Being filled with the Holy Spirit vs tongues

[ToBeLoved]

The same Spirit is alive and well today as He was 2000 years ago, and we are in the same covenant. Nothing inside a covenant ceases until the covenant, itself, ceases.

UNless scripture says “tongues will cease”.

Are you denying that is in scripture?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

UNless scripture says “tongues will cease”.

Are you denying that is in scripture?

It does say tongues will cease when that which is perfect comes--when we will know as fully as we are known. At that point, there will be no purpose for tongues, prophesy, words of knowledge, and any other revelatory gift I might be missing, because we will know as fully as we are known.

"Charity never fails; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; But, when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Can you honestly say we know as fully as we are known--even face to face? If not, there is no reason for you to believe the revelatory gifts to have ceased yet. If you do believe you do, you are as wrong as I would be if I were to make such a ludicrous claim.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It does say tongues will cease when that which is perfect comes--when we will know as fully as we are known. At that point, there will be no purpose for tongues, prophesy, words of knowledge, and any other revelatory gift I might be missing, because we will know as fully as we are known.

"Charity never fails; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; But, when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Can you honestly say we know as fully as we are known--even face to face? If not, there is no reason for you to believe the revelatory gifts to have ceased yet. If you do believe you do, you are as wrong as I would be if I were to make such a ludicrous claim.

So God’s Word is not perfect and given by God?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

When I got hurt and disillusioned with my Charismatic church and walked away from it, not wanting to remain in the Pentecostal movement, and went and joined an Anglican church, much of what I was taught in the Pentecostal church went by the board as well. But, interestingly, I didn't stop praying in tongues, neither did I want to, and I never have, even though I spent years in Baptist churches and as an elder in the Presbyterian church.

This shows me that the ability to pray and speak in tongues that I have did not come from the Pentecostal church, although it was there that I learned about it. I didn't receive it in the first place in a church service. It was on my bed in the hostel where I was living and in the middle of a week day. When I received the revelation of the reality of God two years later, I still kept praying in tongues.

When I did go through a time when I seriously doubted whether tongues was real, and I asked God about it, He replied, "Why do you think I devoted a whole chapter of My Bible to give correct teaching on it if I didn't mean for people to be able to use it, then and now?" He left me in no doubt that tongues was not just a Pentecostal thing, but it was the ordinary ability of every new covenant believer. Since that time, I have absolutely no doubts about the tongues that I use to pray and speak are totally genuine.

If people choose not to use the ability, that's their business. But to go around saying that those who use the ability are in error and false, that is entirely another matter. These people are in danger of insulting and grieving the Holy Spirit and they will pay the price for that.

In my experience, I could never turn my back on the Holy Spirit and His gifts. It is just not in me. I have been through thick and thin in my life and nothing has happened to me to such an extent that I have ever felt unfairly treated by the Lord, even though I have felt that way in regard to churches. God is not the church and the church is not God, and the gifts that I have been given were not given by a church, but from God, and although I can walk away from a church, God still knows the way I take and He continues to walk with me.

I think that is the attitude of any genuinely converted believer.

I think visible church hurt is just part of the territory that an overcomer has to overcome. But, church hurt is a whole lot more likely where genuine gifts are being practiced, because where real life is the enemy has the most to lose. Before God woke me up, I never had to be worried about being hurt in a church. Since, He woke me up, I seem to have a bullseye on me, wherever I go. God has a beautiful plan and we get to participate in Jesus' cup of suffering. Yay, God! (although honestly it doesn't usually feel that great!) Probably why the Apostles went back and prayed for boldness to continue to do what they knew was right in the face of nonstop persecution. We, too, have persecution and, sadly, it often comes from people who claim to be on the same team.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So God’s Word is not perfect and given by God?

Really? Okay, I'll play. Prove to me through Scripture that the Bible is perfect and complete--not just for the purpose it was given--but fully revelatory so we know as fully as we are known and have no need of anything else?

Because here is the deal: If tongues ceased, then knowledge vanished away, and real prophecies fail. If prophesies that are still in Scripture haven't been fulfilled, then they fail--meaning, you no longer have a hope that there is something better coming. Welcome to your heaven!

Scripture again:

"Charity never fails; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; But, when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

[Hillsage]

Mark 16:16-18 - SIGN of tongues - individual - all who believe.

“ALL who believe...and are saved and baptized”; is the contex of Mark 16. So do you believe everyone who is saved and water baptized, but without the baptism from the Holy Spirit can speak in sign tongues? I don’t.

1 Corinthians 12 - GIFT of tongues - few - to the church.

He is saying that the Gift of 1 Corinthians 12 is only for a few. Like an office such as apostle, prophet, teacher. He is using the right terminology, so I understand what he is saying and agree with you both.

At least, I assume that is also what you are saying.

Now I disagree with him AND you also; The office gifts are not Holy Spirit gifts/charisma, they are Jesus gifts/doma.

EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts/doma unto men.....11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

But back to the Holy Spirit charisma/gifts. All who have received initial SIGN tongues at the baptism from the Holy Spirit, are qualified to manifest ALL the Holy Spirit's gifts, including the "GIFT of tongues" from the Holy Spirit. And the 'SIGN' tongues from our spirit is not the same. So if he's saying only FEW have the “GIFT of tongues”, FROM the Holy Spirit, we differ.

I don't believe anyone who's received the baptism FROM the Holy Spirit has 'Any gifts’. They are never 'our gifts', they are gifts/manifestations FROM the Holy Spirit. And all His manifesting GIFTS are meant for whoever is receiving that “Gift” FROM the Spirit. And they are not manifested at 'our will' but by the Holy Spirits will (1Cor 12:11).

The only 'singular thing’, we ‘SIGN tongues’ speakers ALL have, is the Holy Spirit FROM whom all gifts flow. I know that for me personally, and the 1Cor 12 list of GIFTS, I have manifested 8 of those 9 gifts. But they were never 'my gifts'.

Charismatics look like idiots to the "ungifted/(idiotes Greek)" believers when we say "I have the gift of healing", because someone got healed by the 'Gift of Healing' FROM the Holy Spirit when I prayed for them. A 'gift of healing' which was manifested THROUGH us, and given to the person who needed the gift of healing. But it was never ‘Ours’.

The "ungifted" of today, rightfully tell us that if 'we have the gift of healing', to go empty the hospitals'.... AND THEY ARE RIGHT. No Charismatic can do that. Our errors of theology need to be cleaned up too.

If I still look 'silly' then it's time to stop, because the two of us are not on the same plane of understanding that the two of you are.

 

[Hillsage]

So God’s Word is not perfect and given by God?

Yes it is, if you mean the present tense "EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD". But you don't, you mean 'the bible' and there is no verse to support that POV.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

"proceeds/ekporeuomai"
Part of speech: Verb
Tense: PRESENT
voice: middle or passive depoNent
Mood: participle
Case: Dative
Number: Singular
Gender: Neuter

Today's stale bread of the 200 differing written bible translations and 2000 different NT translations is not the perfect word that proceeds from the mouth of God. But unfortunately it's usually only the sheep that hear 'that word' from God, when He speaks.

It's a bit of a dilemma I know, but especially for the fundamentals. The pastor of the Baptist church we left last year said FROM THE PULPIT in a SERMON; "The Holy Spirit does not talk to anyone, He directs them to the bible." And yet this same pastor believes he was CALLED of God to be a Pastor!!!!...HELLO.

OH CONSISTENCY THOU ART A JEWELL TO BE SOUGHT FOR in the age of great apostasy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes it is, if you mean the present tense "EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD". But you don't, you mean 'the bible' and there is no verse to support that POV.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

"proceeds/ekporeuomai"
Part of speech: Verb
Tense: PRESENT
voice: middle or passive depoNent
Mood: participle
Case: Dative
Number: Singular
Gender: Neuter

Today's stale bread of the 200 differing written bible translations and 2000 different NT translations is not the perfect word that proceeds from the mouth of God. But unfortunately it's usually only the sheep hear 'that word' from God when He speaks.

It's a bit of a dilemma I know, but especially for the fundamentals. The pastor of the Baptist church we left last year said FROM THE PULPIT in a SERMON; "The Holy Spirit does not talk too anyone, He directs them to the bible." And yet this same pastor believes he was CALLED of God to be a Pastor!!!!...HELLO.

OH CONSISTENCY THOU ART A JEWELL TO BE SOUGHT FOR in the age of great apostasy.

What about 2 Timothy?

I have no idea why your thinking Matthew 4:4

 

[Hillsage]

What about 2 Timothy?

The missing word you used, would be "PERFECT" instead of just profitable IMO.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
And that which is written today was certainly not inspired by God to be hundreds and thousands of different translations. That was my point also.

I have no idea why your thinking Matthew 4:4

Sorry, I don't know how to make cookies out of meat. Maybe someone else can help in that department for you.

 

[Pethesedzao]

Prove it.

Peter and John in Samaria, Paul and Silas in Ephesus

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

It's a bit of a dilemma I know, but especially for the fundamentals. The pastor of the Baptist church we left last year said FROM THE PULPIT in a SERMON; "The Holy Spirit does not talk too anyone, He directs them to the bible." And yet this same pastor believes he was CALLED of God to be a Pastor!!!!...HELLO.

OH CONSISTENCY THOU ART A JEWELL TO BE SOUGHT FOR in the age of great apostasy.

The double-talk is so sad, because until they get to that point where the lack of consistency comes to the forefront, they can actually confuse a lot of people with their bad logic--simply because a lot of people lack the experience with God to realize there is more than they are being told. Too many are misled that running up to the altar and claiming to give their heart to Jesus means they actually did. Then they live the way they always lived, having supposedly added Jesus on, and don't even care (or know, because of Scriptural ignorance) that their life looks nothing like the lives of those in the Scriptures.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

What about 2 Timothy?

