Belief is not a choice

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
But prayer in the absence of belief in God is not honest.
I don't believe that any gods exist so a prayer to a god would not be authentic.
I would feel like I was pretending (which I would be.)

If God exists and wants me to know him, he knows where I am.

And that's all you need to know.

Clizby WampusCat · Mar 2, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
So?

So I never said I wanted to convince you of anything. Its just a conversation.

If you'd rather not answer, that's fine.

Answer what? I did answer you directly. You are the one that stopped the conversation not me.

Blindwatchmaker · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
And that's all you need to know.

But here's where it gets ugly.
If I die of Covid next week before God has found time in his schedule to give me a new disposition which would suddenly have made everything convincing to me (despite finding the evidence decidedly underwhelming for decades), then what?

Then depending on your theology, I'm either sent to Hell or some oblivion.
And everyone here seems totally fine with that.

Again - I'm not rebelling against God. I don't hate God. I'm not angry with God.
It all just seems like Harry Potter to me.

Kenny'sID · Mar 2, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
So I never said I wanted to convince you of anything. Its just a conversation.

Lol

Then why were you trying so hard to convince me?

Blindwatchmaker · Mar 2, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
Lol

Then why were you trying so hard to convince me?

To be fair, whatever your view on my opening post, you were making a preposterous claim.
You said that you can decide to believe ANYTHING on a whim and no matter how much evidence you have counter to that claim you will still believe it.
That just isn't how correctly functioning human brains operate.

d taylor · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
You are incorrect.
This is not about what I want or don't want.
I made a decision as a young man with an inquiring mind to follow the evidence wherever it leads.
I simply don't find the claims of Christianity any more convincing than the claims of any other religion.
They all seem decidedly man made to me.
I could be wrong of course and am open to being so.
But I can only be convinced of what I find convincing.
Which is the same for you and everyone else too.

I bet you don't spend one second worrying about going to Islamic Hell even though muslims would say that's where you and I are heading. Why don't you?
Because you simply don't find their claims convincing. (Just like me.)

But it's not a choice. You couldnt suddenly decide to believe them any more than you can decide to believe in Santa.

christianity is not about a system like islam and is opposed to what the Messiah is offering.

christianity is about a person/man and who do you believe He is.

Maybe you or even with an influence by satan has been blinded by being exposed to christianity which has taken evidence/information from the Bible and turned it into a system. Which most always brings about misunderstanding and turning away or rejection of the truth.

Blindwatchmaker · Mar 2, 2021

d taylor said:
christianity is not about a system like islam and is opposed to what the Messiah is offering.

christianity is about a person/man and who do you believe He is.

Maybe you or even with an influence by satan has been blinded by being exposed to christianity which has taken evidence/information from the Bible and turned it into a system. Which most always brings about misunderstanding and turning away or rejection of the truth.

Well, I can only do my best.
Search for truth and understanding with an open mind and heart.
If Satan is stopping me from being convinced, then is it right for God to punish me?
Why doesn't God stop Satan from messing with people?
Is it because he can't (not powerful enough) or because he doesnt want to (perhaps he's busy?..)

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
But here's where it gets ugly.
If I die of Covid next week before God has found time in his schedule to give me a new disposition which would suddenly have made everything convincing to me (despite finding the evidence decidedly underwhelming for decades), then what?

The condition you stipulated was: "If God exists and wants me to know him, he knows where I am."

And that will be the answer.

Then depending on your theology, I'm either sent to Hell or some oblivion.
And everyone here seems totally fine with that.

Again - I'm not rebelling against God. I don't hate God. I'm not angry with God.
It all just seems like Harry Potter to me.

Blindwatchmaker · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
The condition you stipulated was: "If God exists and wants me to know him, he knows where I am."

That will be the answer.

Where does that leave the millions of people who died without belief in Christ?

For example, the six million Jews murdered by nazis in the holocaust.
Very few if any of them believed in Jesus.
Did God send them all to Hell directly once they left the gas chambers?

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
Where does that leave the millions of people who died without belief in Christ?

For example, the six million Jews murdered by nazis in the holocaust.
Very few if any of them believed in Jesus.
Did God send them all to Hell directly once they left the gas chambers?

Jesus said, "Whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

But it can be changed.

d taylor · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
Well, I can only do my best.
Search for truth and understanding with an open mind and heart.
If Satan is stopping me from being convinced, then is it right for God to punish me?
Why doesn't God stop Satan from messing with people?
Is it because he can't (not powerful enough) or because he doesnt want to (perhaps he's busy?..)

