Believers in exile

[manimal2878]

What do you guys think of believer in exile?

Is this term even widely acknowledged yet?

 

[ITBM]

What do you guys think of believer in exile?
Is this term even widely acknowledged yet?

I'm not sure I know what you mean by the term.

The only thin I can think of is a believer who was "excommunicated" or "anathema" (suspend membership in the church). Although both Old & New Testaments provided reasons for doing this, the parable of the "Prodigal Son" who returns is greeted with open arms by the father. The same should be true of a wayward believer.

Are you asking about the state of that persons "eternal salvation" before they acknowledge the arrogance of their previous decision (ie: the Prodigal Son)? In that case, I think only God could say. Only He knows the persons heart.

But, I think that with so many denominational & theological options today then surely someone who truly deseired to follow God would seek out a church that shared their own beliefs about living out the Christian faith.

 

[manimal2878]

A believer in exile, is a person who basically finds the traditional way of thinking and being a christian as dead or dying in our modern world.

They can no longer honestly recite the creeds or believe in the doctrines of their faith, yet still believe that christ is a powerful force in their lives.

They are believers but are in exile because they have found the language, theology of their beliefs, and the rituals have become dishonest.

 

[ITBM]

A believer in exile, is a person who basically finds the traditional way of thinking and being a christian as dead or dying in our modern world.

They can no longer honestly recite the creeds or believe in the doctrines of their faith, yet still believe that christ is a powerful force in their lives.

They are believers but are in exile because they have found the language, theology of their beliefs, and the rituals have become dishonest.

Well I think that traditional "Biblically-based" thinking is far from dead or dying. I am certain that if approached with a critical yet open mind that the Bible will surprise many people. However, despite modern societies "policy of acceptance (political correctness) it is often very close minded and biased when it comes the Bible.

On the flip side, I think it's ludacris for people to believe all the same things, to worship the same way, to say the same things just because "that's the way it's always been done."

Saying and doing actions carry no meaning or importance with Go unless there is the right motivation (love) is behind it. (1 Corinthians 13)

I think a Christian (person who believes Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for our sins and then defeat death and rose fro the grave 3 days later. By following the example of Christ's life and teachings.) should stand up for what they believe. And as lon gas they rely on the Bible for what they believe they are in grt standin month

 

[Rafael]

That would be exile by their imagination and own choice. The Bible is full of stories about people who did not want to give God what He asked for. They gave Him what they wanted to give Him, instead which is, in truth, a sacrifice to self - not to God. Cain did this and then became jealous of his brother Abel for giving the sacrifice God asked of him.
There are no exiles, as the heavens above are God's cathedral and we are the temple of His Holy spirit. Whereever two or three are gathered in His name, He is with them. So I'm not sure exactly sure what other thing you would mix the doctrines of the Bible with, but the Bible would say they are doctrines of demons, and that in the last days people would not endure sound doctrine, but run to preachers and people who would give them the things they lusted for and make a relationship with God just a religion and another possession instead of a truth about how to live in victory over sin and death. The old message of "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" probably isn't popular for the same reason it wasn't back then. People love their sins and their own ways more than they love God and HIs ways. The Bible pulls no punches about this, but identifies it so we can be aware and warned of how our old dead natures wnat to rule over our lives instead of letting the Spirit of God rule within us. When we follow the spirit, we have the benefits of the spirit which are life. When we follow the flesh, we die.

Romans 8:12 So, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation whatsoever to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
13 For if you keep on following it, you will perish. But if through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from it and its evil deeds, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Galatians 5:16 So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves.
17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself,
20 for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons.

 

[manimal2878]

Well I think that traditional "Biblically-based" thinking is far from dead or dying. I am certain that if approached with a critical yet open mind that the Bible will surprise many people. However, despite modern societies "policy of acceptance (political correctness) it is often very close minded and biased when it comes the Bible.

On the flip side, I think it's ludacris for people to believe all the same things, to worship the same way, to say the same things just because "that's the way it's always been done."

Saying and doing actions carry no meaning or importance with Go unless there is the right motivation (love) is behind it. (1 Corinthians 13)

I think a Christian (person who believes Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for our sins and then defeat death and rose fro the grave 3 days later. By following the example of Christ's life and teachings.) should stand up for what they believe. And as lon gas they rely on the Bible for what they believe they are in grt standin month

See you would not consider these people as Christians then, you would place them in exile, they can no longer believe that the purpose of the life of Jesus was his death on the cross and for him to act as the sacrificial lamb.

