Believers in exile

[hamishgraham]

Spong I don't think can be called a Christian any longer. Try reading someone who is sweetly Christian, like Charles Stanley. He's written many books. Something might get your attention. He certainly changed my mind toward Christians. His website is www.intouch.org .

Sorry if I was a bit harsh on the last post.

I dunno if Jesus was a 'sweet Christian'. In fact, I seem to remember him being an outcast of the traditional religious institutions. I don't see why it would be any different today.

Your judgement on Spong is unwarranted - indeed, I think God could be left to define who is a Christian. As far as a real wrestle with truth, Spong is great. His theology can be rightly critiqued, but he is certainly not on his own. Indeed, most contemporarly Bible scholars are much closer to Spong's ideas and beliefs than traditional Christianity as captured in the doctrines and creeds. If only this insight could be recognised and embraced by the wider church.

 

[Rafael]

Jesus says he is Way - not the only way, you're twisting the text. As for the additions regarding the book of life and destined for hell. This is the precise literalist rubbish that pushes people away from traditional Western Christianity.

Western Christianity has made a farce of God's love, unity and grace. Turning into a heaven or hell judgement game with some Superhuman Ogre lording over us all. This is not what Christianity should be about.

You just broke the rules for this forum. The Jesus you are selling isn't the one of the Bible, but the one you desire in the flesh. If you can make the Bible say what you want, then you can keep your sins and worship a false god that does not exist other than in the imagination.
We live in grace at this time, but the Bible is full of sober warnings from begining to end for those that would live only after the flesh and not by the Spirit. Love is so much more than a mushy feeling. It takes work and sacrifice from us all. True, humans make a pretty lousy example of the work Jesus did, but pointing that out only takes the finger off ourselves and the responsibility we all have to do in loving our neighbor as ourselves. That basic love of self that puts clothes on and nourishes the body has seemed to escape us in meaning, as thousands starve to death each night in this world, but Jesus didn't forget to tell us that love is action and not feelings or words.
One thing is for sure, ignoring His words of wisdom and warning or changing them to suit our own desires doesn't help people see the truth of the deadliness of sin and death without the love of God and His sacrifice in Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

1Ti 2:5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

MATT. 25:31-45 When the Son of Man comes in his glory....He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.....Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil & his angels. For I was hungry & YOU gave ME nothing to eat, I was thirsty & YOU gave ME nothing to drink, I was a stranger & YOU did not invite ME in, I needed clothes and YOU did not clothe ME, I was sick and in prison, and YOU did not look after ME.". "Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

Ro 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[manimal2878]

You say you have read the Bible and understand it, but still cannot tell us which thing has pushed you away from it. Is it the idea that we are responsible for love to the whole world or what? If people all walked in this life like Jesus did, there would be no suffering from greed and the idolatry we have today for power. Jesus submitted Himself to us even though He was God in the flesh, and told us to follow in His manner.

Yes I have read the bible and understand it. I do not understand the ideas that seem to read into it. Atonement, the trinity, hell, etc.

Yes I agree if we lived as Jesus lived the world would be better, I agree with that %100. I could even agree that he may have been an embodiement of the spirit of god in the flesh, but not that he was God and not that we must believe in his death as a sacrifice in order to get our reward in heaven and avoid hell.

Everything else seems to imply that you have some special knowledge or gift to read that I don't. That your belief is some how specailly imparted, if that is so then how is it my fault I do not understand as you do?

 

[manimal2878]

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

That sentence only says that nobody gets to god without going through Jesus first, it does not say that any specific belief is asked or required. Just like I get to the airplane through the terminal. I don't have to believe anything about the terminal.
1Ti 2:5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.
Again same thing as above. I can be reconciled without having to do anything if somebody is mediating on my behalf. In fact if they mediate for me I really don't even have to know they exist if.
I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

This also implies nothing about us having faith, but strictly read it says we ought to live as Jesus did and if we do we are living the truth of Jesus.

MATT. 25:31-45 When the Son of Man comes in his glory....He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.....Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil & his angels. For I was hungry & YOU gave ME nothing to eat, I was thirsty & YOU gave ME nothing to drink, I was a stranger & YOU did not invite ME in, I needed clothes and YOU did not clothe ME, I was sick and in prison, and YOU did not look after ME.". "Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

This also says the same thing as above, nothing about what I have to believe merely that those who do not do good works will go into the same fire as the devils, which may not be hell, but could be a purifying fire, still not pleasant but not necasarrily the traditional hell. The word eternal is also not the same as the original greek meaning which more implied an age of limited time.
Also it is interesting Matt called him the son of man and not god, why do you think that is?

Ro 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Again this implies nothing about what faith beliefs I should have merely a known fact my flesh will die but if I have a spirit life as well as physical it will live after my body.

