Being filled with the Holy Spirit vs tongues

[Hillsage]

Here we have a dichotomy. You are saying someone can be saved without the Holy Spirit, and Romans 8:9 says they must have the Holy Spirit to be saved.

I have no dichotomy because that verse says NOTHING about the Holy Spirit. It just says 'Spirit' all three times. You 'assume' it's the Holy Spirit because modern day scribes capitalized spirit all three times. There was no capitalization in the Greek justifying capitalization for any reason other than the indoctrination of modern 'scribes'. But it is spelled out as being the spirit of Christ the third time mentioned in that one verse. And it is the same "spirit" that is being spoken of all three times, in the context of that verse. And that "spirit" isn't the Holy Spirit of God in Jesus. It is the spirit of Christ which Jesus yielded up to the Father. And in every translation of 'that verse' the yielded 'spirit' is NEVER capitalized. Translators have great inconsistency concerning this issue as I've said for years here.

ROM 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

The only spirit of/FROM God in A BELIEVER is the spirit of Christ. Even as I proved in post #339....with absolutely no one refuting anything I said. So read Rom 8:9 without the capitals and realize that 'the truth is' there's a difference between the 'spirit of Christ' and the 'Holy Spirit of God'. SO, no dichotomy with my theology because my theology has sought the 'jewel of consistency' way better than the carnal minded theology of orthodoxy today IMO.

All born again of the Spirit are given the authorities and abilities of Mark 16:16-18. These are just for the individual believer, and just as the whole armor of God is given to all individual believers, part of the whole armor is praying in the Spirit, Ephesians 6:18.

All born again FROM the Holy Spirit receive a holy born again spirit of the man within them. That's what Jesus told Nicodemus.

JOH 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You didn't receive the Holy Spirit of God at the rebirth of your spirit. You received a holy spirit, and that spirit was the spirit of Christ in you. The same "spirit" which was in the Jesus on the Cross. We have the same "spirit of Christ" in us which Jesus had IN him. And it is that "spirit of Christ" which makes US one with the many membered 'body of Christ'. Jesus the Christ himself being the 'head' and 'cornerstone' of that BODY singular.

There is, however, more fillings of the Holy Spirit that you may be confusing with this initial one in Acts 2, that are for ministry in the Church Acts 4:29-31. Those are listed in 1 Corinthians 12 and are not given to all who believe, 1 Corinthians 12:30.

No confusion on my part.

Tell me SCRIPTURALLY when did Jesus get the Holy Spirit? And was it poured INTO him or UPON him? I'll quote my verses first and then you can scripturally respond with.....nothing, I'm betting.

MAT 12:18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him,
LUK 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove,
LUK 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
JOH 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have no dichotomy because that verse says NOTHING about the Holy Spirit. It just says 'Spirit' all three times. You 'assume' it's the Holy Spirit because modern day scribes capitalized spirit all three times. There was no capitalization in the Greek justifying capitalization for any reason other than the indoctrination of modern 'scribes'. But it is spelled out as being the spirit of Christ the third time mentioned in that one verse. And it is the same "spirit" that is being spoken of all three times, in the context of that verse. And that "spirit" isn't the Holy Spirit of God in Jesus. It is the spirit of Christ which Jesus yielded up to the Father. And in every translation of 'that verse' the yielded 'spirit' is NEVER capitalized. Translators have great inconsistency concerning this issue as I've said for years here.

ROM 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

The only spirit of/FROM God in A BELIEVER is the spirit of Christ. Even as I proved in post #339....with absolutely no one refuting anything I said. So read Rom 8:9 without the capitals and realize that 'the truth is' there's a difference between the 'spirit of Christ' and the 'Holy Spirit of God'. SO, no dichotomy with my theology because my theology has sought the 'jewel of consistency' way better than the carnal minded theology of orthodoxy today IMO.

All born again FROM the Holy Spirit receive a holy born again spirit of the man within them. That's what Jesus told Nicodemus.

JOH 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You didn't receive the Holy Spirit of God at the rebirth of your spirit. You received a holy spirit, and that spirit was the spirit of Christ in you. The same "spirit" which was in the Jesus on the Cross. We have the same "spirit of Christ" in us which Jesus had IN him. And it is that "spirit of Christ" which makes US one with the many membered 'body of Christ'. Jesus the Christ himself being the 'head' and 'cornerstone' of that BODY singular.

No confusion on my part.

