Belief statements vs. behavior

[public hermit]

It's like not only am I helped inside, but also it seems like situations around me are also altered, a separate aid, additionally. I'm often surprised to find people suddenly acting differently than usual after I've prayed for us.

I know the experience. So, maybe we can say that our belief (faith) changes and grows based on these kinds of experiences (evidences)?

 

[Silmarien]

That's a good point. So, what is a phobia? Isn't it an irrational belief? In the case of Jim, he seems to have contradictory beliefs. Or, not contradictory, but he believes contradictory things with different credence levels, perhaps? He both believes the skywalk is safe, and yet also has this "irrational" belief that he still might fall? I'll be honest, if it were me, I would believe it is safe, and yet be a little nervous walking out.

Oh, I think phobias are more than just irrational beliefs. I have the infamous airplane phobia--knowing that it's safest form of transportation mitigates it but doesn't eliminate it. There's this fantastic quote I ran across a few months back from John Calvin, where he describes faith as a response to the anguish that comes with knowing that we're in danger of dying at any moment. I've always had a weirdly enhanced awareness of mortality, so I wonder if phobias aren't the reverse response to that.

Would it be accurate to say his behavior is influence by something unconscious?

Yes, I think so, but I don't think that the unconscious bit is a belief, per se.

I agree. I think it's pretty common for our behavior to not match our beliefs 100%. And, I also think the idea of sanctification as a process (in terms of the theological examples) is an important part of this.

There is something intuitively odd that I, perhaps, believe things I don't believe I believe. How can that be? Aren't I aware of what I believe? Perhaps not? What is a belief if one is not conscious of it?

Oh, yes. This is a pretty big question. I've struggled with it a ton, what with the whole ex-atheism thing--I've found that I can be intellectually convinced that theism is true on broadly Thomistic grounds, without actually "feeling" like it's true most of the time. Do I believe it? Do I not believe it? If I'm not sure if I believe something that I actually find intellectually compelling, what is going on in my head?

I like C.S. Lewis's idea about belief as intellectual consent rather than one's changing surface moods. Makes it a bit easier to sift through what is intellectual and what is emotional within the beliefs we think we have.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I think sometimes we accuse people of having inherent biases or animosity that's doesn't exist normally but may appear situationally..

An example is the new law that's being implemented in the U.K. where they can refuse someone treatment for exhibiting behavior they see as racially or discriminatorily motivated.

What kickstarted this new move to refuse medical treatment to people is a woman having a pap smear requested a woman to perform it. The request is perfectly normal, many women feel more comfortable with another female in such medical circumstances; sometimes the reasons are due to some existing trauma, like from rape, or even religious reasons or just feeling more comfortable in general.

So instead of sending her a woman to do the pap smear they sent in a transgender individual, who was biologically male. A fact that was reportedly obvious. So she got upset and threw some kind of fit over them not honoring her request.

This may not be something she would ordinarily have an issue with in different circumstances - i.e. not presenting her bare, intimate, female parts for inspection - but in this particular circumstance she had an issue.

Now they are making it so you can potentially be arrested in the U.K., and at the least be denied medical treatment that might be necessary, but not life threatening, for having issues that might not arise in a different situation - all due to what others may perceive.

I think not having a general bias doesn't mean there wont ever be an issue in some conceivable circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily mean your a racist, or someone who discriminates against others who are different from yourself...

Sometimes I think it's easy to point fingers, and never ask ourselves why someone might feel a certain way.

I'm terrified of heights, it's my one phobia that is so bad I cannot climb one rung on a ladder or stand on a chair, nor go up escalators etc etc. My feet need planted firmly on God's firmament.. however this doesn't mean I don't trust God.

Everything is usually situational and based on where one is at that place and time.

One may believe and trust in salvation but hasn't had time to mature in their faith so they will be more tentative in some areas than a more mature Christian etc.

For everything I think it's important to understand the situation the person is in before trying to judge the action.

 

[public hermit]

I think sometimes we accuse people of having inherent biases or animosity that's doesn't exist normally but may appear situationally..

Good point. It's similar to what @2PhiloVoid mentioned.

I'm terrified of heights, it's my one phobia that is so bad I cannot climb one rung on a ladder or stand on a chair, nor go up escalators etc etc. My feet need planted firmly on God's firmament.. however this doesn't mean I don't trust God.

Yes, even if we trust God we can still exhibit fear. So, it seems we can hold contradictory beliefs, just not in the same way? Would that be fair to say?

One may believe and trust in salvation but hasn't had time to mature in their faith so they will be more tentative in some areas than a more mature Christian etc.

I absolutely agree.

