Believing VS Knowing

Vicomte13 · Sep 26, 2016

Ron Coates said:
As this happened, I understood that the verse they had read to me was true. I'm not sure how I knew it, but I did. I have never stopped believing it, even when I tried to. Since then I've had numerous experiences with God. And I've learned that many believers, if not most, don't have them.

Yes. It is just as you have said. You have actual knowledge. You don't believe, you know, because of a direct encounter with God. And once you have had one or more of those, you know that God IS. And then, no matter how much you'd like to get away from that - with all of its implications, and all of its limitations, you can't, because you know God is, because you saw.

Remember that Jesus always accompanied his teachings with miracles, and at the end he made the straightforward argument to those who had seen: believe in me based on my words, or if not, then believe in me because you saw the miracles.

The thing about miracles is that you can't transfer them. You know, but you cannot convey. In very large part because what is at stake is just what you said: you cannot escape from the truth you know, even if you want to - it would be dishonest. Think of Judas - he betrayed Jesus, but he could not escape from the knowledge of what he had done, so he threw the money away and hanged himself.

When God intervened in my life it was not in a Christian context at all. I came into Christianity because, in my quest to find external, third-party examinable miracles to prove to others, who had not seen, that God really is, I came upon a whole stack of miracles that left examinable, and miraculous (as in physically impossible) physical traces that can be studied by anybody. And I noticed that all of these miracles except one were within the confines of the Christian religion. Indeed, all but two are within the confines of Catholicism. And so I'm a Catholic - not because I like it, because I've proven that it's true, through examination of miracles - so I'm quite stuck. I can't disbelieve, because the same God that grabbed my face and did other things, left all those miracles like a blazed trail. I've studied them, I've seen, and I know. And once you know, you can no more cease to know than you can thrust your head into a pool and take a deep breath.

Thanks for your post. It's true that most have not seen, but they believe. And that is well. Still, it is good to see others, not many but some, who have seen. It is good to see and hear someone like you, because it means that I cannot take the final dishonest dodge and pretend to myself that I'm crazy. I know I'm not crazy. You know you're not crazy. God directly intervened visibly in our lives. He had his reasons. But because of it, we know, and we can't stop knowing. What we believe building on that knowledge may go off the rails, but that we are believing in something absolutely real gives us a groundedness in reality that is truly a blessing. The most "unreal" things are in fact real. And isn't that SPECTACULARLY GOOD?!

Vicomte13 · Sep 26, 2016

ScottA said:
Still others, myself included, are more accurate to say we "know"...for our experience is not one of being convinced by God, but one of being confronted by God. Such a confrontation leaves one with an experience that exceeds all human definitions of reality...and it becomes their new reality - God's reality. And there are millions of us with whom this is true.

Another one! It is so good to hear more voices! It is hard to bite the tongue all the time. We should go make a thread where we can tell what we saw, what happened, what we thought it meant, and what we think now it means.

I was hoping I would find this here - if it were anywhere it had to be here. And it is! So please, let's talk. It is good to not be crazy. So very good!

Received · Sep 26, 2016

believeume said:
If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

To believe is the infinitive form of the nominal "faith" (interestingly, the best translations don't have "belief" as a noun except maybe in one or two places, underscoring this fact), and both refer to trust or confidence, which requires your entire self, not just your intellect. The idea of belief as referring to representing ideas is really a post-enlightenment thing. Knowledge, on the other hand, is the ability to represent things as they are on an appropriate basis of thought and experience (Dallas Willard's definition). So you can see that knowledge is close to what many people have in mind when speaking of belief.

I can totally represent something cognitively without following through with it via trust or confidence. Therefore, knowledge and faith/belief are separate.

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

Raycrossley52 said:
Belief can change knowledge or knowing can not. For Knowing it is as it is. I believe in Jesus because I know Jesus is real A long time ago I did not really know Jesus christ Then when I was about 26 I died on an operating table I was dead for about eight minutes It was then in an NDE I met him. He sent me back here

Yes I've heard about that, I had a NDE while I was alive. But even though I had foreknowledge of many different God's that could of effected my experience, I saw something I had no foreknowledge of.

