Belief systems of Abusive Individuals

[Zoii]

I can understand your sentiments. Since none of the kind husbands that women submit to ever get any press, it seems like they are all idiots and the idea of submitting to anyone seems idiotic as well. However, just because one cannot follow instructions does not invalidate the instructions. To the contrary, it proves the user in the fault, especially when the instructions do not provide an expiration date.

Its the instructions that I have an issue with - but please lets not debate it because this thread's concept is: accepting submission, how do we prevent it from moving to abuse.

 

[Halbhh]

Its the instructions that I have an issue with - but please lets not debate it because this thread's concept is: accepting submission, how do we prevent it from moving to abuse.

When with a non-believer spouse (abusive people show they haven't yet truly come to Christ), you need the other instructions written for that other situation. While believer couples (both truly believers) are directed to "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." this is not the instruction for that other situation, or very incomplete, at most. What more is needed, well primarily the goal is to attempt to aid the non believer (the abuser) to be converted to Christ, if you can. You are not at all required to follow them, obey them, in their wrongness.

 

[RaymondG]

I believe that we are taking spiritual text and trying to force them into the natural. Every huMan must work out their own soul salvation with fear and trembling. It would be a mistake to think ones souls progress is in the hands of another.....and this will not be an excuse that can be given in the end.

As far as physical married.....if two wish to enter an agreement together.....they should be able to decide how they want to live out the agreement and work together to see the agreement to the end. As everyone is different, the workings of the relationship cannot be letter written in stone, applicable to everyone. Females who wish to be alone or run a house is free to do so. Men who want to be married and take care of the house and kids and let the female work....are free to do so. But the two must be in agreement which each other for things to work out.

 

[Zoii]

When with a non-believer spouse (abusive people show they haven't yet truly come to Christ), you need the other instructions written for that other situation. While believers are directed to "Submit yourselves to one another" This is not the instruction for that other situation, or very incomplete, at most.

OK Ive tried to back off on this argument but lets get a few things accurate here. For some reason the guys here believe that its only the non-believers who abuse women. Its only the ungodly ones. NONSENSE. Theres been some excellent journalist documentaries on this very topic with several looking how wives/women are treated by "Godly men"
Raped, tracked, humiliated: Clergy wives speak about domestic violence
'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God
Chained Women: The Jewish wives being held hostage in abusive marriages

 

[Halbhh]

OK Ive tried to back off on this argument but lets get a few things accurate here. For some reason the guys here believe that its only the non-believers who abuse women. Its only the ungodly ones. NONSENSE. Theres been some excellent journalist documentaries on this very topic with several looking how wives/women are treated by "Godly men"
Raped, tracked, humiliated: Clergy wives speak about domestic violence
'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God
Chained Women: The Jewish wives being held hostage in abusive marriages

Listening to Christ, Paul, John, and James, we can learn what they teach, and they teach clearly that anyone doing wrongs in a continuing way is not going to be entering eternal Life.

In short, they are not yet on track to gain salvation unless they radically repent and turn and change. They could be later, if they truly repent, but are not yet. Some (even if few) may turn, later, and some/many will not, we can expect.

Claiming to be Christian, having a church, etc. doesn't make a person His. Not even if 90% of other people imagine (wrongly) that they are.

See, Christianity isn't what seems appearance wise on the outside to be, but instead, Christ teaches us very sharply and clearly and repeatedly, what is real and in actions. He is very clear on this. It's not ambiguous. Of course you can find all sorts pretending without being His. This is just what is often addressed in the gospels and epistles.

Pointing out the true lostness that many can have while claiming to be Christian -- that's not new even in the first century. It's a normal situation that only some are following Him, and He said that also, clearly.

 

[deusartemlux]

Its the instructions that I have an issue with - but please lets not debate it because this thread's concept is: accepting submission, how do we prevent it from moving to abuse.

Acknowledged and respected. Thank your lucky stars I'm a metaphysical objectivist but cultural relativist
peace out!

 

[deusartemlux]

Listening to Christ, Paul, John, and James, we can learn what they teach, and they teach clearly that anyone doing wrongs in a continuing way is not going to be entering eternal Life.

In short, they are not yet on track to gain salvation unless they radically repent and turn and change. They could be later, if they truly repent, but are not yet. Some (even if few) may turn, later, and some/many will not, we can expect.

Claiming to be Christian, having a church, etc. doesn't make a person His. Not even if 90% of other people imagine (wrongly) that they are.

See, Christianity isn't what seems appearance wise on the outside to be, but instead, Christ teaches us very sharply and clearly and repeatedly, what is real and in actions. He is very clear on this. It's not ambiguous. Of course you can find all sorts pretending without being His. This is just what is often addressed in the gospels and epistles.

Pointing out the true lostness that many can have while claiming to be Christian -- that's not new even in the first century. It's a normal situation that only some are following Him, and He said that also, clearly.