 

[Rafael]

Yes I have read the bible and understand it. I do not understand the ideas that seem to read into it. Atonement, the trinity, hell, etc.

Yes I agree if we lived as Jesus lived the world would be better, I agree with that %100. I could even agree that he may have been an embodiement of the spirit of god in the flesh, but not that he was God and not that we must believe in his death as a sacrifice in order to get our reward in heaven and avoid hell.

Everything else seems to imply that you have some special knowledge or gift to read that I don't. That your belief is some how specailly imparted, if that is so then how is it my fault I do not understand as you do?

Atonement is clearly and plainly represented by the covenant God made with Abraham and the promises that followed because of His faith. When a man makes payment for another man's guilt, then that is an uncommon act of love and selflessness. Trinity, hell, things we do not see - just add them to the list, as all things are made up of that which is unseen. The fact that God is able to manifest Himself in more than one dimension should be no surprise, yet as men, we so often are upset at not understanding because it tweaks our pride. There is nothing to be proud about in just being born to die, but that is what so many hold to. The Bible assigns tremendous worth and purpose to mankind and if one really digs and follows the Bible along with history, they can even see the nations that God promised would rise up to be great that followed after the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is true that man has added lots of tradition and "religion" to the story and record God has left us of His covenant with mankind through Abraham, but that doesn't mean the truth is hidden and unattainable. It has taken many years for revelation to come to me, and not because I am any better than the next man. I only offer up the truth as I have so painfully learned it with the time given me so that the true seeker can have a leg up in this world by following and obeying the words of God, as they carry with them blessings for life. They make a life for us that is worth living. Many won't see that, and that is okay. I don't expect anything more than the rest of Jesus disciples, as they were all hated and finally persecuted, accused falsely, and put to death. Am I better than my master? I think not.
Don't say that you can't believe in God, as I know how skeptical I was as an agnostic. When you proclaim such, you do so ignorantly, as you cannot see the future any better than me. If you continue to seek with a humble heart, I am confident you will find God and know Him, but He resists us when we are proud and make rash statements that are unfounded and not completely worked out in time. I had to be broken in my life before I could be humble enough to receive, but that doesn't mean others have to be like me. I hope that others don't have to suffer the way I did, but I know now that it is better to suffer than remain arrogant against the truth.
America enjoys the prosperity it has today because of God's blessings on it and the house of Israel who were sifted into the Gentile nations, needing a homeland and pleasant place where they could expand into the mighty nation of people that God foresaw and promised Abraham. It happened, but just like the children of Israel of old, we are starting to take God out of our country's heritage and denying His name. It is America who takes care of its brother Judah in Israel, today, but few even understand why. It is all tied together for the last events to come before Jesus will return. The devil will have his day again, and many false Christs will arise and fool many. A one world religion will appear and deny the power of God, thinking it does a favor to do away with all the true believers of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but that just follows what Jesus said would happen. He said that He brought a sword into this world that would divide it and it has. Jesus said that if they hated Him they would hate us too, eventually, and the time of grace seems to be really coming to a fast end. That is when the judgment of this world will begin, and it will be given over to its lusts for power. World war will take place once more, but a false savior will appear and demand a one world system under him. When that happens, it won't be long till the Lord's return. This is all written in the Bible - about Israel and the antichrist's one world system where a person cannot buy or sell without the mark of his money exchange system. The technology is in place and ready to go. People scoff at the Bible, yet its prophets foresaw nuclear exchange long before men realized such power.
All I can tell you is be patient and keep studying. I am no better than you and probably twice more hard headed the the average person. If God can fianlly break through with me, He can with anybody, and what a pleasure it is to know Him! Don't choose to quit until all the evidence and facts of life have quit coming in. You don't know what knowledge tomorrow holds, and it may be real good.

 

[MikeMcK]

A believer in exile, is a person who basically finds the traditional way of thinking and being a christian as dead or dying in our modern world.

They can no longer honestly recite the creeds or believe in the doctrines of their faith, yet still believe that christ is a powerful force in their lives.

They are believers but are in exile because they have found the language, theology of their beliefs, and the rituals have become dishonest.

If they can't follow the doctrines of Christ, then how can they follow Christ?

 

[manimal2878]

If they can't follow the doctrines of Christ, then how can they follow Christ?

Because they follow christ and not the doctrines of christ. They do not believe in an inerrant bible so they see the doctrines as false.

 

[manimal2878]

All I can tell you is be patient and keep studying. I am no better than you and probably twice more hard headed the the average person. If God can fianlly break through with me, He can with anybody, and what a pleasure it is to know Him! Don't choose to quit until all the evidence and facts of life have quit coming in. You don't know what knowledge tomorrow holds, and it may be real good.

Maybe you are right, I can't see what I will think in the future.