I fainted and was momentarily mentally transported to a brilliant white landscape. It felt like a real place, a place of pure love that I didn't want to leave.

Then I woke up feeling hands touching me, but that was people holding me from falling flat on my face.

There was no one there, in that endless place.

ScottA · Sep 26, 2016

Vicomte13 said:
Another one! It is so good to hear more voices! It is hard to bite the tongue all the time. We should go make a thread where we can tell what we saw, what happened, what we thought it meant, and what we think now it means.

I was hoping I would find this here - if it were anywhere it had to be here. And it is! So please, let's talk. It is good to not be crazy. So very good!

So...I guess it would not be wrong or considered hijacking the tread, to elaborate this relative point.

Indeed, I for one, "know" a greater reality than the one experience here in the world. At the end of myself, I cried out to God - and He answered...and immediately I was taken (out of body) above the earth, first insight of the earth and an uncountable multitude of people as far as I could see, then beyond and in the presence of God. I had questions, and the experience was my answer, so when I had received it - as quickly as I had gone, I returned again (in body).

Interestingly, before this happened...I did not "believe"...I just ran out of options, and acted on a hunch. Nonetheless, now I "know" there is a God.

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
Are you really suggesting that animals comprehend justice? That goes completely against everything we see in science and nature, where the strong survive.

Show me a single example of animals in the wild expeessing justice.

Not like they have a court of law, but they do have have sophisticated code of ethics they act on naturally.

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

aiki said:
Why does what I said about not interacting physically with Jesus concern you?

Yes, we are skin and bones, but we are also spirit-beings, creatures possessing an immortal soul. Why the reluctance to spell out what you're thinking? I'm willing to listen and discuss your thinking with you.

Selah.

Well the physical is composed of so much, and the spark of life is only minimalistic when compared to a physical universe.

The physical isn't just matter and there it ends, so much has to be layered underneath to make the physical real.

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

ScottA said:
It is a strange thing indeed.

To say, "I think, therefore I am", should be considered a broken or unfinished sentence. To finish the sentence, it should go something like this: "I think, therefore I am not sure, but I am working on it." Or: "I think, therefore - don't follow me, I'm lost."

Likewise, Christians who says they "believe", do not "know" there is a God at all, but are merely convinced there is - some mildly, and some even staking their life on it. But that all exists within a masterful plan of revelation that runs seamlessly down through all of history. Each person who becomes convinced has had a glimpse of God, and though they are incapable of saying without a shadow of a doubt that it is true, the evidence then begins to build until it is so overwhelming that "believing" is no longer the correct term. Yet, still not coming face to face with God, "belief" remains the term of use.

Still others, myself included, are more accurate to say we "know"...for our experience is not one of being convinced by God, but one of being confronted by God. Such a confrontation leaves one with an experience that exceeds all human definitions of reality...and it becomes their new reality - God's reality. And there are millions of us with whom this is true.

Well that never happened to me, it never became a belief that morphed into a real knowing reality. I always thought Jesus would make it real by observing myself mature into the real McCoy, but that never became possible.

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

Winken said:
Calm, confident assurance (faith), belief (I believe it), and trust (in Him) are not products of "stuff you make up in your head." They are an exclusively Spiritual event for those who confess Jesus as Savior. He then equips each one to follow Him as Lord.

Depends on the mind.

