Being filled with the Holy Spirit vs tongues

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The true "evidence" of being born again of the Spirit is a drastically changed life. We are dead to sin and not in the flesh but in the Spirit. That is a Christian. However, you are wrong in assuming that not everyone who believes can speak in tongues for prayer TO God. Mark 16:16-18 shows us the signs following those who are believers. What is not universal is the gift of diverse kinds of tongues receiving messages FROM God that MUST be interpreted. Those are for use to the church as a whole.

I was going to church for the first 30 years of my life without receiving the Holy Spirit. But when I truly repented from sin, I was finally filled with the Spirit, and experience that drastic change with signs and wonders following. Many in the church have never truly repented from sin and will always struggle with their flesh. They are not Christians, and Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you."

If you look on others with the view of judgment and condemnation, then it is no surprise that you see others in the church the way you do. You may get a shock that others in the church, who may be into the same judgment and condemnation, may think the same about you.

This is because that by the same measure that you judge others, you will be judged by the same measure. But if you change your words from the judgment and condemnation to grace and power, you will find that as you treat others in the church with grace, then others will treat you the same way.

If you are judging others and saying that they will not be known by Christ, how do you know that you will not suffer the same fate?

 

[Hillsage]

I need clarity on this one; i have heard many pastors in my church asking us to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit. They also say that the evidence of this in-filling is speaking in tongues. I have searched scriptures and don't find the two connected. Every time this is taught, I get frustrated because it seems not to line up with scripture.
Speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit according to 1 Cor 12.
Why is this taught in churches? Is baptism with the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues? What about those who don't speak in tongues, are they not baptized?
Am I missing something here?

As always Loyce, these threads digress into the 'haves' and 'have nots' debate that is never ending and is never reconciled to the totality of scripture. I have a position which doesn't agree totally with the beliefs of either side scripturally. But to enter into an conversation here is always just an exercise in the never ending futility of the thinking of both bar ditch positions.

I will have you know this about me. I do speak in tongues, and have since 6 months after coming to a born-again salvation experience in 1972.

I would be happy to discuss this topic 'one on one' with you, if you're interested just PM me.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This sounds great, but what about addicts? What about people who truly try to repent, but don't have the strength to because of their addictions combined with depression that weakens them further. Will their change be obvious?

This is why God is the judge of a man's salvation and not other men.

Only God can see the heart. Some of the most moral people I've known were also the most self righteous and judgemental- who loved telling their wonderful testimony. In fact they could talk about themselves all day.

While on the other hand the most sinful were the most humble. They knew they didn't have the strength themselves to overcome sin, and instead were patiently waiting for God to save them from it.

What was it Paul said?

Romans 7:15-20
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


Does that sound like someone perfect? Or someone still struggling with their flesh?

All morality is pointless unless there is humility first. Pride was the first sin, and it the first that must be overcome.

I think we need a grace-based attitude and approach to others. If we take a judgment/condemnation approach, even to those we see in absolute sin, we are blocking their way to the very Person who can save them and get them out of the quicksand they are in.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't think you understand what an addiction is then

My daughter became addicted to codeine, and it was when I decided to take a grace-based approach to her and decided to do nothing but support and encourage her with positive comments about her, that she kicked her addition through a methadone programme in seven months, and the pharmacist said that this was a miracle because people don't get off their additions that fast. I think that my grace-based approach to her gave her the determination and faith to beat the addiction.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No, the Baptism WITH the Spirit is a separate experience.

What! Two separate transformations? The examples in Acts showed that conversion and the baptism with the Spirit happened at the same time! It is illogical to say that a person is entirely transformed at conversion, and then entirely transformed again later on. Doesn't make sense.

The truth is that the transformation happens once - conversion and the baptism with the Spirit happen at the same time.

 

[☦Marius☦]

My daughter became addicted to codeine, and it was when I decided to take a grace-based approach to her and decided to do nothing but support and encourage her with positive comments about her, that she kicked her addition through a methadone programme in seven months, and the pharmacist said that this was a miracle because people don't get off their additions that fast. I think that my grace-based approach to her gave her the determination and faith to beat the addiction.

It sounds like we are arguing for the same thing?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It sounds like we are arguing for the same thing?

Yep. I'm acknowledging that you are totally correct in what you are saying about addiction. When my daughter was in rehab, my wife and I went to the monthly "family" days, where we were given teaching on the nature of addiction and the issues around it. It was a great learning experience. We saw the transformation of our daughter from a clinically depressed codeine addict to a positive, resourceful person with a future.

