?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, the modern version of demon possession. Rader is a psychopath. He does not believe he did anything wrong. He admits he tortured and killed 10 or so women but he does not see why anyone would object to that. He even wrote to the newspaper because he really wanted people to see and appreciate his work but he was too modest to reveal his identity. He was careless in concealing himself so he was caught.
A man without a conscience or any moral compass, yes, but possessed by a demon? I am surprised he would share the glory.

I wouldn't take the content of his notes too seriously...the man went to great lengths to hide his identity so I'm sure he understands why we object to it.

Still he's about as good an example of evil as one can find. His behavior served no purpose beyond his base self satisfaction.

 

[Bradskii]

Nazis understood human nature in a way that Enlightenment Liberalism couldn't, that's how they were able to subvert a democracy.

The German people voted in '34 to combine the Chancellorship and presidency in the figure of Hitler. By close to 90% of the votes. From wiki:

'Nevertheless, historian Ian Kershaw has judged that even after accounting for the manipulation of the voting process, the results "reflected the fact that Hitler had the backing, much of it fervently enthusiastic, of the great majority of the German people" at the time.'

If you took 43 million Americans or British or present day Germans and time travelled them back to Berlin and they were brought up in the 30's, do you think the vote would have been any different? We'd each like to think we'd be different. But throw in a few bogey men, crank up the patriotism, throw in some decent propaganda, control the media and put someone with charisma in overall charge and any group of people will follow der fuhrer.

 

[Ana the Ist]

People are made by history. The drought in Grapes of Wrath was the history that made the Joads.

Uhhhh...you know that's not a history book, right?

There is a belief in modern times that man is powerful.

Sure.

Man can change the climate.

Yup.

Man can shape history.

Of course.

Man can turn East of Eden into the Garden of Eden.

I don't know about that one.

Man eventually, through stem cells and Rna will become immortal.

Seems unlikely.

History is made by all the forces that shape a particular point in time.

Well I've never been taught history by the wind.

Winds blew the dust over Oklahoma, changing the history of that State and California and consequently the entire nation. That same wind changed the life's and shaped the views of the people. HIstory, all the forces of nature, made those people into something other than what they had been or would have been.

Sounds suspiciously deterministic.

You mentioned mobs.

Yeah.

I don't believe anyone understands what dynamics motivate the mobs of men that occur periodically in history, whether the Golden Hordes under Genghis Khan, the Axis of Germany, Italy or Japan of WWII.

Thpse aren't mobs. Mobs are leaderless...formed out of a shared desire for revenge.

What is known about man is that periodically, either on small scales, such as the Portland Riots or, full scale world war, man gathers into mobs and destroys both his environment and his fellow man.

Sure....for reasons.

If a person examines this behavior, it is more akin to locust. It is a force, the same as a strong wind or any other natural phenomena.

They aren't anything as noble as a locust.

This periodic mob behavior, once started, becomes a wave. It is not going to stop until it stops.

Mobs can be quelled.

Appeasement and reason do not work until the mob runs out steam. When it is over, the mob rationalizes, invents excuses and blames whatever.

The nature of the mob is characterized by the deferred responsibility of moral behavior to the group. You can ask someone in a mob why they did what they did....ultimately, it's because everyone else was doing it.

That is the wave theory of history.

Haven't heard that one before....confused it with something else.

Men are merely another force in the winds of time. They don't make history because making is more than being a warm body in a mindless mob (or even a warm body that happens to be born, lives and dies as a cypher in his own time.)
And they are going to do it again...and don't expect it to make one whit more sense than the last time they did it.

Mobs form for reasons....real or imagined....and revenge is the common thread.

Scott Adams, I know what he said. He has a perfect right to say it. And if there are mobs forming in our society, it is best to avoid them.

Avoid them....or put them down. Revenge isn't some noble pursuit and I don't respect people who willingly abandon their morals because it's in fashion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The German people voted in '34 to combine the Chancellorship and presidency in the figure of Hitler. By close to 90% of the votes. From wiki:

'Nevertheless, historian Ian Kershaw has judged that even after accounting for the manipulation of the voting process, the results "reflected the fact that Hitler had the backing, much of it fervently enthusiastic, of the great majority of the German people" at the time.'

