Behold, I come as a thief!

[BABerean2]

Thanks but I don't need to buy any dvd.

If you know the recent history of modern Dispensational Theology, then good for you.

I was once in a church body that taught the doctrine, but nobody bothered to tell those sitting in the pews that John Nelson Darby brought the doctrine to America about the time of the Civil War.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Genesis of Dispensational Theology

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[Micah888]

Do you expect to see Him with your physical eyes? Do you believe your physical body will fly in the air?

Don't you? and doesn't the Bible say exactly that?

Christians will indeed see Jesus with their eyes, and they will be more than flying -- they will be *translated* in the blink of an eye.

...when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5)

Strong's Concordance
metatithémi: to transfer, change
Transliteration: metatithémi
Short Definition: changed

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from meta and tithémi
Definition
to transfer, change

NASB Translation
changed (1), deserting* (1), removed (1), taken (1), took (1), turn (1).

 

[RaymondG]

Don't you? and doesn't the Bible say exactly that?

Christians will indeed see Jesus with their eyes, and they will be more than flying -- they will be *translated* in the blink of an eye.

...when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5)

Strong's Concordance
metatithémi: to transfer, change
Transliteration: metatithémi
Short Definition: changed

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from meta and tithémi
Definition
to transfer, change

NASB Translation
changed (1), deserting* (1), removed (1), taken (1), took (1), turn (1).

Whatever you believe happens.....it must happen in your life time......Just like Enoch. Jesus will be seen with your eye. Not your eyes. Those who have an ear, Hear.

To those without, all things are done in parable. Why? So that seeing they will not see and hearing they will not hear....lest they be healed and converted.

He wont appear until you are just like Him.....else you wont be able to see Him.

 

[Marilyn C]

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 15:16

Hi rocky...

The Lord will certainly come as a thief in the night - to some, however to the Body of Christ the Lord says

`But you, brethren, are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief...` (1 Thess. 5: 4) and `but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Micah888]

Verse 16 is telling us the location of the battle of Armageddon which is actually the congregation of God all over the world, not a location in the Middle East.

If Christians were to use your method of interpretation we could make just about anything in the Bible mean something else. So here is the reality about the battle of Armageddon in the valley of Megiddon

ZECHARIAH 12
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem... 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

REVELATION 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty... 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The valley of Megiddon is a triangular-shaped plain marked roughly by Mount Tabor on the northeast, Mount Gilboa on the south, and Mount Carmel on the northwest.

 

[sdowney717]

The people who came up with pretrib rapture as NEW REVELATION more than 150 years ago were not good people, they were wolves and false prophets.

WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY BY DAVE MACPHERSON

 

[Inkfingers]

Hi rocky...

The Lord will certainly come as a thief in the night - to some, however to the Body of Christ the Lord says

`But you, brethren, are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief...` (1 Thess. 5: 4) and `but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

regards, Marilyn.

Indeed.

Can we come to know the day and the hour?

We all know the quote in Matthew 24:36, that “no man knows the day or the hour” and that God “comes like a thief in the night”, but Revelation 3:3 tells us that only those who are not awake do not know the hour at which God comes...

In light of this, and reading the fuller quote from 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, is it actually possible to know the hour?

Revelation 3:3 implies that it is indeed possible to know the hour.

 

[seventysevens]

The people who came up with pretrib rapture as NEW REVELATION more than 150 years ago were not good people, they were wolves and false prophets.

WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING: FALSE PROPHETS AND BIBLE TEACHERS IN THE LAST DAYS: PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY BY DAVE MACPHERSON

Absolute rubbish!
The thing that I find so puzzling is that many people do not consider all matters - they think is it all about what they must do for the kingdom - What they must do to prove to God - all about what they must do - as they chant "we have work to do" with no regard that God does not need us , we need Him - all Jesus asked is just love one another and spread the good news about what JESUS Has done for us !

Not what we have done for him - there is no need to go through the most severe period of time of hell on earth - designed and implemented by Jesus , He does not want us to go through it - that is why he tells us what not to do .

Just as almost every parent that has lived will say they want their children to have a better life than what they the parents had - No good parent would say that their children must go through hellfire to prove their love to their parents - That is opposite of what love really is .

Jesus chose to come to earth knowing his mission is to suffer for all mankind so if people will believe on Him they will have eternal life
'Think- If a father tells his son - Do Not get drunk and drive a car because if you do you will sit in jail - Father telling son what the consequence will be if they choose to disobey
Just as Jesus says that if you obey Him and put your faith in HIM you will Not suffer the Great Trib because the Great trib is for those who Disobey .