For everything I think it's important to understand the situation the person is in before trying to judge the action.

We don't have to consider this simply in terms of judging the actions of others. I have experienced myself do things contrary to what my stated belief would be. I think part of it is as you've touched on. We speak of our beliefs as if they are static, but we grow and mature. I can say as a Christian I believe x, and yet that belief as part of my lived experience is far from static. It goes back, I think, to your comment about the nature of various situations that we find ourselves in.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Good point. It's similar to what @2PhiloVoid mentioned.



Yes, even if we trust God we can still exhibit fear. So, it seems we can hold contradictory beliefs, just not in the same way? Would that be fair to say?



I absolutely agree.



We don't have to consider this simply in terms of judging the actions of others. I have experienced myself do things contrary to what my stated belief would be. I think part of it is as you've touched on. We speak of our beliefs as if they are static, but we grow and mature. I can say as a Christian I believe x, and yet that belief as part of my lived experience is far from static. It goes back, I think, to your comment about the nature of various situations that we find ourselves in.

True. Something I heard a pastor say not long ago was we repent when we are first saved, but we are also growing in repentance the more mature we become in the faith. In tthe same way, we have our initial faith, but it's a faith that likewise grows and gets deeper the more mature we get.

It's like going from a child to a full grown adult. We change and grow in Christ.

In some ways yes, we can be a contradiction at times... we can hold belief but not fully trust in every situation yet... it's as we encounter more situations where we have no choice but to trust, that the trust itself grows and deepens.

It's why our trials are so important to refining our faith.

 

[public hermit]

I have the infamous airplane phobia--knowing that it's safest form of transportation mitigates it but doesn't eliminate it.

I have a fear of heights, and I was a telephone lineman, haha. How's that for a contradictory way of being. I just ignored it and told myself, "You have to leave this world somehow." I never got completely over the fear, but just plowed ahead.

There's this fantastic quote I ran across a few months back from John Calvin, where he describes faith as a response to the anguish that comes with knowing that we're in danger of dying at any moment. I've always had a weirdly enhanced awareness of mortality, so I wonder if phobias aren't the reverse response to that.

Is that the part in the Institutes where he goes over the myriad of ways one can die? If it is, that's a terrifying passage. So, you're saying instead of faith, phobias are a kind of reverse response to our awareness of our own mortality? That makes sense.

Oh, yes. This is a pretty big question. I've struggled with it a ton, what with the whole ex-atheism thing--I've found that I can be intellectually convinced that theism is true on broadly Thomistic grounds, without actually "feeling" like it's true most of the time. Do I believe it? Do I not believe it? If I'm not sure if I believe something that I actually find intellectually compelling, what is going on in my head?

I like C.S. Lewis's idea about belief as intellectual consent rather than one's changing surface moods. Makes it a bit easier to sift through what is intellectual and what is emotional within the beliefs we think we have.

This is why I think faith is so much more than intellectual assent, or as I usually put it, mere belief. I would say the additional element is trust. Is that kind of what you mean by consent?

 

[public hermit]

True. Something I heard a pastor say not long ago was we repent when we are first saved, but we are also growing in repentance the more mature we become in the faith. In tthe same way, we have our initial faith, but it's a faith that likewise grows and gets deeper the more mature we get.

It's like going from a child to a full grown adult. We change and grow in Christ.

In some ways yes, we can be a contradiction at times... we can hold belief but not fully trust in every situation yet... it's as we encounter more situations where we have no choice but to trust, that the trust itself grows and deepens.

It's why our trials are so important to refining our faith.

These are really helpful thoughts. It brings to mind the idea that we are to grow into the full stature of Christ. That's quite a stature to grow into!

 

[eleos1954]

My question concerns those instances where someone states they believe p, and yet their behavior indicates they believe not-p. How are we to understand these instances?

In each example let's be generous and assume each person believes they believe what they say they believe.

Example 1
Jim is at the Grand Canyon and says, "I believe it is perfectly safe to walk out on the skywalk." However, when he walks out on it he begins to shake, trembling with fear. Does Jim believe the skywalk is perfectly safe, or no?

Example 2
Betty says that she trusts her boyfriend, Bill. And yet, when Bill is not around she often worries that he is acting in an untrustworthy manner. Does Betty believe Bill is trustworthy, or no?

Example 3
Elmer states that he believes all races are equal. And yet, Elmer exhibits implicit bias in his everyday interactions with those of races other than his own. Does Elmer believe all races are equal, or no?

Theological example 1
Percival says that he believes he is forgiven by the grace given in Jesus Christ. And yet, Percival experiences fears that he is unforgiven. Does Percival believe that he is forgiven, or no?