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

Ron Coates said:
In 1973, when I was 14, I was into sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. My dad was an avowed atheist. To me, God and Jesus meant Christmas and Easter. And nuns. This guy I had just met started nagging me to go to church with him. Of course I said no. But he kept at me. I finally made a deal with him that I would go once and he would stop bugging me. We got there and the first thing I noticed was that everything was covered in red velvet. Weird! Then a guy in a pin striped suit and white shoes picked up a mic and started talking. I had a hard time understanding him. Then we started singing. Or at least they did. I didn't know the songs or understood what they meant. The music was horrible. It was so foreign. Understand that at the time my favorite bands were Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. When it finally ended, I got ready to leave. My friend said "wait" and before I could respond, he ran up to the front and started talking to 2 guys with white shoes. After looking back at me a few times, they started back towards me. When they got to me, they started talking to me about God and Jesus. Then one of them read me John 3:16. Then a strange thing happened. It was like I saw a curtain right in front of me. A hand holding a sword came through the curtain and plunged the sword into my gut. As this happened, I understood that the verse they had read to me was true. I'm not sure how I knew it, but I did. I have never stopped believing it, even when I tried to. Since then I've had numerous experiences with God. And I've learned that many believers, if not most, don't have them. I want to say that I've never done anything to earn these, and that it's always been God's doing. And I don't understand why. Scripture says that those who believe without seeing are blessed. Anyway, I've written this in an attempt to get you to see how I've experienced faith and belief. It won't hurt and maybe it will help. I've come to see faith as a bridge to the reality of God. "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 E.S.V. Do this and if you keep at it and don't give up until you find Him, I believe you will find Him. Peace.

Hmm, how does a lost soul find God? You would think God would have to seek you out, since only he knows the labyrinth of the heart.

Vicomte13 · Sep 26, 2016

ScottA said:
So...I guess it would not be wrong or considered hijacking the tread, to elaborate this relative point.

Indeed, I for one, "know" a greater reality than the one experience here in the world. At the end of myself, I cried out to God - and He answered...and immediately I was taken (out of body) above the earth, first insight of the earth and an uncountable multitude of people as far as I could see, then beyond and in the presence of God. I had questions, and the experience was my answer, so when I had received it - as quickly as I had gone, I returned again (in body).

Interestingly, before this happened...I did not "believe"...I just ran out of options, and acted on a hunch. Nonetheless, now I "know" there is a God.

How wonderful! Yes, you have described those things well indeed. The experience being your answer, on your return what did you do next? Was this in the day, at night? To whom did you speak, and what did you tell her?

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

Received said:
To believe is the infinitive form of the nominal "faith" (interestingly, the best translations don't have "belief" as a noun except maybe in one or two places, underscoring this fact), and both refer to trust or confidence, which requires your entire self, not just your intellect. The idea of belief as referring to representing ideas is really a post-enlightenment thing. Knowledge, on the other hand, is the ability to represent things as they are on an appropriate basis of thought and experience (Dallas Willard's definition). So you can see that knowledge is close to what many people have in mind when speaking of belief.

I can totally represent something cognitively without following through with it via trust or confidence. Therefore, knowledge and faith/belief are separate.

Everyone uses faith, belief and knowing. But it's how they use it, and in what capacity it's used.

ScottA · Sep 26, 2016

believeume said:
I believed in Jesus for a very long time but it never came around to actually knowing anything (In a classical sense) Sustaining belief 24/7 was exhausting, and my faith never held up to scrutiny.

I can't walk back into belief blind again, it's dangerous for me and I get taken advantage of.

believeume said:
Well that never happened to me, it never became a belief that morphed into a real knowing reality. I always thought Jesus would make it real by observing myself mature into the real McCoy, but that never became possible.

A person is not blind to believe the handwriting on the wall of life. Your choices are to believe a host of assumptions from one source or another. But I caution you...as with anything in life, you will only get out of things what you put in, and you will only find what can be found where you are looking. In other words, if you look to the natural sciences, you will only find "natural" answers. Likewise, if you only look for peace or spiritual fulfillment within the bounds of the world - that will be the extent of it - it will only be worldly. On the contrary, we are told to seek God and His kingdom, to knock on that door...not just any door.

Also, God has allotted you your whole life for the process of coming to know Him - not part. So, then, if you cut it off, it is you and not Him, who is selling yourself short. Again, what you put in, that is what you will get in return.

ScottA · Sep 26, 2016

Vicomte13 said:
How wonderful! Yes, you have described those things well indeed. The experience being your answer, on your return what did you do next? Was this in the day, at night? To whom did you speak, and what did you tell her?

It all came as I was going to bed, the end of a long downward spiral and another day of desperation...so nighttime. When I came back into my body, I shot straight up, startled, and landed at the foot of my bed. I was left in bewilderment and repeated what I had just experienced over and over in my mind, trying to take it all in. Eventually, as the rhythm wore me down, I returned to laying down and then drifted off to sleep.