The Bible states a problem, man is and has sinned and cannot acquire eternal life by any of their own efforts. That has separated man from God. But God has provided a way back, but just one single way. That way is through faith in The Messiah, believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

You may be like some who Jesus is addressing in these verses.

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

What that is saying basically is, have you ever heard where some one learns something. Say a method of landscape oil painting, then they are exposed to a better way. Many times before they embrace this new way of painting and learn from it. They have to work out the old way of thinking from their old way of painting to be able to finally understand and see the new method.

In a way that is the case of many people they have been blinded by different theologies and can not see that God simply offers eternal life as a free gift to anyone who simply trust in The Messiah for this free gift. It is not about going to church or joining church or following some teachings of some denomination, etc... it is just like how this verse states.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Read the Gospel of John the only book in the Bible whose stated purpose for being written is to tell people how to have life (eternal life).

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
Well, I can only do my best.
Search for truth and understanding with an open mind and heart.

That's as good as it gets.

And if all that is actually true, at the right time and in the right way, you will receive what you are searching for.

There may be some things he wants to "put in place" first.

If Satan is stopping me from being convinced, then is it right for God to punish me?
Why doesn't God stop Satan from messing with people?
Is it because he can't (not powerful enough) or because he doesnt want to (perhaps he's busy?..)

TedT · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
P2) I am not convinced that this is sufficient proof of any gods (as arguments from design are all variations of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy).

C) I am not convinced by the appearance of the universe, that there are any gods.

Ordinary Christian Doctrine:
There is NO PROOF of the reality of GOD's being to humans on this earth without the express help from GOD to see it. None. Sin clouds the mind and corrupts all desires and decisions. To reject GOD then blame the lack of perception of HIM on HIM being a figment is par for the secular course.

Without HIS grace to give us faith there is no finding HIM even though we all saw the PROOF of HIS Divinity and Power (Rom 1:20) when HE created the physical universe before our very eyes and every person in creation sang HIS praises: Job 38:7!

What caused the secular world to lose sight of that truth? Read for yourself: Romans 1:18 to the end.

Blindwatchmaker · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
Jesus said, "Whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

But it can be changed.

What a horrible system.
God sets up humankind to be automatically condemned and then makes it so that most of them are never convinced by his existence.

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
What a horrible system.
God sets up humankind to be automatically condemned and then makes it so that most of them are never convinced by his existence.

I'm sure that's been said more than once over at the state prison, our justice system.

Blindwatchmaker · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
I'm sure that's been said more than once over at the state prison, our justice system.

You may be right.
But the justice system isn't being run by the most powerful entity in the universe who could do a much better job of it.

TedT · Mar 2, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
If you believe the earth has one moon by convincing evidence you cannot choose to believe the earth has two moons without convincing evidence.

What if you have NO PROOF but only the word of 3 men that have asked you to believe in something outside of your perceptual truth...

We can use our perceptions to see one moon and reject the two moon theory. But in a pre-physical existence with no physical properties, how do you choose to accept or reject one of the persons with you when they say "I am your creator GOD!"?

That is the crux of my Christian theology...we can only choose to believe in, accepting or rejecting, the result we HOPE it will be in our best interest with the most happiness forever.

Blindwatchmaker · Mar 2, 2021

TedT said:
What if you have NO PROOF but only the world of 3 men that have asked you to believe in something outside of your perceptual truth...

We can use our perceptions to see one moon and reject the two moon theory. But in a pre-physical existence with no physical properties, how do you choose to accept or reject one of the persons with you when they say "I am your creator GOD!"?

That is the crux of my Christian theology...we can only choose to believe in, accepting or rejecting, the result we HOPE it will be in our best interest with the most happiness forever.

But if I applied that standard I could believe in any claim from anyone.
What you're describing is wishful thinking not considered judgement of reality claims.
Do you think faith is a reliable path to truth?

If so, how do you explain the billions of people who believe other things than you by faith?

TedT · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
Well said.
Thank you Clare.
You are 100% right.

I and many like me do not have the ability to believe that which we do not find convincing.
Ironically, neither do you or anyone else.

I'm glad we got there.

You got there by totally ignoring common Christian doctrine then claim to have defeated it...<headshake...>

TedT · Mar 2, 2021

Blindwatchmaker said:
In that case, God is punishing ME for something Satan has done.
...
That surely cannot be ethical???

No it would not be ethical and thus we know it never happened. You are punished ONLY for the sins against HIM that YOU chose to by your free will though maybe feeling they were the right thing to do at the time.

Belief is not a choice

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