 

[Halbhh]

Perpetrators of Domestic Violence – New Hope, Inc.

The Center for Relationship Abuse Awareness & Action

Types of abuse – spiritual abuse

It strikes me that those insisting that women submit rather than focussing on what their own responsibilities are more likely to be perpetrators of abuse.

Would educating/discipling these individuals in a Church setting help them to change before they met someone or got married?

There is nothing wrong with the Bible verses saying a wife should submit to her husband. But the premise is that those who are focussed too strongly on that alone are more likely to be perpetrators of abuse. It links in with the types of thinking that turns wonen into victims.

As a church trained people could actually recognise this and prevent a great deal of sin.

Whoops I noticed that my smart phone when I poke at the very tiny buttons I may accidentally get the 'funny' button! Whoops! Please forgive that.

It's instead more like 'agree', and 'useful', and 'optimistic'.

We might, for example, help someone realize they haven't truly focused on Christ. They might enter a new walk, or even for the first time!

 

[Sam91]

Whoops I noticed that my smart phone when I poke at the very tiny buttons I may accidentally get the 'funny' button! Whoops! Please forgive that.

It's instead more like 'agree', and 'useful', and 'optimistic'.

We might, for example, help someone realize they haven't truly focused on Christ. They might enter a new walk, or even for the first time!

There was me thinking you had changed your mind. Hehe.

I do hope that it might change someones thinking or that someone in the right position in a church or two might be inspired in some way.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

OK Ive tried to back off on this argument but lets get a few things accurate here. For some reason the guys here believe that its only the non-believers who abuse women. Its only the ungodly ones. NONSENSE. Theres been some excellent journalist documentaries on this very topic with several looking how wives/women are treated by "Godly men"
Raped, tracked, humiliated: Clergy wives speak about domestic violence
'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God
Chained Women: The Jewish wives being held hostage in abusive marriages

Hey, Sis, let's also keep in mind that just because there are men who claim to believe in Jesus as Lord doesn't mean they're either godly or fully Christian. They could think as much in their own eyes, but if they're abusing their position, or abusing their wives, then I think we can say they ain't really doing what they're supposed to do. And we know this by taking 'all' of the Word of God into consideration, not just those tidbits that abusive "christians" like to use to proof-text their feigned authority over on others.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Sam91]

When with a non-believer spouse (abusive people show they haven't yet truly come to Christ), you need the other instructions written for that other situation. While believer couples (both truly believers) are directed to "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." this is not the instruction for that other situation, or very incomplete, at most. What more is needed, well primarily the goal is to attempt to aid the non believer (the abuser) to be converted to Christ, if you can. You are not at all required to follow them, obey them, in their wrongness.

While I agree to most of what you said I do not think that all men who slip aren't Christians. David commited murder and he loved the Lord.

Unfortunately, that isn't the response Christian women tend get if you look online. Some churches will be better than others but quite of they do get told to submit. Churches tend not to believe wives because the husband is often a long standing Christian. Who can walk the talk. Meanwhile the woman is stressed, depressed and sometimes scared. So she doesn't come across as well as the guy. Often these women get told that if the submitted better then there wouldn't be an issue because Pastors (according to the victims and I think Christian counsellors) do not understand how to address the issues. In some Churches there is probably a better response which people are less like to want to talk about.

To intervene at a late stage is probably not the best situation. Maybe I am naive but I do wonder if some of it can be prevented by ensuring that younger men understand fuller picture that submission is the womans resposibility and he should be thinking more of how to be serving God and a good husband.

 

[Halbhh]

While I agree to most of what you said I do not think that all men who slip aren't Christians. David commited murder and he loved the Lord.

While I want to answer the rest, this needs to be highlighted -- what is the difference between David and a non-believer? (or what is the one here in this instance we need to notice atm)

That David repented.

So, I do need to be careful to add in that modifier: "continue to do those wrongs" (instead of only "do wrong") each time I point to the difference!

We all do wrongs.

But, believers repent and change, over time.

He said as much. (the example that comes to mind atm is "Bear fruits in keeping with repentance" ) And of course, we see this echoed in so many ways in the epistles.

So, that's a really helpful point to remember on this, for me.

 

[Halbhh]

While I agree to most of what you said I do not think that all men who slip aren't Christians. David commited murder and he loved the Lord.

Unfortunately, that isn't the response Christian women tend get if you look online. Some churches will be better than others but quite of they do get told to submit. Churches tend not to believe wives because the husband is often a long standing Christian. Who can walk the talk. Meanwhile the woman is stressed, depressed and sometimes scared. So she doesn't come across as well as the guy. Often these women get told that if the submitted better then there wouldn't be an issue because Pastors (according to the victims and I think Christian counsellors) do not understand how to address the issues. In some Churches there is probably a better response which people are less like to want to talk about.

To intervene at a late stage is probably not the best situation. Maybe I am naive but I do wonder if some of it can be prevented by ensuring that younger men understand fuller picture that submission is the womans resposibility and he should be thinking more of how to be serving God and a good husband.