 

[1stcenturylady]

If you look on others with the view of judgment and condemnation, then it is no surprise that you see others in the church the way you do. You may get a shock that others in the church, who may be into the same judgment and condemnation, may think the same about you.

This is because that by the same measure that you judge others, you will be judged by the same measure. But if you change your words from the judgment and condemnation to grace and power, you will find that as you treat others in the church with grace, then others will treat you the same way.

If you are judging others and saying that they will not be known by Christ, how do you know that you will not suffer the same fate?

I'm judging no one, merely reporting what Scripture claims. Many are not free because they love the darkness, their addiction, more than Christ. He will not allow idols, and addictions are idols.

 

[Pethesedzao]

What! Two separate transformations? The examples in Acts showed that conversion and the baptism with the Spirit happened at the same time! It is illogical to say that a person is entirely transformed at conversion, and then entirely transformed again later on. Doesn't make sense.

The truth is that the transformation happens once - conversion and the baptism with the Spirit happen at the same time.

If that is so why aren't more believers speaking with new tongues??

 

[Loyce KG]

Praise God! He has filled you with His Holy Spirit by discerning this gift! Your right, it is not scriptural. It is one of the gifts. This is a Pentecostal doctrine and not really shared by many Evangelicals. If you remain a Pentecostal eventually you will have to "cave in" to this belief and most certainly end up faking the gift. It is unfortunate but it is the one contentious issue within this denomination that separates them from the rest of the Charismatics.
Blessings

I love the ministry in my church especially when we reach out to widows and orphans but I feel starved of in-depth biblical truth. I was at church today for an evening of prayer and once the pastor told us to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues, my spirit disconnected and I left the gathering. I am bothered by the kind of worship that is mostly sensational with mood lights, dark auditoriums, loud instruments and little reverence of God from the heart. The worship team is engrossed in appearing like the world (in dress code etc). I don't mean to sound judgemental but my spirit craves for true worship from the heart. Perhaps, God is telling me something. I just don't know of any other churches that are biblical without being overtly sensational in my localty. I would gladly join a much smaller church based on the old truths of the Bible in every operation. Searching the scriptures has opened my eyes to the errors even within my church. It is a Christian church for sure, but probably hyper-sensational for me.
Pray for me.

 

[Loyce KG]

Good for you for "searching the scriptures" like a Berean! Can I just say as an aside that this is one of the best ways to grow in your love of God and His word? By digging into scripture on a topic of interest you become an encouragement to others since you can point them to life-giving truth.

Reading Ephesians 1:3-14 (focusing on 13 and 14), Titus 3:3-7, and 1 Corinthians 6:11, you get the picture that the Father, Son and Spirit have all been involved in the plan and process of redemption and adoption in God's family. 1 Corinthians 12 is a focus passage on the continuing work of the Spirit in unifying and providing for the church. Whether you believe tongues are still active or not, they are never given pride of place and (as another poster noted) Paul downplays any preference to that particular gift. Christianity IS the work and relationships of the Trinity to each other, each individual believer, and the whole family of God. Unless you are born of the Spirit you are not a Spiritual person. Once you Have been born of the Spirit you are permanently sealed with the Spirit as a guarantee of the promised inheritance: eternal life.

Instead of getting frustrated with pastors and others who are mistaken here (although it does have some consequences if people focus on this inordinately), spend some time in your study of the topic rejoicing in the reality of the Spirit's work in your life:

• John 3:6-8 - He was the one who first breathed life into you, giving birth to the New You
• John 14:15-21 - He is sent by the Son to permanently help, comfort, and teach
• John 16:7-11 - He partners with you by preparing people to hear the good news about Jesus. There is no such thing as a "cold call" when sharing the Good News, because the Spirit goes before you.
• Ephesians 1:13-14 - The guarantee and downpayment of our inheritance
• Galatians 5:19-26 - the New Spiritual Fruit that is evidence of the life of God inside you
• Romans 8:26 - the Spirit's care for us, helping us when we don't know what to ask of the Father
• 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 - the Spirit teaches and reveals to us God's thoughts through the Word that He inspired (2 Peter 1:21)

By the way, you'll notice that none of those passages spoken by the Lord Jesus or the disciples mention tongues as the main benefit of the Spirit. Tongues are a gift to be used for the advancement of the kingdom (Acts 2 -"in our own languages") not as a personal assurance of salvation, just like teaching, administration, prophecy, etc.) This is why Paul (in 1 Cor. 14) de-emphasizes tongues. 1 Cor. 12:30 is a rhetorical question whose answers is "no".[/QUOTE
Thank you so much. That was mature, informative and uplifting.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I love the ministry in my church especially when we reach out to widows and orphans but I feel starved of in-depth biblical truth. I was at church today for an evening of prayer and once the pastor told us to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues, my spirit disconnected and I left the gathering. I am bothered by the kind of worship that is mostly sensational with mood lights, dark auditoriums, loud instruments and little reverence of God from the heart. The worship team is engrossed in appearing like the world (in dress code etc). I don't mean to sound judgemental but my spirit craves for true worship from the heart. Perhaps, God is telling me something. I just don't know of any other churches that are biblical without being overtly sensational in my localty. I would gladly join a much smaller church based on the old truths of the Bible in every operation. Searching the scriptures has opened my eyes to the errors even within my church. It is a Christian church for sure, but probably hyper-sensational for me.
Pray for me.