Speaking of being surprised by the bible, I was surprised to learn the idea of the trinity is nowhere to be found in there.

I was also surprised to learn that nowhere in the bible does it say we must believe in Jesus or go to hell, in fact hell is not in the bible either.

I was very, very surprised.

 

[manimal2878]

That would be exile by their imagination and own choice. The Bible is full of stories about people who did not want to give God what He asked for. They gave Him what they wanted to give Him, instead which is, in truth, a sacrifice to self - not to God. Cain did this and then became jealous of his brother Abel for giving the sacrifice God asked of him.
There are no exiles, as the heavens above are God's cathedral and we are the temple of His Holy spirit. Whereever two or three are gathered in His name, He is with them. So I'm not sure exactly sure what other thing you would mix the doctrines of the Bible with, but the Bible would say they are doctrines of demons, and that in the last days people would not endure sound doctrine, but run to preachers and people who would give them the things they lusted for and make a relationship with God just a religion and another possession instead of a truth about how to live in victory over sin and death. The old message of "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" probably isn't popular for the same reason it wasn't back then. People love their sins and their own ways more than they love God and HIs ways. The Bible pulls no punches about this, but identifies it so we can be aware and warned of how our old dead natures wnat to rule over our lives instead of letting the Spirit of God rule within us. When we follow the spirit, we have the benefits of the spirit which are life. When we follow the flesh, we die.

Romans 8:12 So, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation whatsoever to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
13 For if you keep on following it, you will perish. But if through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from it and its evil deeds, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Galatians 5:16 So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves.
17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself,
20 for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons.

It would be exile because things like you just said are parts of dead doctrines, to them. They would consider much of what you said superstitions of a primitive and ancient culture interpretting god in a way they could understand.

 

[JJB]

manimal, are you a "believer in exile"? Do these believers in exile consider Jesus the Christ? In other words, who do they say Jesus is?

 

[Rafael]

It would be exile because things like you just said are parts of dead doctrines, to them. They would consider much of what you said superstitions of a primitive and ancient culture interpretting god in a way they could understand.

I'm curious, what would you call "alive" doctrine if obeying God's will revealed in the Bible by Jesus is dead? It's kind of difficult to answer when you give no specific belief of your own or complaint about a specific doctrine of Christianity. Is it only what we want or does God have anything to say?

What would be "primitive" about this statement or does it accurately describe human behavior?

Galatians 5:19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure,
20 idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group,
21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.
25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.

 

[manimal2878]

manimal, are you a "believer in exile"? Do these believers in exile consider Jesus the Christ? In other words, who do they say Jesus is?

No I am not a believer in exile.
I am not a believer, but I have been reading a lot, and HAve come across this book, by Spong, Why chrisitianity must change or die: a bishop speaks to believers in exile.

I have'nt finished the book yet, but I find it is a way I can aproach God that seems more honest to me than traditional Christianity. I am still on the fence though.

 

[manimal2878]

I'm curious, what would you call "alive" doctrine if obeying God's will revealed in the Bible by Jesus is dead? It's kind of difficult to answer when you give no specific belief of your own or complaint about a specific doctrine of Christianity. Is it only what we want or does God have anything to say?

What would be "primitive" about this statement or does it accurately describe human behavior?

Galatians 5:19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure,
20 idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group,
21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.
25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.

Well, mind you I am agnostic, but I can try to answer from the perspective of the believer in exile. THey would see that the will revealed by God through the bible was written in a form that can most accurately be interpretted by understanding midrash and the culture and language available to the bible writers at the time. IN other words those words were wrtten entirely in a way that the cultures of that time could understand it and become aquinted with the holy spirit.

Since our knowledge of history, science, philosophy, psychology is all vastly more intimate with what it means to be human our language must grow and in order for us to be fully part of the holy spirit we must invent a new language.

The Idea of atonement is shed as it is seen as an understanding based on the necissity of blood sacrifice. Jesus is still saught because he is believed to be the point at which God and humanity our fully realized.

Hope I did a good job trying to explain, remember I am just trying to explain it, kind of playing devils advocate, it is not my belief, not yet anyway, but I do find it more rational and approachable.

Just look for you guys opinions or if you have heard asnything like this before.