I'd even say it's definitely harmful to quote verse 22 without 21 and 25! And even all of that chapter in Ephesians is far from enough by itself.

But your larger point is quite right imo, that counseling, help, education, for young married and engaged -- a very good thing!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As a church trained people could actually recognise this and prevent a great deal of sin.

Instead, the worldly churches have joined in creating wide spread abuse and worse, many more than the ekklesia following Jesus and abiding in Jesus honoring His Word.
Using "abuse" as a political or as a religious platform (as if for change) has never helped anyone - in fact it almost always if not always makes abuse worse, since it is not YHVH'S described way of life and correction.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

For some reason the guys here believe that its only the non-believers who abuse women. Its only the ungodly ones. NONSENSE.

Without using the world's viewpoints and world's definitions at all,

if someone abuses others, they are ungodly, all the time. (until and/or if they repent and are cleansed of their sin, and have a new life in Christ Jesus) .

Likewise, if anyone "CLAIMS" abuse, as if to take a believer to court,
they are guilty of different sin , as written in the NT.

Taking one another to court for anything, before UNgodly, UNrighteous judges is not advised , for any kind of sin in the assembly of ekklesia.

Taking one another to court for anything, before UNgodly, UNrighteous judges
IS ADVISED by UNgodly lawyers and perpetrators of sin and evil.
(and always for money, < shrugs > no matter who suffers (and all suffer when going about this man's way instead of God's Way)......)

 

[Sam91]

Instead, the worldly churches have joined in creating wide spread abuse and worse, many more than the ekklesia following Jesus and abiding in Jesus honoring His Word.
Using "abuse" as a political or as a religious platform (as if for change) has never helped anyone - in fact it almost always if not always makes abuse worse, since it is not YHVH'S described way of life and correction.

I think that surely the topics of how to be a good Christian partner ought to be introduced into single gender Bible study groups. That way people go into marriage with a more Christ like attitude. To serve rather than to be served. I dare say it isn't needed for everyone but strengthen these marraiges before they start than deal with problems after.

I don't think it would solve it where someone has deep intrenched wounds, only G_d can heal those.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

only G_d can heal those.

Only God through Jesus can heal any wounds, and even though with man it is impossible,
with God all things are possible (He desires this His Way).(not man's way).

I think that surely the topics of how to be a good Christian partner ought to be introduced into single gender Bible study groups.

At home, whenever a child is raised in the way they should go, they learn this from God's Word, more than most groups teach anywhere.

Man's ways fail, always. Man's so-called 'legal' remedies fail, always, and make things worse (more violent AND contrary to JESUS' Leading) instead of better.

That way people go into marriage with a more Christ like attitude. To serve rather than to be served.

There is a famine of the hearing of the Word of God worldwide, more in some places than in other areas on the earth.
Whenever ANYONE is born from above, born by the will of the Father, they become a NEW CREATION, with a new heart, and a new spirit, to serve joyfully EVEN a slave serving a harsh taskmaster/owner, as God's Word Says ! (surprise He says this clearly ! ) .
(a lot of fakers out there, is soon realized ! )

 

[Zoii]

Without using the world's viewpoints and world's definitions at all,

if someone abuses others, they are ungodly, all the time. (until and/or if they repent and are cleansed of their sin, and have a new life in Christ Jesus) .

Likewise, if anyone "CLAIMS" abuse, as if to take a believer to court,
they are guilty of different sin , as written in the NT.

Taking one another to court for anything, before UNgodly, UNrighteous judges is not advised , for any kind of sin in the assembly of ekklesia.

Taking one another to court for anything, before UNgodly, UNrighteous judges
IS ADVISED by UNgodly lawyers and perpetrators of sin and evil.
(and always for money, < shrugs > no matter who suffers (and all suffer when going about this man's way instead of God's Way)......)

Well Jeff i'll be succinct. I advocate for women who are being harmed by men. If that harm is criminal then I advocate they refer their "Godly" husband to the police to be judged by those ungodly courts.

 

[Shempster]

In my experience, abusive people are simply acting out in a negative way reflecting how they themselves have been treated in the past whether they realize it or not. They themselves were "abused" in some way
Understanding this should lead us to react to them with patience, kindness and love. Afterall, the reason for their attitude is the fact that they were previously not loved.
Jesus calls us to love even those who abuse us. This is WJWD.

When I say we are to love them it doesn't mean we MUST subject ourselves to the abuse. We should respond to them in love and be clear that we do not wish to be abused.

 

[Dave-W]

For some reason the guys here believe that its only the non-believers who abuse women. Its only the ungodly ones. NONSENSE. Theres been some excellent journalist documentaries on this very topic with several looking how wives/women are treated by "Godly men"

My question would be - are they REALLY "godly?" No they are not. And like our Lord said:

Unless they repent, they shall likewise perish. (go to hell)