Theological example 2
Fred, a professing Christian, says that he believes Christians should help the poor. And yet, Fred makes no effort to help the poor. Does Fred believe Christians should help the poor, or no?

I have tried to give a wide variety of examples in hopes of helping us get a better sense of the issue. People's belief statements are sometimes at odds with their behavior, reactions, experiences, etc. There seems to be several explanations.

One possibility is that in spite of what one says they believe, their actions, reactions, behavior, etc. belie the truth. They may say they believe p, but their behavior shows they really believe not-p. This does not mean they are lying when they say they believe p, but it does raise the question as to why they think they believe something when it seems they don't.

Another possibility is that a person can believe both p and not-p, just not with the same credence value (i.e. believes one more than the other). The problem with this explanation is that in the examples above each one clearly believes they believe one and not the other. So, how can one believe what they don't believe they believe.

Finally, the theological examples highlight one of the problems with assuming that Christian faith is simply a matter of mere belief. In Theological Example 1, the issue may be that Percival has a mere belief that forgiveness is given through Jesus Christ, but not the requisite trust that such grace has been given to him.

What are your thoughts? Do we believe things we don't believe? If so, how can one be mistaken about one's own beliefs? Or, do we really believe what we think we believe, but not as much as we might have assumed? What are some other possibilities?

As far as the theological examples go: Is faith a matter of mere belief, or is there something else entailed in faith, such as trust? Does one's beliefs need to be commensurate with one's behavior? Why or why not?

One possibility is that in spite of what one says they believe, their actions, reactions, behavior, etc. belie the truth. They may say they believe p, but their behavior shows they really believe not-p. This does not mean they are lying when they say they believe p, but it does raise the question as to why they think they believe something when it seems they don't.

Paul summed it up ...

Romans 7

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

and ... for myself ... I really relate to this. ;o)

It's a struggle for all of us.

 

[public hermit]

and ... for myself ... I really relate to this. ;o)

Yeah, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I know exactly. I know some will argue Paul is referencing something other than a Christian's continued struggles, but regardless I do think we all struggle. At least, I have yet to meet the Christian who no longer does.

 

[Silmarien]

I have a fear of heights, and I was a telephone lineman, haha. How's that for a contradictory way of being. I just ignored it and told myself, "You have to leave this world somehow." I never got completely over the fear, but just plowed ahead.

Hahaha, I can definitely identify with that.

Is that the part in the Institutes where he goes over the myriad of ways one can die? If it is, that's a terrifying passage. So, you're saying instead of faith, phobias are a kind of reverse response to our awareness of our own mortality? That makes sense.

Haha, I'm not sure exactly where it was from, since I came across it in an online course on Calvin out of Geneva, but that sounds about right.

But yeah, I think phobias are usually associated with the need to be in control, which in turn plays into the issue of dependency we've been discussing elsewhere.

This is why I think faith is so much more than intellectual assent, or as I usually put it, mere belief. I would say the additional element is trust. Is that kind of what you mean by consent?

Hmm. No, I meant intellectual assent but used the wrong word. I do think that faith is much more than intellectual assent, but not identical to whatever surface level moods you might be experiencing.

Your first theological example, for instance, strikes me as describing someone who believes in grace but might struggle with self-worth issues. The result might look like conflicting beliefs, but I think it's more a conflict between a belief as intellectual assent and an emotional problem. Does it mean he doesn't have faith? That probably depends on how serious the fears are.

 

[dms1972]

Example 1
Jim is at the Grand Canyon and says, "I believe it is perfectly safe to walk out on the skywalk." However, when he walks out on it he begins to shake, trembling with fear. Does Jim believe the skywalk is perfectly safe, or no?

Great topic and thanks for such a well thought out series of examples. I'll just take your first example at the moment, I might be able to reply to some of the others later.

In this case it may be the person has been on skywalks before but not on this skywalk and so his comment is based on other experiences he has had, but not on his experience of this one. He may believe it is safe probably based on reasoning and other experiences of skywalks, just as a patient may believe anesthetics are safe and surgeons don't cut you open until you are well anesnetized, but still experiences some anxiety when he is being wheeled to the operating theatre. So there seems to be a zone were one's emotions may be somewhat in tension with one's beliefs or reason, while yet one could still be said to believe? That he acted by walking out on the Grand Canyon skywalk shows he was prepared to act on his belief, but if he said it was safe but looked around for an excuse to avoid going out on it then I would say he didn't really believe it was safe in the first place.

 

[Nancy Hale]

My question concerns those instances where someone states they believe p, and yet their behavior indicates they believe not-p. How are we to understand these instances?

In each example let's be generous and assume each person believes they believe what they say they believe.

