Believers in exile

[manimal2878]

That's swell and all, but those things don't make one a Christian. That may be true, hence the term believer in exile.

Jesus was very clear that men will do things in the name of following Him, but when the rubber meets the road, they don't belong to Him.



But the religion of Christianity is centered around the teachings and claims of Jesus.

That's right the Religion of Christianity is centered arounfd the CLAIMS, The religion that we have today is not the same that Jesus had, remember he was not a christian, much of the religion was developed in 350 by augustine of hippo and is frequently called pauline christianity, remember even in jesus time people already argued over what his life and death meant, the jewish reform xtians and the gnostic xtians. the religion as you see it is only one surviving interpretation.

You can't follow Jesus and not follow Jesus at the same time.

You can follow jesus and not follow the religion of xtianity as it now stands, the two ideas are not mutually bound.

 

[MikeMcK]

You can follow jesus and not follow the religion of xtianity as it now stands, the two ideas are not mutually bound.

Again, it's illogical to follow Jesus and not follow Jesus at the same time.

Can't be done.

 

[AnarKiss]

I think a Christian (person who believes Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for our sins and then defeat death and rose fro the grave 3 days later. By following the example of Christ's life and teachings.) should stand up for what they believe. And as lon gas they rely on the Bible for what they believe they are in grt standin month

You made some great comments up to this point ITBM. But is this really your definition of a Christian? And are beliefs really that important? Surely living a life of love and integrity is more important than believing the right things.

 

[AnarKiss]

Manimal,

Have you read the gospels yet? AFter reading Spong, maybe you should get another opinion as well. Many do not consider Spong a Christian. Does he profess to be a Christian? I have never read anything by him, but have heard him speak, and I cannot recall that he called himself anything other than a bishop. I don't recall him professing faith in Christ.

It seems to me that you would want to learn of GOd from people that say we know Him.

You asked about Spong. Yes, he regards himself as a Christian. Furthermore he sees his life calling (as a minister) to protect and enhance the church.

Hope this is helpful

 

[AnarKiss]

You just broke the rules for this forum. The Jesus you are selling isn't the one of the Bible, but the one you desire in the flesh.
John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Thanks for your comments Rafael. The Jesus I speak of is the Jesus that inspired remarkable change and inspiration to the biblical writers.

John 14:6 is so often quoted to claim exclusivity for the Christian faith. But I am certainly not alone in believing this is a misreading of the English translation. The Greek is much more difficult to claim exclusivity from.

I will try to explain in brief. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". The Greek does not use the same English grammar for 'the' - there is no exclusivity intended here at all.

"Noone comes to the Father except through me". A door is the way into a house - there may be many doors, but they are all still doors. Jesus is the Door into God. Anyone who comes to God (regardless of faith tradition) comes through the Door (whether they recognise it or not).

The Bible records many non-JudeoChristian God-followers, giving them a very legitimate place in God's Kingdom. Our message should be one of love and unity, not attempting to get others to conform to our beliefs.

This is supported by the other quotes you attached - 1 John 3 and ?? - these show that Jesus is more than a man. Jesus is an ideal and an inspiration which permeates every aspect of our lives.

As for selling Jesus - I couldn't even if I wanted to. Jesus is free for the taking.

 

[manimal2878]

Again, it's illogical to follow Jesus and not follow Jesus at the same time.

Can't be done.

Surely you can see that the religion of xtianity and the teachings of Jesus may not be the same can't you?

What you are saying is the same as if I said you can't not follow the teachings of catholism and follow the teachings of Jesus, (which some people do claim). Are you not a follower of jesus if you are not a catholic? How can you claim to be when when the Catholics clearly say that you are not?

Changing the way we think of religion and the rules needed to come to Jesus change constantly. Surely you have heard of the Protestant Reformation?

 

[manimal2878]

John 14:6 is so often quoted to claim exclusivity for the Christian faith. But I am certainly not alone in believing this is a misreading of the English translation. The Greek is much more difficult to claim exclusivity from.

I will try to explain in brief. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". The Greek does not use the same English grammar for 'the' - there is no exclusivity intended here at all.

"Noone comes to the Father except through me". A door is the way into a house - there may be many doors, but they are all still doors. Jesus is the Door into God. Anyone who comes to God (regardless of faith tradition) comes through the Door (whether they recognise it or not).

.

Thank god, I am not the only one with college level reading comprehension.

 

[MikeMcK]

Surely you can see that the religion of [Christianity] and the teachings of Jesus may not be the same can't you?

No, I don't.

Christianity is based on the claims and teachings of Christ.

What you are saying is the same as if I said you can't not follow the teachings of catholism and follow the teachings of Jesus, (which some people do claim). Are you not a follower of jesus if you are not a catholic? How can you claim to be when when the Catholics clearly say that you are not?