This is why Jesus says outright that those who have put their faith and trust in HIM, He will keep us out from the Great Trib that is to put on trial those that refuse to repent - you are following a bunch of nonsense that is easily proven false !

Jesus gives warnings that if you choose to do something other than follow what he says then you will suffer - just as father telling his son Beforehand that if the son disregards the warning that he gives, the son will know Beforehand what the consequences of that disregard will bring - the hope is that the son will ABIDE in his being told so that he can avoid the consequences

 

[BABerean2]

This is why Jesus says outright that those who have put their faith and trust in HIM, He will keep us out from the Great Trib that is to put on trial those that refuse to repent - you are following a bunch of nonsense that is easily proven false !

The Greek words for wrath and tribulation are not the same word.

Mat_13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rev_1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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[seventysevens]

Part of the Church will escape the tribulations for the end, but that doesn't mean they physically leave. In Rev.3 Jesus told the Church of Philadelphia they would escape the hour of temptation, but that doesn't mean physically leaving, it means not being deceived.

Wrong , if you read the words Jesus says he will keep us OUT from it - physically removed - not some symbolic symbolism - the reason they are kept out from it is because we Follow what Jesus tells us and put our faith in HIM - not what those of you try to imply what Jesus said , out from means being removed - But the fact is that those who follow Jesus will NOT be in any part of the Great trib - considering that means at least a Billion people - there is not enough room in Petra for that amount of people
edit
It should be noted that during this time , you have to account for how a billion or so people can buy food , have a job , have electricity, etc etc without taking the mark if they are still on earth - the reason they are not on earth is so they are not subjected to the suffering , because they put their faith in Jesus

 

[seventysevens]

The Greek words for wrath and tribulation are not the same word.
.

That does Not change the FACT that Jesus is the one who designed and implements the Great Trib start to finish - from the moment that the Man of Lawlessness proclaims he is God - causes people to be deceived and believes he is God -who then causes people to accept the mark -all the way through to the point in time when Jesus returns to earth and reigns on earth

 

[rockytopva]

If this were anything but pre-trib it would be very well announced don't you think? Therefore it would not have been necessary for the Lord to say he comes as a thief.

 

[BABerean2]

If this were anything but pre-trib it would be very well announced don't you think? Therefore it would not have been necessary for the Lord to say he comes as a thief.

Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

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[sdowney717]

Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

.

Yes, we are well along into the great tribulation when Christ says He is still to come as a thief.
And yes, wrath is poured out not on the people of God, but on the kingdom of the beast and his people.
Christians are warned they will experience persecution and tribulation, but this is not coming from God, it is coming from the world, which world is going to be destroyed by fire at His second coming and afterwards the people of God inherit the earth, exactly as Daniel 7 states.

Daniel 7 is a very good read to understand the time of the end. For a time, two times and a half time the saints are given into the beast's hands. Till the beast's dominion is taken away and given to the people of God by the heavenly court of judgement. For some reason, people don't want to believe this, they are deceived into thinking they can wrest dominion from the beast. In Daniel 7, this prophecy is witnessed too several times, so it is not to be ignored. I don't want to post all of what everyone else can simply read for themselves.


21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.


23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.

27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’


Those kings are demonically empowered as the arise out of the earth, but at the end the kingdoms and all their greatness shall be given to the saints and they will possess it forever. So we get to inherit the earth, as Christ said, and it will not be a wasteland.

17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four [h]kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

 

[Davy]

Whatever you believe happens.....it must happen in your life time......Just like Enoch. Jesus will be seen with your eye. Not your eyes. Those who have an ear, Hear.

To those without, all things are done in parable. Why? So that seeing they will not see and hearing they will not hear....lest they be healed and converted.

He wont appear until you are just like Him.....else you wont be able to see Him.

Actually true, as Apostle Paul showed in 1 Cor.15; those of us still alive on earth on the day of Christ's return will be changed at the twinkling of an eye to our spiritual body. That is when we will see Him coming in the clouds with the resurrected saints that were asleep.

 

[Davy]

Indeed.

Can we come to know the day and the hour?

We all know the quote in Matthew 24:36, that “no man knows the day or the hour” and that God “comes like a thief in the night”, but Revelation 3:3 tells us that only those who are not awake do not know the hour at which God comes...