You really are a treasure to God!
Blessings

 

[☦Marius☦]

I am bothered by the kind of worship that is mostly sensational with mood lights, dark auditoriums, loud instruments and little reverence of God from the heart.

You should be. Sensationalist worship is all about the world. It is a deception. If you look at old chants and hymns they were much more concerned with teaching about Christ and the scripture and actual awe inspired worship fit for a king then just entertaining the youth. Europe had the same style chant for like 1600 years and suddenly it's in fashion to copy whatever kind of secular music style is popular and just make it "Christian".

True worship is in peaceful silent prayer and contemplation. That is where the holy spirit is.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I need clarity on this one; i have heard many pastors in my church asking us to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit. They also say that the evidence of this in-filling is speaking in tongues. I have searched scriptures and don't find the two connected. Every time this is taught, I get frustrated because it seems not to line up with scripture.
Speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit according to 1 Cor 12.
Why is this taught in churches? Is baptism with the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues? What about those who don't speak in tongues, are they not baptized?
Am I missing something here?

You're right, they aren't connected. Glossolalia, or speaking in tongues, is one of the many gifts of the Holy Spirit, and there is a diversity of gifts. Not all speak in tongues, St. Paul is super clear on this (1 Corinthians 12:30).

We receive the Holy Spirit as per the promise of God in Scripture, e.g. Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" The gift here is the Holy Spirit Himself. All who have been baptized have received the Holy Spirit.

There are two key places in Scripture, which seem to get radically misunderstood, where we find the Holy Spirit poured out, and upon this pouring out there is speaking in tongues. The first is on Pentecost, as recorded in Acts ch. 2; the other time is in Acts ch. 10 in the household of Cornelius the centurion. These events are special, because these are the fulfillment of what St. John the Baptist said, "the One who comes after Me, the One whose sandals I am unfit to tie, He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire"; the same as Jesus Himself says in Acts ch. 1.

We find other places where the Apostles laid hands on people and they received the Holy Spirit, such as among the Samaritans, and with the disciples of John the Baptist (in Acts ch. 19).

Speaking in tongues is never mentioned as the evidence of having the Holy Spirit, instead the promise of the Holy Spirit is attached to Baptism and Chrismation (Chrismation is the ancient, historic term for the laying on of hands and consecrating with oil that was traditionally part of the Baptismal Rite). All who belong to Christ have received the Holy Spirit, in full, regardless of whether they have ever spoken in tongues or not. There is no second blessing, or further initiation to be had; a Christian has received everything as pure gift from God by His grace, in full, and can be confident in God's promises both now and until the Last Day.

Going further, we should read what the Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 14, namely that the purpose of the gift of tongues is not as a sign for the believing, but the unbelieving. The Apostle quotes the Prophet Isaiah, "For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people, to whom he has said, 'This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose'; yet they would not hear." (Isaiah 28:11-12); the speaking in tongues is a sign for the unbelieving, specifically unbelieving Israel, for they would not hear God's word. For through His Son He has given rest to the weary, and yet they would not receive it.

Tongues-speech is not a special sign that one has received the Spirit, it is one of many, many different gifts for the Church. This particular gift was for the purpose of demonstrating the disobedience and obstinance of an unbelieving people, and without interpretation it does nothing to benefit the Church (1 Corinthians 14:14).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm judging no one, merely reporting what Scripture claims. Many are not free because they love the darkness, their addiction, more than Christ. He will not allow idols, and addictions are idols.

I agree entirely. But these indicate that they are afflicted with the disease of sin. If we look at sin in this way, then the Scripture "By His stripes we have been healed" becomes very significant.

If we treat sin as a disease, then we are going to treat it as any other disease - with grace and compassion.

The problem with the treatment of sin by many professing Christians is to see sinners from a judgmental and condemning point of view, rather than seeing sin as a disease treatable by the blood of Jesus.

Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it. In the same way, He did not send the Holy Spirit into the church to judge and condemn sinners. The Holy Spirit came to point sinners to Jesus who is the great Healer of sin and sickness.

If we are judgmental toward the sinners you have described, then the Spirit is quenched, and the way to Jesus is blocked. But treating sinners and hypocrites with grace, releases the power of the Holy Spirit to heal them and make them right with God.

We are all sinners, and therefore the measure in which we judge others, God will use that same measure to judge us. We can use the Bible as the basis of our judgment of others, but God will also use the Bible to judge us.

But if we use the Bible to show the grace, mercy and love of God to sinners and hypocrites, then when it comes to God dealing with us, He will use the same Bible to show His grace, mercy and love toward us.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I agree entirely. But these indicate that they are afflicted with the disease of sin. If we look at sin in this way, then the Scripture "By His stripes we have been healed" becomes very significant.

If we treat sin as a disease, then we are going to treat it as any other disease - with grace and compassion.

The problem with the treatment of sin by many professing Christians is to see sinners from a judgmental and condemning point of view, rather than seeing sin as a disease treatable by the blood of Jesus.

Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save it. In the same way, He did not send the Holy Spirit into the church to judge and condemn sinners. The Holy Spirit came to point sinners to Jesus who is the great Healer of sin and sickness.

If we are judgmental toward the sinners you have described, then the Spirit is quenched, and the way to Jesus is blocked. But treating sinners and hypocrites with grace, releases the power of the Holy Spirit to heal them and make them right with God.

We are all sinners, and therefore the measure in which we judge others, God will use that same measure to judge us. We can use the Bible as the basis of our judgment of others, but God will also use the Bible to judge us.

But if we use the Bible to show the grace, mercy and love of God to sinners and hypocrites, then when it comes to God dealing with us, He will use the same Bible to show His grace, mercy and love toward us.

I am not judging anybody, but this is the second post in a row that you are judging me.

 

[Pethesedzao]

I love the ministry in my church especially when we reach out to widows and orphans but I feel starved of in-depth biblical truth. I was at church today for an evening of prayer and once the pastor told us to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues, my spirit disconnected and I left the gathering. I am bothered by the kind of worship that is mostly sensational with mood lights, dark auditoriums, loud instruments and little reverence of God from the heart. The worship team is engrossed in appearing like the world (in dress code etc). I don't mean to sound judgemental but my spirit craves for true worship from the heart. Perhaps, God is telling me something. I just don't know of any other churches that are biblical without being overtly sensational in my localty. I would gladly join a much smaller church based on the old truths of the Bible in every operation. Searching the scriptures has opened my eyes to the errors even within my church. It is a Christian church for sure, but probably hyper-sensational for me.
Pray for me.

The Church was born on the Day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit was sent by Jesus to baptize those in the upper room where they got born again and received the Gift of Tongues.

 

[Sam81]

Everything in the early church is meant as a reflection of the established church, just as the new testament is a reflection of the old.

Taking up serpents doesn't mean picking up snakes .. drinking poison doesn't mean actually drinking poison ..they symbolize dominion over evil and our ability to be exposed to it without it effecting us. Tongues likely symbolized that believers will end up speaking differently than how they used to speak.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not judging anybody, but this is the second post in a row that you are judging me.

What I am saying is that it is a problem in the church - that too many are erring on the side of judgment and condemnation when they see Christians sinning.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not judging anybody, but this is the second post in a row that you are judging me.

What I took issue was your comment that those who struggle with the flesh are condemned. Paul had struggles with his flesh. He said that the flesh wars against the Spirit. He also said that nothing good dwelt in him, that is in his flesh.

We all have struggles with the flesh. But our flesh is reckoned dead by God, and the moment we use 1 John 1:9, the particular fault that came with the struggle with the flesh is gone. God has forgotten it as soon as it is confessed. "Your sins and iniquities I will remember no more." Right up to the time a sin is confessed, all previous sins are totally forgotten by God. His grace has overruled His omnicience in this regard.

When we look at a person who is struggling with the flesh and view them with condemnation, this could be an affront to the grace of God, because we have no way of knowing what that person is telling God about their struggle.

Genuinely converted Christians, although have struggles with the flesh and they hate themselves for it, they do not walk in the flesh, neither do they fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is what Scripture says. It is not said as a requirement but the condition of a genuinely converted Christian. The Scripture does not say "they should not walk in the flesh", but that "they do not walk in the flesh".

Other than what you said, I am not judging you personally. I was just responding to what you said which implied that most, if not all believers, who actually struggle with the flesh at times, are condemned. You may not have meant it that way.

I will also say that judgment/condemnation is the norm in many churches, and Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are well known for it.