If you took 43 million Americans or British or present day Germans and time travelled them back to Berlin and they were brought up in the 30's, do you think the vote would have been any different? We'd each like to think we'd be different. But throw in a few bogey men, crank up the patriotism, throw in some decent propaganda, control the media and put someone with charisma in overall charge and any group of people will follow der fuhrer.

Well the vote was brought about by the fire.....which was blamed on communists. The fire was either just a fortunate coincidence or a false flag....but the nazis knew how take advantage of it. I don't know if the vote was rigged or not but regardless....these are inconsequential questions. We know nazi tactics included violence and intimidating political opponents....so the idea that it was a free election seems unlikely.

Still, the nazis did not win 90% of the vote (I'm not even sure where you get that number) I don't remember the exact number of votes they had....but they were in the minority for certain.

Most Germans weren't nazis when Hitler took power. Once he did, you couldn't declare yourself anything else.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Perhaps the idea of Raders "demons" isn't so far fetched.

We know from psychiatry that people can dissociate, that parts of their personality can become fragmented as people compartmentalize parts of their experience (which is to some extent, ubiquitous).

DID is a controversial diagnosis made popular by movies and other media....whether or not it's "real" is debatable.

These disintegrating personalities can begin to take on a life of their own, outside of full conscious awareness of the underlying mechanism (most of the mind is like an iceberg, it's invisible to us much of the time, subconscious). In extreme cases, these personalities become distinct alters who believe they are actually somebody else entirely (Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde). I suspect it's a continuum of sorts.

I don't think this applies to Rader. He seems fully aware of who he is and what he's done...at all times.

The sensitivity to trauma which is associated with DID simply doesn't exist to psychopaths. He lives in a world where he doesn't always assess danger or risk the way most people do. He sleeps through tornados that others hide in basements to wait out.

Rader was a man that wanted to appear law abiding (as I've discussed with @2PhiloVoid, he was raised in a religion that traditionally values law and civility to an extreme), but he was into perverse fantasies from an early age. That had to create some cognitive dissonance on some level that couldn't be resolved, and there's evidence he projected his own evil onto the objects of his desire.

There's a certain type of "vindictiveness" that some serial killers claim as motive to their actions. The idea that their victims somehow deserve their end. It's a projection sometimes....but I think it's typically a post hoc rationalization that allows them to ignore what they are.

Gacy did the same thing....the young men or boys he raped and killed were killed because, as Gacy puts it, they were homosexuals. In reality, Gacy was probably the homosexual who couldn't accept his feelings and hated himself on some level for it.

 

[Bradskii]

Still, the nazis did not win 90% of the vote (I'm not even sure where you get that number) I don't remember the exact number of votes they had....but they were in the minority for certain.

It wasn't the federal vote. It was a referendum in '34 on consolidating Hitler's position after they had seized power the year before: 1934 German referendum - Wikipedia

For
38,394,848 - 89.93%

Against
4,300,370 - 10.07%

The Nazis had about 1/3 of the vote in the federal elections of '32, which made them the largest party. But unable to form a government.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It wasn't the federal vote. It was a referendum in '34 on consolidating Hitler's position after they had seized power the year before: 1934 German referendum - Wikipedia

For
38,394,848 - 89.93%

Against
4,300,370 - 10.07%

The Nazis had about 1/3 of the vote in the federal elections of '32, which made them the largest party. But unable to form a government.

Ok....so after he seized power.

When Stalin gave a speech he would literally have to instruct the audience to sit and cease applause so that he could begin speaking....everyone was afraid of being noticed as the first to stop clapping. When the current Kim of N Korea's father died....there was a ceaseless spectacle of hysterically weeping mobs crying at the ceremony.....none wanted to be noted for lack of grief.

So if we're speaking about the period after Hitler seized power....I'm sure it seems as if he had full support of his countrymen. After all, they had seen what nazis did to political opponents.