 

[MikeMcK]

Because they follow christ and not the doctrines of christ. They do not believe in an inerrant bible so they see the doctrines as false.

I see. So, how do they manage to follow Christ, while being disobedient to His teachings?

 

[manimal2878]

I see. So, how do they manage to follow Christ, while being disobedient to His teachings?

They aren't disobediant to what they see as his teachings they are disobediant to what you see as his teachings.

 

[axshonjackson]

For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile." -Jeremiah 29:11-14

EXILE: n 1: voluntarily absent from home or country [syn: expatriate] 2: expelled from home or country by authority [syn: deportee] 3: the act of expelling a person from their native land;

I felt exiled when I was involved in my active addiction to narcotics. Today I am in recovery and by looking at that verse above, I interpret it as: While I was 'exiled' from my native land of Christian living and obedience, I was being carried by God. Kind of like the footprints poem. God never turned his back on me... EVER! I turned my back on him. Today God is not on my side... I AM ON HIS SIDE!

I see it like this: Anything good that happens to us comes from God. Anything bad that happens to us doesn't necessarily come from God, but God allows it to happen to serve His Divine Purpose. It is all part of His Plan for each of us.

I know I feel real good right now, being in close contact with God on a daily basis. I am on the 'mountain top'. But I also know that I am grateful for all the bad that has happend in my life, when I was stuck in the 'valleys' of life.

But look at the mountain and valleys. The only thing on the mountain top are rocks and ice. If you look in the valleys, you will find beautiful flowers and trees and grass and streams. I feel good on the mountain top because I feel closer to God, but in the valleys is where we grow.

I wouldn't have the relationship with God that I have now if I hadn't been through all the rough times in my life.

I may be wayyyy off track with what answers you are looking for... but I felt I should share anyways. Take care and God Bless!

 

[Rafael]

Maybe you are right, I can't see what I will think in the future.
Also it is interesting Matt called him the son of man and not god, why do you think that is?

It is a very wonderful thing that God has done for us through Jesus - Son of God and Son of man. By coming to earth in the flesh, He has chosen to identify Himself with man in the most intimate of ways. No longer is He just God that stands aloof, unreachable and unknowable. He has come and lived as a man, experiencing all things as a man so that He could be complete in His sympathies and union with mankind as His creation for fellowship, and it goes even farther in that relationship, being described as a marriage. That is why His Father was the Holy spirit of God that came upon Mary - so that He would be not only man, but God. He would not have the nature of Adam passed to Him that is cursed with sin and death. Only because of this ws He able to live a sinless life and be the innocent sacrifice without spot or wrinkle that was required in the Old Testament as a propitiation for mankinds fall into sin and death.
There are so many questions concerning why a God so powerful would lower Himself to such an estate or allow any evil to exist at all, but think about it. How could love ever exist without a full choice between the two extremes of light and darkness; good and evil?
Look at history and its record of this man, Jesus. He was either God, as He claimed, or a liar. He worked the miracles He did to confirm who He was, and they all were fulfillment of prophecies given to those who were promised God's covenant blessings. The influence Jesus has had on history is evident to this day with the free peoples of the earth still calling themselves by His name, even though this is waning too, as idols of this world replace Him. His promise to Abraham and two houses of Israel that followed through his seed, have indeed produced a mighty free nation of believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It cannot be denied that they have enjoyed great power as the Bible descibes power. They have "possessed the gates of their enemies", controling the flow of the earth's wealth, and they have enjoyed the fat of the land, being prosperous in all ways, agriculturally and power. God said that through these people the entire earth would have the opportunity to be blessed, but if they broke their covenant with God and turned away from Him, their enemies would be used to chastise them. Look at the big picture and consider it too, as you seek. Continue to consider the words of Jesus carefully. He didn't try to be cryptic or misleading with us, but spoke words of spirit and life.

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

That sentence only says that nobody gets to god without going through Jesus first, it does not say that any specific belief is asked or required. Just like I get to the airplane through the terminal. I don't have to believe anything about the terminal.

