Being Gay and Christian...is this possible?

[trek4fr]

but were no longer in the old testiment we are in the new and in this period of grace and mercy...

If I had a nickel for everytime that I have heard this excuse, I would be filthy rich by now.

Conservative Christians want to preach their condemnation of others , but they don't want to put their money where their mouths are . They claim that they are "under grace" and they go around quoting the Law.

As the apostle Paul said, if you're going to be under one part of the Law, you're going to be under the whole Law. You can't pick a prohibition and then claim you are "under grace" when it comes to the consequences of violating that prohibition.

If you really believe that the Old Testament is God's guidebook for living, then at least be honest and follow through. Don't just preach the prohibitions. Enact the judgments. When you do, let me know and I'll come and visit you in prison.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

If I had a nickel for everytime that I have heard this excuse, I would be filthy rich by now.

Conservative Christians want to preach their condemnation of others , but they don't want to put their money where their mouths are . They claim that they are "under grace" and they go around quoting the Law.

As the apostle Paul said, if you're going to be under one part of the Law, you're going to be under the whole Law. You can't pick a prohibition and then claim you are "under grace" when it comes to the consequences of violating that prohibition.

If you really believe that the Old Testament is God's guidebook for living, then at least be honest and follow through. Don't just preach the prohibitions. Enact the judgments. When you do, let me know and I'll come and visit you in prison.

were not under law but common sense would tell you if God didn't approve of worshiping idols then I think common sense would tell you He doesn't care for it now. somtimes it isn't about just following rules its just using the common sense God gave you.

 

[trek4fr]

were not under law but common sense would tell you if God didn't approve of worshiping idols then I think common sense would tell you He doesn't care for it now. somtimes it isn't about just following rules its just using the common sense God gave you.

I agree, TGIO, we need to use common sense (which I'm not too sure is that common any more). I'll be honest, I don't know how God really feels about homosexuality. I believe with all my heart that he loves homosexuals. But I simply don't think he is as maniacally obsessed with what people do in their bedrooms as most Christians seem to think he is.

But, using your own precept, if God didn't approve of garments woven of two different cloths, or of planting two different kinds of crops in one field, or of eating shellfish back then, does he still not approve of those things now? Why aren't conservative Christians ranting and raving over these other issues? Why aren't they saying that God destroyed New Orleans because the people there eat shellfish? Why aren't they saying that we have skin cancer as a punishment from God because we wear blended garments? Why aren't they saying that God is punishing the world with hunger because we plant different kinds of crops in one field?

And yet they pull out this one issue and say that we have AIDS because God is punishing homosexuals.

The truth of the matter, which conservatives will not face, is that there is no one standard for sex in the Bible. Sure, the Genesis story has God create man and woman. But God didn't seem to have a problem with polygamy in the OT, did he? And he, according to the text, told the Israelites to keep the virgins from the nations they conquerored as war-booty. And God stays silent as Lot (whom the Bible calls 'righteous') gives his two daughters up as sex toys to the crowd outside his door.

To me, the truth of the matter is that Conservative Christianity is in no way threatened by homosexuality. The divorce rate among Baptists is at about 50% and that has nothing to do with Baptists discovering that they are gay. It has more to do with marital affairs, inappropriate contentography, neglecting their families for the sake of church programs or climbing the money tree, and, IMO, their own warped view of sex. The homosexual issue is just an easy target. I'd like to know why they need this particular target when Jesus calls us to love all.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Just one small detail is missed, no where in scripture does it say shellfish eaters or those who mix fabrics will be denied entrance into the kingdom of God. On the other hand It has very clear scriptures making such claims not only about homosexuals but liars, and slanderers as well, so I would make the strongest suggestion possible to stop lying, stop slandering and if your practicing homosexual acts to stop them as well.

 

[trek4fr]

Just one small detail is missed, no where in scripture does it say shellfish eaters or those who mix fabrics will be denied entrance into the kingdom of God. On the other hand It has very clear scriptures making such claims not only about homosexuals but liars, and slanderers as well, so I would make the strongest suggestion possible to stop lying, stop slandering and if your practicing homosexual acts to stop them as well.

Where does Jesus, the Rock and Foundation of our Christian faith, say this?