 

[JJB]

Manimal,

Have you read the gospels yet? AFter reading Spong, maybe you should get another opinion as well. Many do not consider Spong a Christian. Does he profess to be a Christian? I have never read anything by him, but have heard him speak, and I cannot recall that he called himself anything other than a bishop. I don't recall him professing faith in Christ.

It seems to me that you would want to learn of GOd from people that say we know Him.

 

[manimal2878]

Manimal,

Have you read the gospels yet? AFter reading Spong, maybe you should get another opinion as well. Many do not consider Spong a Christian. Does he profess to be a Christian? I have never read anything by him, but have heard him speak, and I cannot recall that he called himself anything other than a bishop. I don't recall him professing faith in Christ.

It seems to me that you would want to learn of GOd from people that say we know Him.

I have read the gospels numerous times.

The people that say they know him might not, The people that say they know him might be wrong.

I don't know whether Spong would call himself a christian still, I believe he does as he finds his relationship with christ to still be central, but again, since many would no longer call his view christian, he considers himself a believer in exile

I have goton many other opinions rewad almost everything by CS LEWIS and Some Lee Strobel.

I find CS Lewis honest and sincere, but what he says does not reach me in a way to make me believe. Strobel I find to be what some call lying for god.

 

[Rafael]

Well, mind you I am agnostic, but I can try to answer from the perspective of the believer in exile. THey would see that the will revealed by God through the bible was written in a form that can most accurately be interpretted by understanding midrash and the culture and language available to the bible writers at the time. IN other words those words were wrtten entirely in a way that the cultures of that time could understand it and become aquinted with the holy spirit.

Since our knowledge of history, science, philosophy, psychology is all vastly more intimate with what it means to be human our language must grow and in order for us to be fully part of the holy spirit we must invent a new language.

The Idea of atonement is shed as it is seen as an understanding based on the necissity of blood sacrifice. Jesus is still saught because he is believed to be the point at which God and humanity our fully realized.

Hope I did a good job trying to explain, remember I am just trying to explain it, kind of playing devils advocate, it is not my belief, not yet anyway, but I do find it more rational and approachable.

Just look for you guys opinions or if you have heard asnything like this before.

The life is still in the blood, and it is the blood of Adam that has given each and every one of us the nature to sin and die. I used to tout psycology, too, but it doesn't work against that which is innate. It was only through the blood of the Holy Spirit that Jesus escaped that nature by being born of a virgin and not having that nature to sin or He would not have been the sinless sacrifce offered up as perfect justice before God as the atonement for the sins of mankind.
When I was agnositc and just about your age, some fellows from a nearby Church came to witness to me. I liked to gab and invited them in. I told them essentially the same story about how we all would be fine if we would just be raised and taught better. The oldest fellow of the group pointed out to me how even an infant child shows rage and greedy selfishness, clutching at toys, without ever having to be taught, and I had to stop and think because it is true. We are born into sin and death by one man, Adam, and we have new life agin through one man, Jesus. From that time on, I have watched children closely, remembering what he had taught me. What he said was true, and our lives have intensely important meaning, with God watching over His creation very closely to see how those who love Him overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the words of their testimonies. Of course, at the time, I thought I knew everything, but had never even read the Bible. The first time I did made all the difference.

Ro 5:17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

 

[manimal2878]

The life is still in the blood, and it is the blood of Adam that has given each and every one of us the nature to sin and die. I used to tout psycology, too, but it doesn't work against that which is innate. It was only through the blood of the Holy Spirit that Jesus escaped that nature by being born of a virgin and not having that nature to sin or He would not have been the sinless sacrifce offered up as perfect justice before God as the atonement for the sins of mankind.
When I was agnositc and just about your age, some fellows from a nearby Church came to witness to me. I liked to gab and invited them in. I told them essentially the same story about how we all would be fine if we would just be raised and taught better. The oldest fellow of the group pointed out to me how even an infant child shows rage and greedy selfishness, clutching at toys, without ever having to be taught, and I had to stop and think because it is true. We are born into sin and death by one man, Adam, and we have new life agin through one man, Jesus. From that time on, I have watched children closely, remembering what he had taught me. What he said was true, and our lives have intensely important meaning, with God watching over His creation very closely to see how those who love Him overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the words of their testimonies. Of course, at the time, I thought I knew everything, but had never even read the Bible. The first time I did made all the difference.