Tell me SCRIPTURALLY when did Jesus get the Holy Spirit? And was it poured INTO him or UPON him? I'll quote my verses first and then you can scripturally respond with.....nothing, I'm betting.

MAT 12:18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him,
LUK 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove,
LUK 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
JOH 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Actually Romans 8:9 has the whole Trinity. Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Then why is this verse in 'the bible'?

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

The Torah they had was in error 3,000 years ago. So how did it become 'perfect' in the eyes of the church of today?

Hillsage, I think I'm not catching the point you are making. Are you questioning Paul's 2nd Letter to Timothy, particularly 2 Tim 3:16-17, as being inaccurate and false, based on Jeremiah 8:8?

How can you believe the Scriptures at all, if you believe there wasn't a true copy then? There were less controls over NT Scripture than there were on OT Scripture. So, if you accept that the OT that we have is false, then how do you justify believing anything?

In addition, why didn't Jesus say that OT was falsified? He sure seemed to accept that it was written about Him and that all needed to be fulfilled. That doesn't seem like the same view that Jeremiah had. Maybe Jer 8:8 refers to something that was being done at the time, but doesn't reflect the true copy which was still present.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Philip the Evangelist is the father of water baptism adherents.

What on earth does that mean? Are you cutting down someone used mightily of God, in Scripture, now? Please tell me that you weren't.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Actually Romans 8:9 has the whole Trinity. Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ.

I disagree with you on this. Romans 8:9 just expresses the Holy Spirit in three different ways.

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you." So at this point, he had been talking to them about being carnally minded and spiritually minded. Then he transitions to the carnal mind being "in the flesh". But, he says that you aren't in the flesh, but in the Spirit--IF the Spirit of God actually has taken up residence in you.

"Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." This is simply reiterating that if you don't have the Holy Spirit, you aren't Jesus'.

If you break that verse into three Spirits, you make it possible to have one or two without the other(s), when in actuality it is ALL OR NONE.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Baptism WITH the Spirit is a separate experience.

What scripture supports that though?

 

[YeshuaFan]

I agree. But there are additional fillings for additional gifts for the profit of all, not just for the believer as in Mark 16:16-18, but for the profit of the Church in 1 Corinthians 12.

Understand?

The Church was given those gifts in the time when the Apostles were still alive, and there were real prophets also that could judge the utterances being made, but now have the more sure word of the scriptures, so the Holy Spirit reserves himself to speaking thru them directly today!

 

[YeshuaFan]

All who are born again of the Spirit are the ones that are saved. That IS the baptism of the Spirit. But there are more fillings for gifts, and more fillings for additional gifts. 1 Corinthians 14:39. You have been taught a denominational theory, but without the Spirit, no one is saved.

If the Charismatics would just hold to tongues being a gift for some, but not for all, that there is no second act of grace evidenced by tongues, , but that all are to be refilled by Holy Spirit, would be much closer to the truth!

 

[Hillsage]

Actually Romans 8:9 has the whole Trinity. Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ.

Boy, I'll just buckle and fold with a scriptural backed comeback such as you just pummeled me with.......NOT!

 

[1stcenturylady]

I disagree with you on this. Romans 8:9 just expresses the Holy Spirit in three different ways.

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you." So at this point, he had been talking to them about being carnally minded and spiritually minded. Then he transitions to the carnal mind being "in the flesh". But, he says that you aren't in the flesh, but in the Spirit--IF the Spirit of God actually has taken up residence in you.

"Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." This is simply reiterating that if you don't have the Holy Spirit, you aren't Jesus'.

If you break that verse into three Spirits, you make it possible to have one or two without the other(s), when in actuality it is ALL OR NONE.

The Trinity is one.

 

[1stcenturylady]

If the Charismatics would just hold to tongues being a gift for some, but not for all, that there is no second act of grace evidenced by tongues, , but that all are to be refilled by Holy Spirit, would be much closer to the truth!

How can we when Mark 16:16-18 shows that these signs follow those who believe. It doesn't say some of those who believe. You've been taught those are for the apostles. It is only when you get to 1 Corinthians 12 do we find that different gifts are given to different people for the profit of all. Those are for the Church.

I know you can't get your head around this, but that is because of what you've been taught for possibly decades. Only the Spirit can break down that wall. It's not my job.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Boy, I'll just buckle and fold with a scriptural backed comeback such as you just pummeled me with.......NOT!

Hillsage, I've seen you on an arrogant rampage with everyone. You might want to check yourself against the fruit of the Spirit to see what you might lack.