 

[Jase]

Well if thats how you feel about it.......but were no longer in the old testiment we are in the new and in this period of grace and mercy we are given opportunity to repent and make changes. although we can't change the fact as to what God's opinions are regarding old testiment practices. God detested idol worship, can we now in this period of grace and mercy bow down and worship pagan idols and still believe we are secure in Christ? certainly many things God found detestable were for health reasons, I mean if you created something to clean the bottom the ocean and found people eating them you would be a bit grossed out EEWWW! why are you eating those things YUCK! same is true with homosexual behaviors....God created sex in a manner it would glorify Him and cause new life. Homosexuality does not and can not

You still inaccurately assume Leviticus is condemning modern day homosexuals.

Why did Philo, a Jewish contemporary of Paul, and expert on Mosaic Law and the Midrash, specifically state that Paul's message in Corinthians and Moses' message in Leviticus was referring to shrine prostitution to pagan gods?

Are you claiming you know better than an expert on Jewish law who actually witnessed first hand the use of those verses in context?

 

[Jase]

Just one small detail is missed, no where in scripture does it say shellfish eaters or those who mix fabrics will be denied entrance into the kingdom of God. On the other hand It has very clear scriptures making such claims not only about homosexuals but liars, and slanderers as well, so I would make the strongest suggestion possible to stop lying, stop slandering and if your practicing homosexual acts to stop them as well.

1 Corinthians never says homosexuals. That word was added in 1958 as an attack by conservative publishers on gay people.

If that verse was condeming gays, 1) Why did the entire world, including Martin Luther in the German Bible claim it referred to masturbators throughout the Reformation, and 2) Why did all of Paul's contemporaries, and everyone in Greek and Roman society claim it was Shrine prostitution?

Why you do so stubbornly cling to some 20th Century English translation that was proven to be a biased alteration?

 

[jpcedotal]

so Christians are now saying homosexuality is an acceptable practice of Christians? really?

 

[trek4fr]

Jpcedotal, what I'm saying, when it comes down to it, is that Christ, whom Christians claim to follow, didn't address this issue. So why be dogmatic on it?

My last thoughts on this (and there was much rejoicing):

Christians are, generally speaking, those who claim to believe in Christ and claim to follow him. Jesus stressed that it was those who obeyed his teaching that were his true disciples, not those who merely called him 'Lord.' If this is true, and if we claim to follow Christ, then our focus should be upon what he taught, not upon what he did not teach. And what he taught, it seems to me, comes down to loving God and loving others.

I, for one, try to follow Jesus. I don't follow Moses. I don't follow Paul. If Christianity insists that being a homosexual automatically sends a person to hell, then I don't adhere to that kind of Christianity. Why? Because, in that instance, Christianity is trying to supercede Christ himself, to add something into its religion that Jesus never mentioned.

It seems to me that if this were as big an issue as some Christians make it out to be, then Christ himself would have addressed it. But he didn't. Therefore, I don't see why some Christians make their soapbox something that Jesus never took a stand on.

In closing, I think it would be good to ask ourselves if Jesus was known for creating and shoring up social and religious boundaries or for breaking them down. The Law forbade fellowship with sinners. Jesus had no problem with it. The Law forbade touching dead things. Not only did Jesus touch them, but, according to the scriptures, he even raised them back to life. The Law forbade touching a menstruating woman. Jesus not only touched them, but healed them. The Law demanded that adulterers be stoned. He told the woman caught in adultery that he wouldn't condemn her. The Law said that God's people should kill their enemies. Jesus said that God's people should love their enemies and even do good to them.

When Christianity doesn't care about Jesus' teachings and Christians don't want to be Christ-like, it's no wonder the world calls us a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites.

Thanks to all for listening. I'm moving on.

 

[Jase]

so Christians are now saying homosexuality is an acceptable practice of Christians? really?

We're saying the original scriptures do not discuss modern day homosexuals.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

so Christians are now saying homosexuality is an acceptable practice of Christians? really?

Hmm i dunno, i see divorced and remarried pastors . what do you say about that?

 

[revanneosl]

so Christians are now saying homosexuality is an acceptable practice of Christians? really?

Not so much "now" as "for the past 60 years or so."