As you can see in letters from soldiers, memos between officers in confidence, and diaries....places where communication was trusted....there was far less than full support for the nazi party. His grip on the mind of the populace was far less than total early on....and dropped again in the later years of WW2....but by then his voice was the only one in public. It would be difficult to guess who was merely playing along to survive....and who was a true believer.

 

[FireDragon76]

DID is a controversial diagnosis made popular by movies and other media....whether or not it's "real" is debatable.

It's quite real. Years ago the media liked to hype up the idea that is was an urban legend, but it isn't. It's just rare.

I don't think this applies to Rader. He seems fully aware of who he is and what he's done...at all times.

My point isn't that Rader actually has DID, but to make an analogy. People can also lack insight into facets of their personality or behavior without actually fully dissociating.

The sensitivity to trauma which is associated with DID simply doesn't exist to psychopaths. He lives in a world where he doesn't always assess danger or risk the way most people do. He sleeps through tornados that others hide in basements to wait out.

According to Rader's daughter, he wasn't especially cold or emotionless. He could be abusive and angry, though, but most of the time he wasn't.

Maybe she herself lacks a certain degree of insight into her father.

There's a certain type of "vindictiveness" that some serial killers claim as motive to their actions. The idea that their victims somehow deserve their end. It's a projection sometimes....but I think it's typically a post hoc rationalization that allows them to ignore what they are.

Gacy did the same thing....the young men or boys he raped and killed were killed because, as Gacy puts it, they were homosexuals. In reality, Gacy was probably the homosexual who couldn't accept his feelings and hated himself on some level for it.

So was Gacy motivated by "radical evil", or violently repressed, latent homosexuality?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's quite real. Years ago the media liked to hype up the idea that is was an urban legend, but it isn't. It's just rare.

That's news to me....has DID been effectively proven by some metric and I wasn't aware of it?

My point isn't that Rader actually has DID, but to make an analogy. People can also lack insight into facets of their personality or behavior without actually fully dissociating.

Yeah and frankly, psychopathy has been about as wildly misunderstood as DID by movies and media. The idea of them lacking emotion or empathy isn't exactly correct either. That's an old perspective. They certainly lack a degree of expressive affect....and that can be misunderstood as emotionless. I think the common view is rather that they can more or less "sidestep" or block certain emotional responses at will. We all can to some degree.

According to Rader's daughter, he wasn't especially cold or emotionless. He could be abusive and angry, though, but most of the time he wasn't.

Which is part of the contradictory early descriptions of psychopathy. They would get described as both cold and emotionless and superficially charming....but have you ever known a cold and emotionless person you also considered charming?

Maybe she herself lacks a certain degree of insight into her father.

Don't we all? My father was a man who to me appeared to be able absorb and remain unaffected by levels of stress that caused other people to curse or cry or break down. He seemed superhuman to me.

So was Gacy motivated by "radical evil", or violently repressed, latent homosexuality?

If I had to guess? Yeah....strong catholic upbringing, childhood trauma, and the fact that there's a biological pathway of psychopathy probably combined in an unfortunate way in his case.

He had a wife, multiple community groups he was involved in and respected by, a small construction business I think....though he's most remembered for his part time clowning at birthday parties.


His MO was luring young desperate or troubled men who were looking for work to his home, often with liquor or beer, and once inebriated....offer to show them a "magic trick" involving handcuffs.

Once handcuffed.....they were raped and murdered, usually strangled, and then disposed of in the crawl space under his home or near a creek in his backyard. I don't remember all the details, but his rationale once caught was that he was murdering them for their sin of homosexuality and its abomination in the eyes of God.

It's certainly possible that some were homosexuals....but since they were young men looking for construction work and typically not local....my guess is that the vast majority were just trying to get a job by being friendly to the potential employer.

 

[Bradskii]

Ok....so after he seized power.

Yes. You'd expect a proportion of votes to be under duress. But read the quote by Kershaw I included. If there's anyone with comments on Nazi Germany and Hitler that you'd likely trust, it would be him. One of the world's leading experts on the German nation of that time. If he says 'Hitler had the backing, much of it fervently enthusiastic, of the great majority of the German people', then it's worth taking on board.