Example 1
Jim is at the Grand Canyon and says, "I believe it is perfectly safe to walk out on the skywalk." However, when he walks out on it he begins to shake, trembling with fear. Does Jim believe the skywalk is perfectly safe, or no?

Example 2
Betty says that she trusts her boyfriend, Bill. And yet, when Bill is not around she often worries that he is acting in an untrustworthy manner. Does Betty believe Bill is trustworthy, or no?

Example 3
Elmer states that he believes all races are equal. And yet, Elmer exhibits implicit bias in his everyday interactions with those of races other than his own. Does Elmer believe all races are equal, or no?

Theological example 1
Percival says that he believes he is forgiven by the grace given in Jesus Christ. And yet, Percival experiences fears that he is unforgiven. Does Percival believe that he is forgiven, or no?

Theological example 2
Fred, a professing Christian, says that he believes Christians should help the poor. And yet, Fred makes no effort to help the poor. Does Fred believe Christians should help the poor, or no?

I have tried to give a wide variety of examples in hopes of helping us get a better sense of the issue. People's belief statements are sometimes at odds with their behavior, reactions, experiences, etc. There seems to be several explanations.

One possibility is that in spite of what one says they believe, their actions, reactions, behavior, etc. belie the truth. They may say they believe p, but their behavior shows they really believe not-p. This does not mean they are lying when they say they believe p, but it does raise the question as to why they think they believe something when it seems they don't.

Another possibility is that a person can believe both p and not-p, just not with the same credence value (i.e. believes one more than the other). The problem with this explanation is that in the examples above each one clearly believes they believe one and not the other. So, how can one believe what they don't believe they believe.

Finally, the theological examples highlight one of the problems with assuming that Christian faith is simply a matter of mere belief. In Theological Example 1, the issue may be that Percival has a mere belief that forgiveness is given through Jesus Christ, but not the requisite trust that such grace has been given to him.

What are your thoughts? Do we believe things we don't believe? If so, how can one be mistaken about one's own beliefs? Or, do we really believe what we think we believe, but not as much as we might have assumed? What are some other possibilities?

As far as the theological examples go: Is faith a matter of mere belief, or is there something else entailed in faith, such as trust? Does one's beliefs need to be commensurate with one's behavior? Why or why not?

I know I can swim. My mom took me to lessons every summer as a kid and I lived close to the Pacific Ocean. The neighborhood kids and I went there about every day and i swam in the ocean all day long. I'd go out to where my feet couldn't touch the ground. I knew the lifeguards would call everyone in if a jellyfish was spotted or a riptide.
Then Jaws came out... I still knew I could swim. I still trusted the lifeguards with riptides and jellyfish but I aware there could be things they might not see. I never went out past my knees or waist, even then I suspected there were things lurking that couldn't be seen.
I think everyone becomes aware of "the unknown" and that's where our fear is of; it's not disbelief that I think your examples show, but fear.
I believe in helping the poor. Some ppl on the street are scary. Some charities don't give the money to the cause so much, but pay CEOs. And, there is the ever present narrative of what is truly helping the poor on social media. Fear, fear, fear. People get bogged down with it and it looks like they are doing nothing.
I think it's why God tells us so many times not to be afraid. Fear stops us from doing what we believe.

 

[Halbhh]

Paul summed it up ...

Romans 7

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

and ... for myself ... I really relate to this. ;o)

It's a struggle for all of us.

Yeah, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I know exactly. I know some will argue Paul is referencing something other than a Christian's continued struggles, but regardless I do think we all struggle. At least, I have yet to meet the Christian who no longer does.

Yeah. The understanding in our church is that all sin, and so all need to confess at times, and when we do we are cleansed and restored. Over and over. Peter at first objected that Christ would wash his feet, but then learned that he needed it to be done!

 

[Nancy Hale]

I only had about 20 minutes before I had to get running again, so I didn't read the comments (2 minutes now!) I see someone already brought up the same thing I did.
Sorry.

 

[Jamdoc]

"The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak"

 

[Aussie Pete]

My question concerns those instances where someone states they believe p, and yet their behavior indicates they believe not-p. How are we to understand these instances?

In each example let's be generous and assume each person believes they believe what they say they believe.

Example 1
Jim is at the Grand Canyon and says, "I believe it is perfectly safe to walk out on the skywalk." However, when he walks out on it he begins to shake, trembling with fear. Does Jim believe the skywalk is perfectly safe, or no?

Example 2
Betty says that she trusts her boyfriend, Bill. And yet, when Bill is not around she often worries that he is acting in an untrustworthy manner. Does Betty believe Bill is trustworthy, or no?