 

[meliagaunt]

Why do people get so worked up about this issue? Why should it become the line in the sand for so many? Why should it be something that threatens to split the Anglican/Episcopal Communion, and maybe other denominations? When we Christians so evidently fail God in so many ways, such as failing in the things Jesus mentions in Matthew 25:35-36, why is this the issue that seems to produce more anger than any other?

 

[revanneosl]

Fear, mostly.

 

[Jase]

Why do people get so worked up about this issue? Why should it become the line in the sand for so many? Why should it be something that threatens to split the Anglican/Episcopal Communion, and maybe other denominations? When we Christians so evidently fail God in so many ways, such as failing in the things Jesus mentions in Matthew 25:35-36, why is this the issue that seems to produce more anger than any other?

Well, for the gay community it's obviously very personal. It's a very very hard thing to grow up gay. Feeling different, being bullied and abused in school for being a sissy. Having attractions you can't understand while everyone around you seems "normal" with girlfriends, dates, etc. Many many parents reject gay children and kick them out (hence why 50% of homeless teens are gay).

But to then have the majority of the population tell you you made a choice to be disgusting, an abomination, a spawn of Satan, mentally ill, unnatural, deviant, etc. etc., all while claiming to still "love" you, just makes the whole thing worse.

Most Christians will never know what it's like to be gay, bisexual, or transgendered, so it's an easy target to nitpick about their sins. Most of them don't understand sexual orientation anyway, so they merely think of sexual acts some gays do and pride parades, and associate that behavior with all gays. Our Macho driven society finds the idea of 2 men being affectionate to be very gross and unmanly, hence why gay men take the brunt of the stigma (straight guys find lesbians hot).

So they start with already having the prejudicial view that gays are deviant and disgusting, and then, in order to morally justify that view in the eyes of God, they take butchered scriptural verses and say "See, God hates you too!"

When we look at other sins, however, like fornication, divorce, adultery, obesity, greed, etc., Christians are by far the biggest committers of those sins, so they aren't willing to judge themselves in the mirror.

That's all it comes down. A macho society that views gay guys as gross, and since most people aren't faced with that challenge it's an easy target.

 

[Phenbert]

I think it all comes down to whether or not you consider homosexuality a sin. I would define a sin as anything that goes against the natural laws as laid down by God. It has been found that various animal species engage in homosexual activity. Animals are not subject to sin. It therefore seems reasonable to conclude that homosexual activity although rare is not completely unnatural. Why would God allow such activity in animals if he wasn’t in some way comfortable with the idea?

 

[Jase]

I think it all comes down to whether or not you consider homosexuality a sin. I would define a sin as anything that goes against the natural laws as laid down by God. It has been found that various animal species engage in homosexual activity. Animals are not subject to sin. It therefore seems reasonable to conclude that homosexual activity although rare is not completely unnatural. Why would God allow such activity in animals if he wasn’t in some way comfortable with the idea?

I agree with you, however, as a little nitpick, homosexuality is not that rare in animals. At least 500 species have homosexuals in them (like penguins, giraffes, etc.) and I've even heard some species have more homosexual members than heterosexuals.

It's relatively uncommon in humans, however, due to evolutionary benefits it seems to be a bit more common in other animals.

The only arguments I've heard against animals is sin made them gay, or animals also eat their young, so being gay is still inappropiate for humans. Although most who believe that also don't believe humans are animals.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I agree with you, however, as a little nitpick, homosexuality is not that rare in animals. At least 500 species have homosexuals in them (like penguins, giraffes, etc.) and I've even heard some species have more homosexual members than heterosexuals.

It's relatively uncommon in humans, however, due to evolutionary benefits it seems to be a bit more common in other animals.

The only arguments I've heard against animals is sin made them gay, or animals also eat their young, so being gay is still inappropiate for humans. Although most who believe that also don't believe humans are animals.

I have never liked the argument of "hey look animals do it to" animals are not remotely like us. Animals are not moral agents, we however are.

 

[lux et lex]

I have never liked the argument of "hey look animals do it to" animals are not remotely like us. Animals are not moral agents, we however are.

But...we are animals.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

But...we are animals.

We are moral agents, something that no other creature on this world has. Animals run on pure instinct, we are however moral agents, and that is a big separator.