Jesus had the seed of the Father - which made him sinless - 1 John 3:9. But for his ministry he received the Holy Spirit for power gifts. We are born again of the Spirit; yes, I disagree with your theory about Romans 8:9 seeing as the chapter is about the Holy Spirit, and as in Mark 16:16-18 can speak in tongues, as well as not willfully sin because we have received the seed of the Father - the Spirit, which makes us dead to sin. But for ministry we must receive additional fillings as Jesus did when he was baptized, before He did his first miracle.

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage, I think I'm not catching the point you are making. Are you questioning Paul's 2nd Letter to Timothy, particularly 2 Tim 3:16-17, as being inaccurate and false, based on Jeremiah 8:8?

No, I'm not questioning that verse, I'm explaining it for the same reason you have argued for, with TO BE LOVED. I'm saying the bible is not the 'perfect to come' because the bible has error and is not perfect, just like there was even error in the day of Jeremiah....THAT'S WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS IN JER 8. So if that verse is wrong....there's error in the bible. And if that verse shouldn't be in the bible...there's error in the bible. RIGHT? So don't refute me, refute the SCRIPTURE I just shared. DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE OR NOT? For me, I love the bible more than any book there is, and I prove that here over and over. I know/love the bible, but I don't worship it.

How can you believe the Scriptures at all, if you believe there wasn't a true copy then? There were less controls over NT Scripture than there were on OT Scripture. So, if you accept that the OT that we have is false, then how do you justify believing anything?

Just as I have come to be as UNORTHODOX as I am, is how I have come to trust what I now believe. I believe the bible when I look past the false teachings of carnal minded men and find a view which answers both sides of arguments which have divided the church for centuries.

JOH 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Does this mean I believe I'm perfectly led of the Spirit? NO, it doesn't. But I came to FORUMS like this years ago just to see if my heretical POV could stand up to the views of orthodoxy, and I'm still here, after 15 online years, looking to be disproved.

In addition, why didn't Jesus say that OT was falsified? He sure seemed to accept that it was written about Him and that all needed to be fulfilled. That doesn't seem like the same view that Jeremiah had. Maybe Jer 8:8 refers to something that was being done at the time, but doesn't reflect the true copy which was still present.

So are you now arguing that the bible is perfect now????? I thought I was confirming your argument against 'To BE LOVED' and now you are beating the same drum and arguing his position with me?????? Why didn't Jesus say the OT is perfect? Show me that verse.

I love the bible about God, but I don't worship it. The church has succumbed to the IDOL of BIBLIOLOTRY.....Yes, look it up, it is a word.

A LOT of what I share on CF came from studying way more than those who just go to seminary to get their brains washed by religion. Religious men I agree, but carnal minded theology which disagrees with every other denomination out there. ALL saying "We just believe the BIBLE." It is a problem.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I have no dichotomy because that verse says NOTHING about the Holy Spirit. It just says 'Spirit' all three times. You 'assume' it's the Holy Spirit because modern day scribes capitalized spirit all three times. There was no capitalization in the Greek justifying capitalization for any reason other than the indoctrination of modern 'scribes'. But it is spelled out as being the spirit of Christ the third time mentioned in that one verse. And it is the same "spirit" that is being spoken of all three times, in the context of that verse. And that "spirit" isn't the Holy Spirit of God in Jesus. It is the spirit of Christ which Jesus yielded up to the Father. And in every translation of 'that verse' the yielded 'spirit' is NEVER capitalized. Translators have great inconsistency concerning this issue as I've said for years here.

ROM 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

The only spirit of/FROM God in A BELIEVER is the spirit of Christ. Even as I proved in post #339....with absolutely no one refuting anything I said. So read Rom 8:9 without the capitals and realize that 'the truth is' there's a difference between the 'spirit of Christ' and the 'Holy Spirit of God'. SO, no dichotomy with my theology because my theology has sought the 'jewel of consistency' way better than the carnal minded theology of orthodoxy today IMO.

All born again FROM the Holy Spirit receive a holy born again spirit of the man within them. That's what Jesus told Nicodemus.

JOH 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You didn't receive the Holy Spirit of God at the rebirth of your spirit. You received a holy spirit, and that spirit was the spirit of Christ in you. The same "spirit" which was in the Jesus on the Cross. We have the same "spirit of Christ" in us which Jesus had IN him. And it is that "spirit of Christ" which makes US one with the many membered 'body of Christ'. Jesus the Christ himself being the 'head' and 'cornerstone' of that BODY singular.