Catholicism may be a branch of Christianity (although, based on conversations with Catholics here, I'm becoming less and less convinced of that), but it is not Christianity.

Nor do baptists comprise the whole of Christianity.

Changing the way we think of religion and the rules needed to come to Jesus change constantly. Surely you have heard of the protestant reformation?

Yes, I'm familiar with it.

What part of the Protestant Reformation is out of line with scripture?

 

[MikeMcK]

Thank god, I am not the only one with college level reading comprehension.

Right. That's why you didn't know that "Protestant Reformation" is a proper noun.

 

[manimal2878]

Right. That's why you didn't know that "Protestant Reformation" is a proper noun.

Touche!

 

[manimal2878]

No, I don't.

Christianity is based on the claims and teachings of Christ.

I keep telling you that you are right. If you do not understand that other claims can be made about those teachings other than the ones you believe based on the same experiance of Jesus then you will never understand.



Catholicism may be a branch of Christianity (although, based on conversations with Catholics here, I'm becoming less and less convinced of that), but it is not Christianity.

Are you saying Catholics are not Christians? I think they would beg to differ.

Nor do baptists comprise the whole of Christianity.

Correct



Yes, I'm familiar with it.

What part of the Protestant Reformation is out of line with scripture?

According to the teachings and understanding of scripture at the time? All of it.

Even today it seems most Protestants wish they could somehow remove the book of James. I could make a very honest arguement that "through faith alone" violates many things taught in James.

 

[MikeMcK]

Even today it seems most Protestants wish they could somehow remove the book of James. I could make a very honest arguement that "through faith alone" violates many things taught in James.

Funny, I've been a protestant (that is, as the word is commonly used today) for nearly twenty years and I've never heard anyone say anything bad about the book of James.

In fact, nearly every preacher I can think of at the moment has preached from it at one time or another.

Naturally, I would be very curious to see how James militates against sola fide.

 

[MikeMcK]

Are you saying Catholics are not Christians? I think they would beg to differ.

I didn't say they were or weren't. I said that based on recent conversations with Catholics here on CF, I'm finding it harder and harder to reconcile Cathoic teachings with Christianity.

 

[manimal2878]

I didn't say they were or weren't. I said that based on recent conversations with Catholics here on CF, I'm finding it harder and harder to reconcile Cathoic teachings with Christianity.

Ah okay, well I and others are finding it harder to reconcile the life of Jesus with Christianity, does that make sense to you?

 

[MikeMcK]

Ah okay, well I and others are finding it harder to reconcile the life of Jesus with Christianity, does that make sense to you?

Sure. That makes perfect sense.

Rather than follow Christ, you've decided to recreate Him in your own image.

 

[manimal2878]

Sure. That makes perfect sense.

Rather than follow Christ, you've decided to recreate Him in your own image.

You are apperantly not very perceptive.

I am not recreating anything. I am looking at his life and what he taught and what I see is that it is the religion based on him that has recreated his life in order to make it fit into their theistic images of God, specifically the Jewish system, that the people who wrote the bible could understand because they were primitive and ignorant and that for some reason people still cling to these ideas despite our knowledge to the contrary.

You don't have to call me a Christian, I don't care what you think, If I choose to follow what I think is the importance of Jesus what does it matter to you. Why does it bother to you so much that people can come to a relationship and way of thinking of the Christ that is different than yours? Are you afraid that if there are different or new views that your view is wrong?

Like I told you though, I am just trying to explain a different point of view. It seems you don't want to believe this point of view is real or valid, that is your choice.

 

[manimal2878]

Funny, I've been a protestant (that is, as the word is commonly used today) for nearly twenty years and I've never heard anyone say anything bad about the book of James.

Don't read much do you? Luther did not translate the book of James into German because he didn't like what it said.

In fact, nearly every preacher I can think of at the moment has preached from it at one time or another.

Yeah I have heard them too, usually mirepresenting and twisting what it says. I heard one where he says "oh you don't have to do good things that's just if you want others to be able to tell you are a christian.?" THats not what james says.

Naturally, I would be very curious to see how James militates against sola fide.

Becuase he says that faiths without works is not faith for even the devils have belief in god. Don't remember the verse number.

 

[manimal2878]

well...? DId look at james again?

 

[MikeMcK]

You are apperantly not very perceptive.

What is it with you guys and the personal insults?

That's usually the first indication that you've lost the argument.

 

[manimal2878]

What is it with you guys and the personal insults?

That's usually the first indication that you've lost the argument.

I am not personally insulting you I am saying you are not to perceptive to the point I am trying to make. No insult meant.

I apologize if you took it that way.

However don't use my mistake of language to avoid our discussion, I would like to continue our conversation.

Were you able to look at James and see how it contradicts many protrastent ideas?