Belief is not a choice

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But if God knows in advance who he will save, that means he also knows who he WONT save.
This means he is creating people with the express purpose of condemning them to Hell.
Why would a loving God do that?
Now, you're on the heart of the matter.

There is no way to get around God creating some for damnation.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: TedT
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It seems to me that a central principle of Christianity is that those who choose to accept Christ as their personal saviour gain access to Heaven whilst those that choose not to are punished or lose out in some way once their lives are over.

But this is based on a notion of belief which we now know to be false.
Believing a proposition is not a choice you make.
It's something that happens to you, not by you.

If you disagree, consider whether you are able right now, to believe that you have a diamond the size of a fridge buried in your garden. Or that your mother is a secret agent working for ISIS.

You are simply not at liberty to believe this, no matter how much you may want to. The only way your brain would accept the truth of the proposition is if you saw the diamond or caught your mother relaying information back to her ISIS contacts.
Then?....
Then you would have no CHOICE but to believe it.
Presented with compelling evidence we are forced to accept the truth of a claim and in the absence of it, we are unable to do so.
What evidence would be more compelling than the existence of the "limitless" Universe, with all its consistent laws, with planet Earth and its majestic mountains, and all its amazing, beautiful, mind-boggling forms of life from sub-microscopic to the elephant, with beautiful colorful birds and flowers in between.

It's not about lack of compelling evidence, it's about something else.
Everything we know about neuroscience supports this idea. There are neurological correlates to belief in a given proposition. And they are not voluntary.

With this in mind, it seems unreasonable for God to punish people who are simply not convinced of the claims of Christianity.

I have an open mind but I just don't find Christianity any more convincing than any other religion. It's not because I hate God, or want to sin or anything like that.
I have heard the claims and simply find myself unconvinced by them in exactly the same way as most people here are unconvinced by the claims of Scientology or Hinduism.

That's not a choice you made. Your brains just didn't buy what they were selling.

Given this understanding of the cognition of belief, what is the moral justification for punishing non-belief?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If I understand it correctly, your reply makes two points:

1) People are still choosing to dismiss the evidence because of the sunk cost fallacy and are therefore choosing their beliefs.

2) God is the author of all rules and is therefore entitled to punish anyone as he sees fit.

1) The sunk cost fallacy is a heuristic and people falling for it are still not choosing to be fooled by the fallacy. It may be a fault in their cognition but clearly if they believed they would act accordingly. It's still the case that the lack of belief is something that happens to them, not BY them.
2) Yes if God is all-powerful he can make whatever rules he wants. My question is whether or not that is moral. If you say that anything God does is moral by definition, then you are surrendering your ability to assess ethics with an independent mind.
Uh. . .yeah.

I didn't make it (matter), I don't own it, and I don't get to make any rules.
'Might' does not make right.
If God said we should kill all non virgin brides would that suddenly make it right?
You may answer that God would not do that, in which case God would be adhering to some other moral code.

To me, if there were an all-powerful being that chose to create me knowing I would not believe in him (due to lack of evidence and with God also knowing what evidence would be sufficient to convince me and choosing not to provide it) and then chose to punish me for eternity because I applied reason using the brain he gave me, then I would not worship or respect such a bully even if it turned out he did exist.
I would take my punishment knowing that I was on the ethical side of the issue.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The problem with that is that it sounds like special pleading.

If I understand you correctly, you're essentially saying that biblical claims should be subject to different rules
Uh. . .yeah.

Why do your rules govern? Why not some other rules?
concerning the assessment of their truth, to the ones everyone else has to play by.
That's a big ask and made without justification.

The problem is anyone could then do that.
I could invent a bunch of religious claims which crumble under logical or empirical scrutiny and then claim immunity by invoking my own personal set of epistemic standards.
But that would itself be a claim which needs justification.

I know we're getting pretty 'meta' here. But the claims of your faith are huge, and if true, VERY consequential so they should stand up to reasonable scrutiny.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TedT
Upvote 0

Blindwatchmaker

Active Member
Feb 28, 2021
106
27
52
Surrey
✟9,892.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Private
Now, you're on the heart of the matter.

There is no way to get around God creating some for damnation.
Congrats on being the first here to admit that.
People are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to suggest that God would not ALWAYS have known (even billions of years before they were born) who would believe and who not.

If God has infinite knowledge (as per the God of classical theism) then he would have this information in advance.
The question then becomes, how can one reconcile creating people for the purpose of punishing them for things over which they had no control, with the idea of a loving good god?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Congrats on being the first here to admit that.
People are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to suggest that God would not ALWAYS have known (even billions of years before they were born) who would believe and who not.

If God has infinite knowledge (as per the God of classical theism) then he would have this information in advance.
The question then becomes, how can one reconcile creating people for the purpose of punishing them for things over which they had no control, with the idea of a loving good god?
That would be according his sinful creature's notion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Blindwatchmaker

Active Member
Feb 28, 2021
106
27
52
Surrey
✟9,892.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Private
What evidence would be more compelling than the existence of the "limitless" Universe, with all its consistent laws, with planet Earth and its majestic mountains, and all its amazing, beautiful, mind-boggling forms of life from sub-microscopic to the elephant, with beautiful colorful birds and flowers in between.

It's not about lack of compelling evidence, it's about something else.

Well, the existence of the universe was clearly enough to convince you.
Personally, I don't find if convincing at all.

This is not obstinacy or hubris on my part.

