Belief is not a choice

[Blindwatchmaker]

You got there by totally ignoring common Christian doctrine then claim to have defeated it...<headshake...>

I'm not claiming to have defeated anything.
I'm not even saying Christian doctrine is untrue (even though I happen not to believe).

But it is still a fact that we don't CHOOSE our beliefs as Clare confirmed.

 

[Blindwatchmaker]

No it would not be ethical and thus we know it never happened. You are punished ONLY for the sins against HIM that YOU chose to by your free will though maybe feeling they were the right thing to do at the time.

No that's not right.

My lack of belief is not a choice of action.
It's a consequence of cognitive processes in my brain over which I have no control.
We have a thing called neuroscience.
We don't get to simply pretend it's not there when it reveals doctrinally inconvenient truths.

 

[TedT]

Do you think faith is a reliable path to truth?

If so, how do you explain the billions of people who believe other things than you by faith?

Since the Satanic destroyed their chance at an everlasting life by putting their faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god...I guess not. But it is what we have.

The billions of other-believers are the many who miss the narrow gate who chose to put their faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god with no power over their lives and whose righteousness was corrupt.

 

[Blindwatchmaker]

Since the Satanic destroyed their chance at an everlastin glife by putting their faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god...I guess not. But it is what we have.

The billions of other-believers are the many who miss the narrow gate who chose to put their faith in YHWH being a liar and a false god with no power over their lives and whose righteousness was corrupt.

Yes yes.
But you missed my point.
I asked a question of epistemology.
I was showing that it's very easy to end up believing false thing when we use faith.
Many many people do.
Question then becomes which application of faith if any is the right one?
And do you use faith to answer that question too?
It all becomes rather circular.
That was the point.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What if you have NO PROOF but only the word of 3 men that have asked you to believe in something outside of your perceptual truth...

We can use our perceptions to see one moon and reject the two moon theory. But in a pre-physical existence with no physical properties, how do you choose to accept or reject one of the persons with you when they say "I am your creator GOD!"?

That is the crux of my Christian theology...we can only choose to believe in, accepting or rejecting, the result we HOPE it will be in our best interest with the most happiness forever.

The answer is I don’t know until there is convincing evidence.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Lol

Then why were you trying so hard to convince me?

You have not thought through how you know what is true. You are having too much fun playing games.

 

[TedT]

The answer is I don’t know until there is convincing evidence.

EXACTLY!

Yet the ones HE chose to be HIS Bride in heaven were those who said "I have no convincing evidence but I sure hope you are telling the truth over anything that every other contender for the job has given that I will choose you and your system, though maybe not perfectly in every aspect."

Choosing with no convincing evidence is called faith / trust and (wouldn't you know it?) we are saved by an unproven faith, NOT by accepting PROOF! What you trust in is diametrically opposite what is asked and given by Christians...

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

EXACTLY!

Yet the ones HE chose to be HIS Bride in heaven were those who said "I have no convincing evidence but I sure hope you are telling the truth over anything that every other contender for the job has given that I will choose you and your system, though maybe not perfectly in every aspect."

Choosing with no convincing evidence is called faith / trust and (wouldn't you know it?) we are saved by an unproven faith, NOT by accepting PROOF! What you trust in is diametrically opposite what is asked and given by Christians...

then why should I not put my faith in Allah?

 

[TedT]

If I die of Covid next week before God has found time in his schedule to give me a new disposition which would suddenly have made everything convincing to me (despite finding the evidence decidedly underwhelming for decades), then what?

The idea that GOD's patience with a sinful elect runs out and they can end in hell is absurd. No one who can be save is not saved...or...everyone who can be saved will be saved!!


Only those who have sinned the unforgivable sin and can
therefore cannot be save are not saved. Period!

Any other Christian doctrine about this falls short of HIS loving righteous justice and edges into blasphemy...

 

[TedT]

Where does that leave the millions of people who died without belief in Christ?

With just what they chose before the creation of the world, a life without GOD.

 

[Par5]

EXACTLY!

Yet the ones HE chose to be HIS Bride in heaven were those who said "I have no convincing evidence but I sure hope you are telling the truth over anything that every other contender for the job has given that I will choose you and your system, though maybe not perfectly in every aspect."

Choosing with no convincing evidence is called faith / trust and (wouldn't you know it?) we are saved by an unproven faith, NOT by accepting PROOF! What you trust in is diametrically opposite what is asked and given by Christians...

Faith is not trust. Trust is gained by knowledge, experience, and observation. Faith is, as you just said, believing something to be true with no convincing evidence. Christianity relies greatly on anecdotal evidence, and I consider that to be part of the "no convincing evidence" you mentioned.

 

[Blindwatchmaker]

With just what they chose before the creation of the world, a life without GOD.

What a brutal and capricious theology.
I could not follow or even respect a god that sets up millions of people to be punished in that way.
Remember, not being convinced was not their choice.

 

[Blindwatchmaker]

then why should I not put my faith in Allah?

Exactly.
This is the problem with faith.
There's no reliable way to test one faith claim against another.
Once you remove reason and evidence from the equation its a simple matter of luck whether or not your faith is pointing towards truth or fantasy.

So all you can do is use reason as best you can to determining which faith claims are true.
And then God punishes the people who get the wrong answer no matter how earnestly and honestly they tried.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You said that you can decide to believe ANYTHING on a whim

A freethinker might say we believe in God on a whim, and if so, I would disagree that is preposterous.

Now, show me where I said what you claimed.

Also, what exactly is the point of the OP?

 

[Kenny'sID]

You have not thought through how you know what is true. You are having too much fun playing games.

No games, just honest answers.

 

[Blindwatchmaker]

A freethinker might say we believe in God on a whim, and if so, I would disagree that is preposterous.

Now, show me where I said what you claimed.

Also, what exactly is the point of the OP?

Hi Kenny

I think you're getting a little lost.

I'm a freethinker and the entire point of this discussion is that I am saying the we DON'T form our beliefs on a whim.
Our beliefs are NOT a matter of choice but rather are the results of processes in our brains which we don't actually control. This is the current consensus within both psychology and neuroscience.

The reason this is important is that Christian doctrine tends to hold that God will judge people for their beliefs as it they were choices.

You argued against this by saying you think beliefs ARE choices.
When Clizby pushed back on your argument by pointing out that you can't simply CHOOSE to believe the Earth has two moons, you insisted that you can.
Ie that on a whim you can change your beliefs.

Hope that clarifies things?

 

[Blindwatchmaker]

No games, just honest answers.

OK So honestly then (and bearing in mind your previous two posts)

Can you or can you NOT choose your beliefs on a whim?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I'm a freethinker and the entire point of this discussion is that I am saying the we DON'T form our beliefs on a whim.
Our beliefs are NOT a matter of choice but rather are the results of processes in our brains which we don't actually control. This is the current consensus within both psychology and neuroscience.

And I disagree, I think what you claim is preposterous, an oddball, and created conclusion that makes no sense.

 

[Kenny'sID]

OK So honestly then (and bearing in mind your previous two posts)

Can you or can you NOT choose your beliefs on a whim?

I can if I wish, but I would rather go with evidence.

 

[Blindwatchmaker]

And I disagree, I think what you claim is preposterous, an oddball, and created conclusion that makes no sense.

It's not preposterous.
It's simply how human brains work.
You not liking it doesn't change the fact.
Interestingly, you also have no choice at this point but to be unconvinced by it.
If you do some study in psychology and neuroscience and take on some of the underlying facts then at that point you may become convinced, which would be another event over which you have no choice.