No confusion on my part.

Tell me SCRIPTURALLY when did Jesus get the Holy Spirit? And was it poured INTO him or UPON him? I'll quote my verses first and then you can scripturally respond with.....nothing, I'm betting.

MAT 12:18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him,
LUK 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove,
LUK 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
JOH 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

"The Same is He which baptizes with the Holy Ghost." So, how can you say that people aren't baptized with the Holy Ghost, but are simply given a holy spirit? I don't see the bigger picture of what you are trying to say here. It isn't some theology I bought into, apart from God leading me that capitalizes that S in Romans 8:9, each of the three times. Frankly, I think Scripture writers got it wrong that they don't. I don't have the time to read or address every post that isn't addressed to me, so I didn't get to read post #339, in order to disagree with you.

 

[Saint Steven]

The problem is those who spoke in biblical tongues understood what they were saying. Those who think they speak in tongues today do not know what they are saying.

For what purpose is the gift of the interpretation of tongues, if the tongues speakers know what they are saying?

1 Corinthians 14:13
For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

No, I'm not questioning that verse, I'm explaining it for the same reason you have argued for, with TO BE LOVED. I'm saying the bible is not the 'perfect to come' because the bible has error and is not perfect, just like there was even error in the day of Jeremiah....THAT'S WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS IN JER 8. So if that verse is wrong....there's error in the bible. And if that verse shouldn't be in the bible...there's error in the bible. RIGHT? So don't refute me, refute the SCRIPTURE I just shared. DO YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE OR NOT? For me, I love the bible more than any book there is, and I prove that here over and over. I know/love the bible, but I don't worship it.


Just as I have come to be as UNORTHODOX as I am, is how I have come to trust what I now believe. I believe the bible when I look past the false teachings of carnal minded men and find a view which answers both sides of arguments which have divided the church for centuries.

JOH 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Does this mean I believe I'm perfectly led of the Spirit? NO, it doesn't. But I came to FORUMS like this years ago just to see if my heretical POV could stand up to the views of orthodoxy, and I'm still here, after 15 online years, looking to be disproved.


So are you now arguing that the bible is perfect now????? I thought I was confirming your argument against 'To BE LOVED' and now you are beating the same drum and arguing his position with me?????? Why didn't Jesus say the OT is perfect? Show me that verse.

I love the bible about God, but I don't worship it. The church has succumbed to the IDOL of BIBLIOLOTRY.....Yes, look it up, it is a word.

A LOT of what I share on CF came from studying way more than those who just go to seminary to get their brains washed by religion. Religious men I agree, but carnal minded theology which disagrees with every other denomination out there. ALL saying "We just believe the BIBLE." It is a problem.

I argue that the Bible ISN'T the "perfect" in the "when that which is perfect has come" sense. I argue that, because if it was, we would all know as perfectly/fully as we are known (no secrets, no misunderstood mysteries, nothing unknown), so we wouldn't even need knowledge, let alone tongues or prophesy. I don't know anyone who knows as fully as they are known.

I would argue that the Bible was God's Testimony to us and it contains things that aren't true, but were honestly reported by God as part of His Testimony. Jesus did say: "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Matt 7:13) which certainly supports what God said through Jeremiah in Jer 8:8.

I would agree with this article, though I don't agree with everything this group says.

Who were the scribes that often argued with Jesus?

The Scribes added man-made traditions to their interpretations of the Scriptures that Jesus disputed and I believe that is what Jer 8:8 refers to. But, I don't think Jer 8:8 means God's Scriptures were compromised. If that was the case, then we wouldn't have anything we could stand on.

 

[Saint Steven]

I need clarity on this one; i have heard many pastors in my church asking us to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit. They also say that the evidence of this in-filling is speaking in tongues. I have searched scriptures and don't find the two connected. Every time this is taught, I get frustrated because it seems not to line up with scripture.
Speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit according to 1 Cor 12.
Why is this taught in churches? Is baptism with the Holy Spirit evidenced by tongues? What about those who don't speak in tongues, are they not baptized?
Am I missing something here?

I struggled with this as well.

I understand why they are saying that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, but I question whether that is always the case. If I recall correctly, in three cases in the book of Acts others signs were present as well. We are not told whether everyone spoke in tongues or whether some had other manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Like prophecy and praising God, even tongues of fire (flames) on them.