Example 3
Elmer states that he believes all races are equal. And yet, Elmer exhibits implicit bias in his everyday interactions with those of races other than his own. Does Elmer believe all races are equal, or no?

Theological example 1
Percival says that he believes he is forgiven by the grace given in Jesus Christ. And yet, Percival experiences fears that he is unforgiven. Does Percival believe that he is forgiven, or no?

Theological example 2
Fred, a professing Christian, says that he believes Christians should help the poor. And yet, Fred makes no effort to help the poor. Does Fred believe Christians should help the poor, or no?

I have tried to give a wide variety of examples in hopes of helping us get a better sense of the issue. People's belief statements are sometimes at odds with their behavior, reactions, experiences, etc. There seems to be several explanations.

One possibility is that in spite of what one says they believe, their actions, reactions, behavior, etc. belie the truth. They may say they believe p, but their behavior shows they really believe not-p. This does not mean they are lying when they say they believe p, but it does raise the question as to why they think they believe something when it seems they don't.

Another possibility is that a person can believe both p and not-p, just not with the same credence value (i.e. believes one more than the other). The problem with this explanation is that in the examples above each one clearly believes they believe one and not the other. So, how can one believe what they don't believe they believe.

Finally, the theological examples highlight one of the problems with assuming that Christian faith is simply a matter of mere belief. In Theological Example 1, the issue may be that Percival has a mere belief that forgiveness is given through Jesus Christ, but not the requisite trust that such grace has been given to him.

What are your thoughts? Do we believe things we don't believe? If so, how can one be mistaken about one's own beliefs? Or, do we really believe what we think we believe, but not as much as we might have assumed? What are some other possibilities?

As far as the theological examples go: Is faith a matter of mere belief, or is there something else entailed in faith, such as trust? Does one's beliefs need to be commensurate with one's behavior? Why or why not?

Faith is trust. Believing can be just mental agreement. Unless believing includes corresponding action, it is not the believing of faith. Faith does not function in a vacuum. It needs something to have faith about. Biblical faith has to have hope. Someone put it like this: "Hope is the mould into which we pour faith". I've been to the Grand Canyon. Yep, it's awesome. I had to arrange my expired passport, book flights, accommodation, and transport to and from LA to the Grand Canyon. In spite of all this, I would not have got there if I had not got on the plane. That's what James meant by, "Faith without works is dead". Watching a video documentary is not the same thing.

Why does faith produce (corresponding) works? For example, if you have faith that God will supply your every need, you will not fear to give to others in need. The reason faith works is that it is a gift of God. For example, do you know that God loves you? Many who call themselves Christian do not believe that. They see themselves as not worthy. Yet God's word assures us that God loves us unconditionally. Faith rises up when the written word (logos) becomes the living word (rhema) in our hearts. When we know God loves us, we have great assurance and peace even in difficult times.

The opposite of faith is fear and worry. It's Satan's calling card. Many Christian mothers fret and worry about their kids. Many Christians worry about money. When we put the burden on the Lord and rest in Him, we are having faith with the corresponding work.

We need to know that doubt is often an attack from Satan. He cast doubt on God's word when He tempted Eve and again when he tempted Lord Jesus in the wilderness. Don't be surprised if he attacks God's word to you. Doubt your doubts! Let God's word be your reality and truth! Without faith it is impossible to please God. Let Christ, who is your Life, be your faith.

 

[YesMe]

Are we not all hypocrites? @Jamdoc said it well, the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak, we know the truth, the right action, the right answer, the right word, the right mind, we know, but we keep missing the mark ( this is the actual translation of the word "sin", to miss the mark" ).

 

[SkyWriting]

My question concerns those instances where someone states they believe p, and yet their behavior indicates they believe not-p. How are we to understand these instances?

Normal. We all speak what we desire to be true.

"How are we to understand these instances?"
Other people are as normal and imperfect and self delusional as ourselves.
If we think we are not self-delusional, then we are deluding ourselves.
And we are certainly incapable of knowing the heart & mind and sins of others.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

 

[SkyWriting]

As always, you have some interesting and helpful thoughts. So, you would say that we sometimes believe things we don't actually believe?

Most of the time.
Being self aware is a skill about 10% have to a good degree, according to researchers.

 

[Blade]

Hmm thanks for this. Is there not a enemy out there that seeks to kill steal and destroy us? That knows all of our weaknesses. Lol no I don't believe ever thing that happens THE DEVIL MADE ME TO IT DUH!

So like others.. feelings so many times are deceiving. Can we not walk by faith when our feelings are somewhere else? Great questions here. Lol.. like the song playing.. fits.. Like you love me Tauren Wells