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Belief is not a choice

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Blindwatchmaker, Feb 28, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Now, you're on the heart of the matter.

    There is no way to get around God creating some for damnation.
     
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    What evidence would be more compelling than the existence of the "limitless" Universe, with all its consistent laws, with planet Earth and its majestic mountains, and all its amazing, beautiful, mind-boggling forms of life from sub-microscopic to the elephant, with beautiful colorful birds and flowers in between.

    It's not about lack of compelling evidence, it's about something else.
     
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Uh. . .yeah.

    I didn't make it (matter), I don't own it, and I don't get to make any rules.
     
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Uh. . .yeah.

    Why do your rules govern? Why not some other rules?
     
  5. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    Congrats on being the first here to admit that.
    People are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to suggest that God would not ALWAYS have known (even billions of years before they were born) who would believe and who not.

    If God has infinite knowledge (as per the God of classical theism) then he would have this information in advance.
    The question then becomes, how can one reconcile creating people for the purpose of punishing them for things over which they had no control, with the idea of a loving good god?
     
  6. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    That would be according his sinful creature's notion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  7. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    Well, the existence of the universe was clearly enough to convince you.
    Personally, I don't find if convincing at all.

    This is not obstinacy or hubris on my part.

    There are Muslims who point to verses in the Quran which they say offer undeniable proof of the existence of Allah as God.
    You presumably are unmoved by their claims in much the same way that I am by the claims of Christianity.
    Again, one is either convinced of a proposition, or one is not.
    There's no choice in the matter.
     
  8. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    You are conflating having an ethical opinion with making rules.
    They are not the same thing.

    Leaders are entitled to make the rules.
    It doesn't mean that their subjects lose the ability to make ethical judgements about them.
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Actually, it wasn't for me either.
    Like I said, that's because of something else, not because in actually it is not convincing.
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Didn't I ask you where you were headed with this mess? I'm honestly getting tired of listening to you go on, so make your point, please.
     
  11. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    My notions are the only ones I have.
    I also reject the notion of sin (but that's a separate discussion).
     
  12. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    Actually, I can prove with 100% certainty that it's not convincing to me:

    P1) There appears to be a physical universe (and I have seen it).

    P2) I am not convinced that this is sufficient proof of any gods (as arguments from design are all variations of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy).

    C) I am not convinced by the appearance of the universe, that there are any gods.
     
  13. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You are laying down the rules for what it takes to convince.

    I am showing a disposition against being convinced, demonstrated by the magnificence of the Universe and all that it involves not convincing you . . .anymore than it convinced me.

    The difference is I acknowledge the disposition that was against being convinced.
     
  14. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    Leaders are entitled to make the rules.
    It doesn't mean that their subjects lose the ability to make ethical judgements about them.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
    Clare,

    Honestly, please read my posts.
    I'm not making rules about what it takes to convince.
    I have already conceded that there are many many people who find the evidence convincing.
    I'm just saying I personally don't.
    There's literally nothing I can do about that. I'm just not convinced by any of it.
     
  15. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Therein lies the problem, your notions are limited to the ones you have, and your disposition allows no others.

    You need another disposition.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    I understand you completely.

    The issue is your disposition doesn't allow you to be convinced.

    You need a new disposition.
     
  17. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I have made it clear many times.

    You don't choose what you believe. You cannot choose to believe something is true without evidence which you are not convinced is true by evidence. If you believe the earth has one moon by convincing evidence you cannot choose to believe the earth has two moons without convincing evidence.
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    I agree it is 100% not convincing to you.

    It can't be with your current disposition, just like it can't be for everyone with the disposition with which they were born.
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Said the pot to the potter.
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    And that is the crux of the matter. . .ability to believe the evidence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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