Ultimately, I agree that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience to salvation. However I believe we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an enduement of power to manifest the spiritual gifts, like tongues.

And to be clear about tongues. There is more then one kind. I have identified at least five different kinds. Listed below. The gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12 is #3 below.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage, I've seen you on an arrogant rampage with everyone. You might want to check yourself against the fruit of the Spirit to see what you might lack.

How about I'll enjoy my ASSURANCE in what I believe and have proven to be what I believe is the truth, and you enjoy the ARROGANCE of believing and defending what I believe to be a lie.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The Spirit only fell in Jerusalem, they had to lay hands on the Samaritans for it to go there. But how is that proof seeing as the Holy Spirit fell on them, but nothing is written that they spoke in tongues?

What do you say happened in Acts 10 with Cornelius? Peter didn't lay hands. "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." (Acts 10:44) Those with Peter and Peter recognized this as God pouring out the girt of the Holy Ghost on the gentiles (Acts 10:45) Then, they were baptized.

 

[Hillsage]

"The Same is He which baptizes with the Holy Ghost." So, how can you say that people aren't baptized with the Holy Ghost, but are simply given a holy spirit?

I know those are deep water teachings J4C. I can only say, buy the book Word Studies on the Holy Spirit by EW Bullinger if you really want to plumb the depths. It was written over a hundred years ago and is still being printed. I will just share a Forward written in that book. A book which I bought over 20 years ago;

"FORWARD The emphasis in recent years on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit has helped to produce a great number of books on that subject. Some of these books are immature and will not last. Their theology (to borrow a phrase from P.T. Forsyth) is “like a bad photograph-over-exposed and under-developed.” But a few books have made a definite contribution to the subject and will surely last. Word Studies on the Holy Spirit is one of the older works that has had a steady ministry and is sure to last.
WARREN W. WIERSBE"

[FYI Warren Wiersbe was born 1929, a former pastor of Moody Church as well as an author of over 160 books]
I will warn you, this isn't a cookie eater's book. You'll have to put on your 'big boy/girl pants' to get through it, I believe.

And I'm going to share one short summarizing paragraph to give you just a peek at where I've been led to come from, in this 200 page book. Read the following sentence; Oh, that's a nasty cut you have, the doctor is in his office, let's have him doctor it up for you.

Which 'doctor' in this sentence is a person and which doctor is an action FROM that person? It is the presence of a 'definite article', the word THE. In a Greek Interlinear bible you read a literal translation of the Greek sentences above, and all he English worded sentences of an English translation below it. You will find that the transliterated 'GREEK worded sentence', which is above the KJV sentence below it, that the translators ADD a the in brackets [the], changing the sentence to mean the person of the Holy Spirit, when it always meant action/power released FROM the Holy Spirit. Bullinger's book, as well as his KJV Companion Study Bible, (which is also still in print after a hundred years) both state that translators capitalized the word holy spirit or spirit INCORRECTLY 52 times in the New Testament. That my brother has led to a whole lot of the dumb theology that the 'spiritually gifted' tongue talkers have, as well as the "ungifted" non tongue talkers. That's why I challenge both sides when I believe they're wrong. And the harder they fight to defend what I USED TO ALSO BELIEVE and had to re-think through, the harder I slap back. Just like Jesus slapped the religious pharisees of his day who thought they knew better than Jesus. Am I Jesus? NO! Am I trying to offend? No, I'm trying to enlighten. Do I intentionally try to offend? No! Do they intentionally take an offense? All the time.

I don't see the bigger picture of what you are trying to say here. It isn't some theology I bought into, apart from God leading me that capitalizes that S in Romans 8:9, each of the three times.

When I was 20 years old in the Lord, I'd have said the same thing you just said. All I can say is, you have maintained an attitude of disagreement with me that I respect. So far anyway.

Frankly, I think Scripture writers got it wrong that they don't. I don't have the time to read or address every post that isn't addressed to me, so I didn't get to read post #339, in order to disagree with you.

I understand your dilemma. It is mine also. I skip over many posts here too. Usually I do so because I've already gone around with them many times in the past. They run every time they can't win but they never change when they come back. And, as you've seen, I also won't line up with everyone on 'our side', and agree to back them, just because it's 'our doctrinal POV against theirs'. Let US be iron sharpening iron and not sparks flying from swords. I do try to pursue peace with all men first, even as I believe you and I still have.