There are Muslims who point to verses in the Quran which they say offer undeniable proof of the existence of Allah as God.
You presumably are unmoved by their claims in much the same way that I am by the claims of Christianity.
Again, one is either convinced of a proposition, or one is not.
There's no choice in the matter.
 
Upvote 0

Blindwatchmaker

Active Member
Feb 28, 2021
106
27
52
Surrey
✟9,892.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Private
Uh. . .yeah.

I didn't make it (matter), I don't own it, and I don't get to make any rules.

You are conflating having an ethical opinion with making rules.
They are not the same thing.

Leaders are entitled to make the rules.
It doesn't mean that their subjects lose the ability to make ethical judgements about them.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well, the existence of the universe was clearly enough to convince you.
Actually, it wasn't for me either.
Personally, I don't find if convincing at all.
Like I said, that's because of something else, not because in actually it is not convincing.
This is not obstinacy or hubris on my part.

There are Muslims who point to verses in the Quran which they say offer undeniable proof of the existence of Allah as God.
You presumably are unmoved by their claims in much the same way that I am by the claims of Christianity.
Again, one is either convinced of a proposition, or one is not.
There's no choice in the matter.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So you said that if you are convinced of one thing (earth has one moon) that you can choose to believe another contradictory things (earth has two moons) to be true.

Didn't I ask you where you were headed with this mess? I'm honestly getting tired of listening to you go on, so make your point, please.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Blindwatchmaker

Active Member
Feb 28, 2021
106
27
52
Surrey
✟9,892.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Private
Actually, it wasn't for me either

Like I said, that's because of something else, not because in actually it is not convincing.

Actually, I can prove with 100% certainty that it's not convincing to me:

P1) There appears to be a physical universe (and I have seen it).

P2) I am not convinced that this is sufficient proof of any gods (as arguments from design are all variations of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy).

C) I am not convinced by the appearance of the universe, that there are any gods.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You are conflating having an ethical opinion with making rules.
They are not the same thing.
You are laying down the rules for what it takes to convince.

I am showing a disposition against being convinced, demonstrated by the magnificence of the Universe and all that it involves not convincing you . . .anymore than it convinced me.

The difference is I acknowledge the disposition that was against being convinced.
Leaders are entitled to make the rules.
It doesn't mean that their subjects lose the ability to make ethical judgements about them.
 
Upvote 0

Blindwatchmaker

Active Member
Feb 28, 2021
106
27
52
Surrey
✟9,892.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Private
You are laying down the rules for what it takes to convince.

I am showing a disposition against being convinced, demonstrated by the magnificence of the Universe and all that it involves not convincing you. . . anymore than it convinced me.

The difference is I acknowledge the disposition that was against being convinced.
Leaders are entitled to make the rules.
It doesn't mean that their subjects lose the ability to make ethical judgements about them.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Clare,

Honestly, please read my posts.
I'm not making rules about what it takes to convince.
I have already conceded that there are many many people who find the evidence convincing.
I'm just saying I personally don't.
There's literally nothing I can do about that. I'm just not convinced by any of it.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
My notions are the only ones I have.
Therein lies the problem, your notions are limited to the ones you have, and your disposition allows no others.

You need another disposition.
I also reject the notion of sin (but that's a separate discussion).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Leaders are entitled to make the rules.
It doesn't mean that their subjects lose the ability to make ethical judgements about them.
Clare,
Honestly, please read my posts.
I'm not making rules about what it takes to convince.
I have already conceded that there are many many people who find the evidence convincing.
I'm just saying I personally don't.
There's literally nothing I can do about that. I'm just not convinced by any of it.
I understand you completely.

The issue is your disposition doesn't allow you to be convinced.

You need a new disposition.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
892
54
Texas
✟109,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Didn't I ask you where you were headed with this mess? I'm honestly getting tired of listening to you go on, so make your point, please.
I have made it clear many times.

You don't choose what you believe. You cannot choose to believe something is true without evidence which you are not convinced is true by evidence. If you believe the earth has one moon by convincing evidence you cannot choose to believe the earth has two moons without convincing evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Actually, I can prove with 100% certainty that it's not convincing to me:

P1) There appears to be a physical universe (and I have seen it).

P2) I am not convinced that this is sufficient proof of any gods (as arguments from design are all variations of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy).

C) I am not convinced by the appearance of the universe, that there are any gods.
I agree it is 100% not convincing to you.

It can't be with your current disposition, just like it can't be for everyone with the disposition with which they were born.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
lol ok.
Let's put our guns away and stop seeing who can pee higher up the wall.
We've clearly both read a few books.

Christianity in almost all its forms makes claims about the origin, purpose and moral rules of the universe. If those are not huge claims then nothing is a huge claim.

It remains the case (no matter how inconvenient) that our beliefs are primarily formed as consequences of cognitive processes over which we have little or no control (any such control would also be such a cognitive process.)

Neural correlates of believing - PubMed
The Neural Correlates of Religious and Nonreligious Belief

Any deity who punished people for inevitable cognitive processes would be nothing more than an evil bully and yet most Christians claim that God is just and loving.
Said the pot to the potter.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Belief in Christianity is like belief in daily life. The Bible presents evidence that, for example Jesus is the promised Messiah. If a person examines the accounts given in the Bible for this (that Jesus is the promised Messiah) then like any other believing of evidence presented at a trial (etc.) a person either believes the evidence or not.
And that is the crux of the matter. . .ability to believe the evidence.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0