In light of this, and reading the fuller quote from 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, is it actually possible to know the hour?

Revelation 3:3 implies that it is indeed possible to know the hour.

What Marilyn C quoted from Heb.10:25, "... but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching," does point to that we are to know as the day of Christ's coming approaches. Same thing with this verse she quoted:

1 Thess 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

being in darkness = being overtaken as a thief (breaking in).

The point is that we are to be on watch leading up to His return:

Matt 24:42-46
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

There were 4 night watches from midnight to dawn in the old Hebrew system. Knowing "in what watch the thief would come" is put for watching the events our Lord gave us to be watching leading up to the day of His coming. It doesn't mean we can know the exact day and hour. That's what's meant by seeing the day approaching, by watching the signs He gave.


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
KJV

That's what our Lord Jesus wants us to be doing when He comes. He wants to find us on watch. Paul used the idea of remaining sober vs. those who are drunken in the night and asleep. Simple metaphors really. Watch. Watch what? Watch for the signs our Lord Jesus gave for the end of this world. He listed them right there in Matthew 24 for one Bible location.

 

[Marilyn C]

What Marilyn C quoted from Heb.10:25, "... but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching," does point to that we are to know as the day of Christ's coming approaches. Same thing with this verse she quoted:

1 Thess 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

being in darkness = being overtaken as a thief (breaking in).

The point is that we are to be on watch leading up to His return:

Matt 24:42-46
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

There were 4 night watches from midnight to dawn in the old Hebrew system. Knowing "in what watch the thief would come" is put for watching the events our Lord gave us to be watching leading up to the day of His coming. It doesn't mean we can know the exact day and hour. That's what's meant by seeing the day approaching, by watching the signs He gave.


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
KJV

That's what our Lord Jesus wants us to be doing when He comes. He wants to find us on watch. Paul used the idea of remaining sober vs. those who are drunken in the night and asleep. Simple metaphors really. Watch. Watch what? Watch for the signs our Lord Jesus gave for the end of this world. He listed them right there in Matthew 24 for one Bible location.

Hi Davy,

Good we can agree on some of those scriptures, bro. However... in Matthew the Lord is talking to the people of Israel as they are IN DARKNESS and will not know when the Lord comes as a thief.

Matt 24:42-46
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Whereas when speaking to the Body of Christ we read -

`But you, brethren, are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief...` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

Marilyn.

 

[seventysevens]

People that believe that God will protect us through the GT - no scripture even suggests that and many verses tell us that we will not go through it , many posters have asked people of the post trib view to share their plans of how they will buy food and necessities without the mark ,and how will they have a job without the mark , how will a billion + people accomplish these simple matters ,and none of the post tribbers will answer - they say they have a plan but will not share their plan - that is either untrue or they are lovers of themselves and not of their brothers and sisters in Christ and not willing to obey Jesus command ;when he speaks when you did not do it to the least of these you did not do it Jesus
Great tribulation compared to tribulation is like a thunderstorm compared to a tsunami - Big difference , A Great earthquake happens during the Great Trib - one that is like no other has ever happened , post trib view supposes that the Great Trib is like comparing a sprinkle shower to a thunderstorm , time to wake up and realize it is far Greater than you think it will be

 

[Erik Nelson]

I hate to tell you but there is nothing stealth about the second coming of Jesus Christ. And in your theory how do the 144,000 Jews come into play, the ones who witness to all the world in the time of great tribulation, the ones called to do so because there doesn't seem to be any other Christians around to do so. When did that happen and where ?

In Jerusalem in about 57 AD, there were "many tens of thousands of Jews who believed" (Acts 21:20).

Evidently, by the time of the Jewish rebellion a dozen years later, those numbers had grown (doubled? tripled?) to 144,000.

 

[Dave G.]

In Jerusalem in about 57 AD, there were "many tens of thousands of Jews who believed" (Acts 21:20).

Evidently, by the time of the Jewish rebellion a dozen years later, those numbers had grown (doubled? tripled?) to 144,000.

There are supposed to be 12,000 selected from each of the 12 tribes and who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, thus 144,000.

Listen if you think we have been through the millennial reign and what we see going on in the world today is the new heaven on earth and the promised kingdom/paradise and the best God ever had to offer, so be it. I don't know who brain washed you into thinking like that. But I don't think it is. I don't think beheaded Christians and others , ISIS, radical Islam, lions still eating lambs etc is part of the final plan but more like before the end to me. But hey you are free to believe as you wish.