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Belief is not a choice

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Blindwatchmaker, Feb 28, 2021.

  1. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    I'm not claiming to have defeated anything.
    I'm not even saying Christian doctrine is untrue (even though I happen not to believe).

    But it is still a fact that we don't CHOOSE our beliefs as Clare confirmed.
     
  2. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    No that's not right.

    My lack of belief is not a choice of action.
    It's a consequence of cognitive processes in my brain over which I have no control.
    We have a thing called neuroscience.
    We don't get to simply pretend it's not there when it reveals doctrinally inconvenient truths.
     
  3. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Since the Satanic destroyed their chance at an everlasting life by putting their faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god...I guess not. But it is what we have.

    The billions of other-believers are the many who miss the narrow gate who chose to put their faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god with no power over their lives and whose righteousness was corrupt.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  4. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    Yes yes.
    But you missed my point.
    I asked a question of epistemology.
    I was showing that it's very easy to end up believing false thing when we use faith.
    Many many people do.
    Question then becomes which application of faith if any is the right one?
    And do you use faith to answer that question too?
    It all becomes rather circular.
    That was the point.
     
  5. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    The answer is I don’t know until there is convincing evidence.
     
  6. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    You have not thought through how you know what is true. You are having too much fun playing games.
     
  7. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    EXACTLY!

    Yet the ones HE chose to be HIS Bride in heaven were those who said "I have no convincing evidence but I sure hope you are telling the truth over anything that every other contender for the job has given that I will choose you and your system, though maybe not perfectly in every aspect."

    Choosing with no convincing evidence is called faith / trust and (wouldn't you know it?) we are saved by an unproven faith, NOT by accepting PROOF! What you trust in is diametrically opposite what is asked and given by Christians...
     
  8. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    then why should I not put my faith in Allah?
     
  9. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    The idea that GOD's patience with a sinful elect runs out and they can end in hell is absurd. No one who can be save is not saved...or...everyone who can be saved will be saved!!


    Only those who have sinned the unforgivable sin and can
    therefore cannot be save are not saved. Period!

    Any other Christian doctrine about this falls short of HIS loving righteous justice and edges into blasphemy...
     
  10. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    With just what they chose before the creation of the world, a life without GOD.
     
  11. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    Faith is not trust. Trust is gained by knowledge, experience, and observation. Faith is, as you just said, believing something to be true with no convincing evidence. Christianity relies greatly on anecdotal evidence, and I consider that to be part of the "no convincing evidence" you mentioned.
     
  12. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    What a brutal and capricious theology.
    I could not follow or even respect a god that sets up millions of people to be punished in that way.
    Remember, not being convinced was not their choice.
     
  13. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    Exactly.
    This is the problem with faith.
    There's no reliable way to test one faith claim against another.
    Once you remove reason and evidence from the equation its a simple matter of luck whether or not your faith is pointing towards truth or fantasy.

    So all you can do is use reason as best you can to determining which faith claims are true.
    And then God punishes the people who get the wrong answer no matter how earnestly and honestly they tried.
     
  14. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A freethinker might say we believe in God on a whim, and if so, I would disagree that is preposterous.

    Now, show me where I said what you claimed.

    Also, what exactly is the point of the OP?
     
  15. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No games, just honest answers.
     
  16. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    Hi Kenny

    I think you're getting a little lost.

    I'm a freethinker and the entire point of this discussion is that I am saying the we DON'T form our beliefs on a whim.
    Our beliefs are NOT a matter of choice but rather are the results of processes in our brains which we don't actually control. This is the current consensus within both psychology and neuroscience.

    The reason this is important is that Christian doctrine tends to hold that God will judge people for their beliefs as it they were choices.

    You argued against this by saying you think beliefs ARE choices.
    When Clizby pushed back on your argument by pointing out that you can't simply CHOOSE to believe the Earth has two moons, you insisted that you can.
    Ie that on a whim you can change your beliefs.

    Hope that clarifies things?
     
  17. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    OK So honestly then (and bearing in mind your previous two posts)

    Can you or can you NOT choose your beliefs on a whim?
     
  18. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And I disagree, I think what you claim is preposterous, an oddball, and created conclusion that makes no sense.
     
  19. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can if I wish, but I would rather go with evidence.
     
  20. Blindwatchmaker

    Blindwatchmaker Member

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    It's not preposterous.
    It's simply how human brains work.
    You not liking it doesn't change the fact.
    Interestingly, you also have no choice at this point but to be unconvinced by it.
    If you do some study in psychology and neuroscience and take on some of the underlying facts then at that point you may become convinced, which would be another event over which you have no choice.
     
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