When I awoke, I was refreshed and at peace like I had never experienced before. I was in awe...and then everything in my life changed. I am sure I must have tried to tell my girlfriend at the time about it, but I never got anywhere, and before I knew what had happened, she broke up with me and was gone. I lost my job. I then went from not knowing what I would do...to realizing - like never before in life - I could do anything! So, having no other direction, I was drawn to an activity that had been a great pleasure to me - and I made plans for a career change. I temporarily moved in with my brother and his family, and in the room where they put me up, I found a bible. I had a couple weeks to burn, and when I picked it up and began reading, I couldn't put it down except to stop for food and sleep, and read it from cover to cover. As I did, it confirmed my experience, and my experience confirmed it - the Author, proved to be the same.

Ladyghosthunter · Sep 26, 2016

I believe and I know. I've seen angels in my dreams defeating demons and I've heard about friends having stage four pancreatic cancer to the point of months to live down to healed. I know Jesus as He has made me come this far in my life even through I've been through a lifetime of misery. Jesus carried me and has held my hand showing me to get the help I need for my PTSD and to trust in Him with everything. I have seen Him do miraculous things and I know He can do miraculous things. I don't know if that makes sense to you but it does to me.

aiki · Sep 26, 2016

believeume said:
Well the physical is composed of so much, and the spark of life is only minimalistic when compared to a physical universe.

What do you mean by "the spark of life" exactly? How do you know how complex it is?

believeume said:
The physical isn't just matter and there it ends, so much has to be layered underneath to make the physical real.

This is a bit confusing. What do you think is layered beneath the physical to make it real?

Selah.

RDKirk · Sep 26, 2016

believeume said:
Not like they have a court of law, but they do have have sophisticated code of ethics they act on naturally.

However, I would consider "justice" as a code of behavior that is a departure from the actions nature would dictate.

Widlast · Sep 26, 2016

believeume said:
If Jesus is real, why do Christian's say they believe in him. Shouldn't they say I know him?

How can one believe something they know?

That's fairly straightforward, because most people who call themselves Christian do not "know" Him. They believe He is, they like the idea of who He is, they're very fond of the book with the new parts written largely about Him, but they do not actually know Him. If they did, they would behave very differently than they do.

That is also exactly why there is such a thing as "ex-Christians". If a person actually had known God, they would not be able to wake up one fine morning and doubt that they had met Him.

believeume · Sep 26, 2016

ScottA said:
A person is not blind to believe the handwriting on the wall of life. Your choices are to believe a host of assumptions from one source or another. But I caution you...as with anything in life, you will only get out of things what you put in, and you will only find what can be found where you are looking. In other words, if you look to the natural sciences, you will only find "natural" answers. Likewise, if you only look for peace or spiritual fulfillment within the bounds of the world - that will be the extent of it - it will only be worldly. On the contrary, we are told to seek God and His kingdom, to knock on that door...not just any door.

Also, God has allotted you your whole life for the process of coming to know Him - not part. So, then, if you cut it off, it is you and not Him, who is selling yourself short. Again, what you put in, that is what you will get in return.

Of course it's me, duh, you can't blame an infallible deity in the minds of believers.

CodyFaith · Sep 26, 2016

Sight sometimes takes faith too.

For example, Paul saw a blinding light on the road to Damascus that told him he was Jesus. You would think that would be enough for Paul to know the rest of his life that Jesus is God and the Messiah.

Yet, later we read, that Paul walks by faith. Even after having all those direct experiences, times where he knew Christ existed, he still needed faith. The Israelites saw great miracles like the Red Sea being parted, were delivered from slavery, etc. But the human mind can create all sorts of different things that make one doubt. Humans are stubborn, lack great faith, and doubters.

So you actually need to have faith in the experiences you've had that bring you knowledge. Sometimes it's more faith than sight, sometimes it's more sight but with faith. Each has their own way of approaching it.

But many of us can say confidently we know of Christ. Yet, we will also say we believe in Christ.

Believing VS Knowing

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