Ro 5:17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

Well the first time I did did not make any differance to me except to further cystalize that I cannot have faith in a god as he is presented in the bible.

If anything the bible pushed me further away, except for the gospels, but then i still have to deal with the rest of it.

 

[BarbB]

...
Speaking of being surprised by the bible, I was surprised to learn the idea of the trinity is nowhere to be found in there..

Oh, but it is. God and the Spirit of God.

GE 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And usually the "Angel of God" is referring to Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus in the NT says he is the Son of God. Therefore you end up with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Voila!

I was also surprised to learn that nowhere in the bible does it say we must believe in Jesus or go to hell, in fact hell is not in the bible either.

I was very, very surprised.

But Jesus says the only way to the Father is through him. Without him your name is not in the book of life. Without being in the book of life, you are destined for hell.

Spong I don't think can be called a Christian any longer. Try reading someone who is sweetly Christian, like Charles Stanley. He's written many books. Something might get your attention. He certainly changed my mind toward Christians. His website is www.intouch.org .

 

[manimal2878]

Oh, but it is. God and the Spirit of God.

And usually the "Angel of God" is referring to Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus in the NT says he is the Son of God. Therefore you end up with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Voila!

Whatever. Nice try. I disagree with your interpretation of this angel being god. PLus that would make it a four part godhead even if you were right.



But Jesus says the only way to the Father is through him. Without him your name is not in the book of life. Without being in the book of life, you are destined for hell.

Except for all the parts where he doesn't. THe book of life quote coming from revelations specifically states that I will be judged by my works, are you sure you have read all of the bible and not just been proof texting?

Spong I don't think can be called a Christian any longer. Try reading someone who is sweetly Christian, like Charles Stanley. He's written many books. Something might get your attention. He certainly changed my mind toward Christians. His website is www.intouch.org .

I'll have a look at that website, thanks.

 

[Rafael]

Well the first time I did did not make any differance to me except to further cystalize that I cannot have faith in a god as he is presented in the bible.

If anything the bible pushed me further away, except for the gospels, but then i still have to deal with the rest of it.

You say you have read the Bible and understand it, but still cannot tell us which thing has pushed you away from it. Is it the idea that we are responsible for love to the whole world or what? If people all walked in this life like Jesus did, there would be no suffering from greed and the idolatry we have today for power. Jesus submitted Himself to us even though He was God in the flesh, and told us to follow in His manner.
I find it curious that all this wisdom has somehow escaped you yet you ask questions only to voice your complaint?? It looks like this would tell you something about yourself - that you are choosing darkness over the light and still wanting to justify yourself by blaming God as wrong or not valid. We all have done this until we deny our selfish egotistical fallen self, but that isn't the end of it. It goes on with each day - denying self and walking according to the true Spirit of love instead of self. Voicing complaint shows that you are like the rest of us before finally giving over to His help in humility. Sometimes it takes a long time for life to humble us as we approach death and experience the loss and suffering that has come into this world because of it, but it comes, and hopefully the day comes when we bow our knee to God and ask for His help. I hope you can do that someday, and forget all this striving with your Maker. The Bible is full of men who strived with God and found grace. Even "Israel" means to strive with God, as Jacob wrestled with the angel for a blessing. We cannot help ourselves, and God knows that and has given us grace to grow in. I sure hope you can find that grace, too, and find thankfulness towards Him for life and can finally see the light He has brought into the world. It is there, but it cannot be found from a proud heart, as God resists the proud. My own pride has been great, and I can testify that it is a miracle that I could ever have been brought around to faith in God. It is a miracle that continues, as I see that it will take even more faith to live in the world that is shaping up for the future.

 

[hamishgraham]

What do you guys think of believer in exile?

Is this term even widely acknowledged yet?

Yay, another Exile. You've made my day.

There is another way, it's an exciting road to take. Does get lonely, so always great to bump into another kindred spirit.

God of love, life and being - se're on our way.

 

[hamishgraham]

But Jesus says the only way to the Father is through him. Without him your name is not in the book of life. Without being in the book of life, you are destined for hell.

Jesus says he is Way - not the only way, you're twisting the text. As for the additions regarding the book of life and destined for hell. This is the precise literalist rubbish that pushes people away from traditional Western Christianity.

Western Christianity has made a farce of God's love, unity and grace. Turning into a heaven or hell judgement game with some Superhuman Ogre lording over us all. This is not what Christianity should be about.