I have no idea why your thinking Matthew 4:4

Which verse(s) lead you to think that 2 Timothy says God's Scriptures contained in the Bible are the "that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face; now I [*reminder this is Paul speaking, the same Apostle that wrote to Timothy] know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (I Cor 13:10,12)

Paul learned directly from Jesus Christ Himself post resurrection, according to Paul's testimony in Scripture and he still claimed "we know in part".

Surely, you aren't talking about 2 Tim 3:16-7, right? Because it doesn't say that. Here is what those verses say:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-7)

There is nothing untrue in that Scripture; but it certainly doesn't say "that which is perfect has come" that will invalidate the need for the revelatory gifts with the Scripture they had to that point. Scholarly guesses put Paul's 2nd letter at AD 67, meaning it is likely before most Gospel accounts, 2nd Peter, all of John's writings, Hebrews, and Revelation.

You can't be referring to 2 Tim 2:16, because Paul goes on to list two violators and why he called their stuff "profane and vain babblings" [he wasn't referring to tongues like you would hope]. Read 2 Tim 2:18: "Who concerned the Truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."

Maybe you were referring to "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (2 Tim 3:5) But, that would seem to apply more to us turning away from those who claim that God's power isn't available today, now wouldn't it?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Peter and John in Samaria, Paul and Silas in Ephesus

The Spirit only fell in Jerusalem, they had to lay hands on the Samaritans for it to go there. But how is that proof seeing as the Holy Spirit fell on them, but nothing is written that they spoke in tongues?

Ephesus met some of John the Baptist believers. They were believers in Christ, but not baptized into Christ, so when they were, Paul laid hand on them and the Holy Spirit came to them too, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

If you are going to make such a damning statement about me, especially since I've been defending you over and over, you might actually prove when I'm in such "grave" error.

 

[1stcenturylady]

“ALL who believe...and are saved and baptized”; is the contex of Mark 16. So do you believe everyone who is saved and water baptized, but without the baptism from the Holy Spirit can speak in sign tongues? I don’t.

Here we have a dichotomy. You are saying someone can be saved without the Holy Spirit, and Romans 8:9 says they must have the Holy Spirit to be saved.

All born again of the Spirit are given the authorities and abilities of Mark 16:16-18. These are just for the individual believer, and just as the whole armor of God is given to all individual believers, part of the whole armor is praying in the Spirit, Ephesians 6:18.

There is, however, more fillings of the Holy Spirit that you may be confusing with this initial one in Acts 2, that are for ministry in the Church Acts 4:29-31. Those are listed in 1 Corinthians 12 and are not given to all who believe, 1 Corinthians 12:30.

 

[Hillsage]

There is nothing untrue in that Scripture; but it certainly doesn't say "that which is perfect has come" that will invalidate the need for the revelatory gifts with the Scripture they had to that point. Scholarly guesses put Paul's 2nd letter at AD 67, meaning it is likely before most Gospel accounts, 2nd Peter, all of John's writings, Hebrews, and Revelation.

Then why is this verse in 'the bible'?

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

The Torah they had was in error 3,000 years ago. So how did it become 'perfect' in the eyes of the church of today?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Here we have a dichotomy. You are saying someone can be saved without the Holy Spirit, and Romans 8:9 says they must have the Holy Spirit to be saved.

All born again of the Spirit are given the authorities and abilities of Mark 16:16-18. These are just for the individual believer, and just as the whole armor of God is given to all individual believers, part of the whole armor is praying in the Spirit, Ephesians 6:18.

There is, however, more fillings of the Holy Spirit that you may be confusing with this initial one in Acts 2, that are for ministry in the Church Acts 4:29-31. Those are listed in 1 Corinthians 12 and are not given to all who believe, 1 Corinthians 12:30.

There is but ONE baptism in the Holy Spirit in the NT, one described by Paul, which happens to ALL saved, as the Spirit placed them into the Body once saved!

 

[Pethesedzao]

The Spirit only fell in Jerusalem, they had to lay hands on the Samaritans for it to go there. But how is that proof seeing as the Holy Spirit fell on them, but nothing is written that they spoke in tongues?

Ephesus met some of John the Baptist believers. They were believers in Christ, but not baptized into Christ, so when they were, Paul laid hand on them and the Holy Spirit came to them too, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

If you are going to make such a damning statement about me, especially since I've been defending you over and over, you might actually prove when I'm in such "grave" error.

Baptism WITH the Spirit is a separate experience.

 

[Pethesedzao]

Peter and John in Samaria, Paul and Silas in Ephesus

Philip the Evangelist is the father of water baptism adherents.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Baptism WITH the Spirit is a separate experience.

All who are born again of the Spirit are the ones that are saved. That IS the baptism of the Spirit. But there are more fillings for gifts, and more fillings for additional gifts. 1 Corinthians 14:39. You have been taught a denominational theory, but without the Spirit, no one is saved.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is but ONE baptism in the Holy Spirit in the NT, one described by Paul, which happens to ALL saved, as the Spirit placed them into the Body once saved!

I agree. But there are additional fillings for additional gifts for the profit of all, not just for the believer as in Mark 16:16-18, but for the profit of the Church in 1 Corinthians 12.

Understand?