The specific belief is written right there - belief in Him - Jesus or the Christ, Messiah, anointed One of God. Believers weren't called Christians at first, and all who call themselves by His name today aren't always telling the truth. Belief is a trust that He will do what He says He will do and that He is who He says that He is.
Faith in Jesus Christ as God is repeated continually throughout scripture, and it is said that all knees will bow to Him someday as King of Kings. He alone is worthy of that title, having suffered and died for mankind. Why you say you cannot see that the scriptures do not speak of a specific belief, I can't quite figure, but I believe you will find the answer if you keep seeking with all your heart and refuse to narrow your mind to all that is possible with God. Here is just a few more of many scriptures speaking of who Jesus is. He is the living word of God that walked among men, by whom all things were created. He was God's presense with man until He left to prepare a place for us and intercede for us before the Father, sending His Holy Spirit as a comforter and helper until His return. All these manifestations of God have one purpose, and that is to benefit the object of His love, the Church, but don't be put off by the word "Church", as in the Greek ecclesia just means a group or gathering of people who believe and trust in Him - not by just words, but with their actions. It is easy to say we believe in something, but the rubber hits the road by how we act upon the word of God - whether it is truly alive in us or just a mental assention. God gives us grace to grow towards a strong faith. He gives us this time to seek Him and know Him by faith. Life is a gift given to us to wonder at and then seek the Author of it. When I first started out, I didn't have clue, but I was determined to know once I knew that there was no way I could put off the truth that this life had to come from a Master of such incredible design that I could barely find words to cover the beauty and complexity of it. I have found that as the truth is found there is less gray area, as long as we keep walking towards the light. His truth that is light dispells the gray from our lives the closer we get to Him, but the Bible says that some men prefer the darkness so that their own deeds are not brought into the light. I can testify this to be true in my life, and I only offer encouragement to you to keep considering the words Jesus spoke to us and the words He continued to speak to us through the Holy Spirit that inspired His servants like the apostle Paul. Continue, and I know you will find life and answers to all questions, Just don't close the doors to the literal meaning of Jesus words about who He said He was and is. This is my hope and prayer for you.

1Ti 2:5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus.

Ro 3:30 There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with Himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

1Co 8:6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

John 1:14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father.

 

[MikeMcK]

They aren't disobediant to what they see as his teachings they are disobediant to what you see as his teachings.

Actually, you're the one who specified the "creeds" and "teachings" of Christianity.

 

[Annabel Lee]

What do you guys think of believer in exile?

Is this term even widely acknowledged yet?

It is acknowledged and will be moreso in the future.

"Sing us one of the songs of Zion," their tormentors demanded.
"How can we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?" the believers responded.

Same song, different beat?

Another good Spong book, if it wasn't already mentioned is "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism"

 

[manimal2878]

He has come and lived as a man, experiencing all things as a man .

Not if he hasn't experianced doubt that there is a god. since he was god (you claim)

The specific belief is written right there - belief in Him

I have read that sentance over and over, where in that sentence does it say belief in him is required? People keep pointing it out and saying look there it is. NO! it is not you apparantly cannot not even read it without automattically interpretting it through your doctrinal filter.

 

[manimal2878]

Actually, you're the one who specified the "creeds" and "teachings" of Christianity.

huh?

...and you asked how can they still claim to follow christ.

 

[MikeMcK]

huh?

...and you asked how can they still claim to follow christ.

Right.

How can one say that he follows Christ, when he denies Christ's teaching or those creeds that codify the Christian faith?

 

[manimal2878]

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

you take "through" me to mean I must have faith in him being the sacrificial lamb. Why.

Alll he says is that without him none could get to the father. That can be true without me having to believe anything, it does not mean I have to have faith in jesus as my saviour.

EXAMPLE: I may have freedom through what our navy seals do, but i don't have to believe what they do is even happening, or have any knowledge of it or even understand it, in fact I get the benifit of their "sacrifice to their country" whether I even knew such an agency existed or not.

So a seal could say "nonecome to freedom except through the navy seals" And he would be right, yet I would still not have to believe anything for that to be true.

 

[manimal2878]

Right.

How can one say that he follows Christ, when he denies Christ's teaching or those creeds that codify the Christian faith?

Stop it, you're making my head hurt.

He follows christ by following the example set by jesus in the gospels, he believes that the lessons of Jesus: love thy neighbor, compassion, forgiveness, etc, the stuff jesus did for others in his life, not his death are the important part of of what Jesus life meant for us.

The creeds that codify the christian faith do just that, they codify the christian faith, they are part of following THE RELIGION OF CHRISTIANITY, not following what the teachings of Jesus.

Do you see the difference?
You don't have to agree I am just telling you what I believe he thinks from the book I have been reading.

 

[MikeMcK]

Stop it, you're making my head hurt.

He follows christ by following the example set by jesus in the gospels, he believes that the lessons of Jesus: love thy neighbor, compassion, forgiveness, etc, the stuff jesus did for others in his life, not his death are the important part of of what Jesus life meant for us.

That's swell and all, but those things don't make one a Christian.

Jesus was very clear that men will do things in the name of following Him, but when the rubber meets the road, they don't belong to Him.

The creeds that codify the christian faith do just that, they codify the christian faith, they are part of following THE RELIGION OF CHRISTIANITY, not following what the teachings of Jesus.

But the religion of Christianity is centered around the teachings and claims of Jesus.

You can't follow Jesus and not follow Jesus at the same time.