Before Cleveland Game, Biggest Anthem Protest Yet

[KCfromNC]

I never figured out why people on the far-right get so bent out of shape about people refusing to say the pledge or sing the national anthem.

When you talk about every other issue with them
'Government is too powerful'
'We should always be skeptical of government'
'We need smaller government'
'Government shouldn't be able to tell me what to do'
'I need 40 rifles so I can fight the government'
'Government has no right to tell people what they can and can't believe'

Don't forget how important state's rights are - at least until a black person doesn't participate in a tribute to the US Federal Government.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Your ability to completely misunderstand and/or misrepresent what I say never ceases to amaze me.

I'm not misrepresenting anything...I might be taking a slightly facetious approach, but none the less, you implied that him making the personal choice to take a knee instead of participating was "shoving politics in your face".

If there mere sight of someone else not doing something is somehow infringing on you, then your beef is with the cameraman, not him.

 

[Rion]

I'm not misrepresenting anything...I might be taking a slightly facetious approach, but none the less, you implied that him making the personal choice to take a knee instead of participating was "shoving politics in your face".

If there mere sight of someone else not doing something is somehow infringing on you, then your beef is with the cameraman, not him.

No, I said I can understand not wanting politics shoved into your face with regards to entertainment. Whether or not this would count as such is up to the fans, but many seem to think so. The truth is that most Americans do not seem to view the anthem as being inherently political, but cultural. So someone kneeling during it is seen as pushing a political message and being disrespectful. What is it that progressives are always shouting when trying to get someone fired for having the wrong thoughts? Freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequences? I guess it doesn't apply when it is speech they like.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What is it that progressives are always shouting when trying to get someone fired for having the wrong thoughts? Freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequences? I guess it doesn't apply when it is speech they like.

I would definitely agree that the PC-lefties display a large amount of hypocrisy on the topic as well. ...and if you look in any of the threads about "safe spaces", Islam, and a few other topics, I by no means give them a pass on that.

However, the hypocrisy seems to be more severe with members of the right.

We literally had people marching around with 1930's German flags and people were defending them based on the idea "you can express whatever ideas you like as long as you're not physically harming anyone"...which, like I said, is a sentiment I agree with. You should be able to express any controversial idea you like in an open forum, that's part of what our country is all about.

...but when those same people get on FB and CF and rant about how people who don't participate in the pledge or national anthem are traitors and deserve to be deported, it's very hypocritical.

 

[Rion]

I would definitely agree that the PC-lefties display a large amount of hypocrisy on the topic as well. ...and if you look in any of the threads about "safe spaces", Islam, and a few other topics, I by no means give them a pass on that.

However, the hypocrisy seems to be more severe with members of the right.

We literally had people marching around with 1930's German flags and people were defending them based on the idea "you can express whatever ideas you like as long as you're not physically harming anyone"...which, like I said, is a sentiment I agree with. You should be able to express any controversial idea you like in an open forum, that's part of what our country is all about.

...but when those same people get on FB and CF and rant about how people who don't participate in the pledge or national anthem are traitors and deserve to be deported, it's very hypocritical.

Are you talking about the two joke posts at the beginning? I must have missed the calls for deportation in this thread.

 

[Belk]

If they had previously, I doubt any one would care. Now that they've drawn attention to it, it'd go over like a lead balloon. Not really sure there's a win-win in this scenario.



Your ability to completely misunderstand and/or misrepresent what I say never ceases to amaze me.

If they had done it previously they would of screamed. Not quit as loud as they would now but it still would of happened. People become inordinately defensive about traditions. Even ones that they would staunchly oppose if they were introduced now.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I fully support the rights of people to peacefully protest, regardless of whether or not I agree with their position. That being said, I also know how to use the channel changer on my television.

 

[iluvatar5150]

No, I said I can understand not wanting politics shoved into your face with regards to entertainment. Whether or not this would count as such is up to the fans, but many seem to think so. The truth is that most Americans do not seem to view the anthem as being inherently political, but cultural. So someone kneeling during it is seen as pushing a political message and being disrespectful.

Isn't that the essence of "privilege" - that you (or in this case, these football fans) get to go about your life without contemplating such things?

 

[Rion]

Isn't that the essence of "privilege" - that you (or in this case, these football fans) get to go about your life without contemplating such things?

Privilege is the Original Sin for the Progressive-Left. It is the fear that someone, somewhere, may be enjoying something without thinking of the problems or failures of society for the briefest of moments. It is also why the moment you use that phrase, people start tuning you out.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Are you talking about the two joke posts at the beginning? I must have missed the calls for deportation in this thread.

No, I'm just referring to in general...if you comb the threads here or on facebook pertaining to topics like Colin, "should the pledge be mandatory", "not standing during the national anthem", etc... It's pretty clear that some on the right have this notion that nothing less than total allegiance to our flag and our flag only is acceptable...yet they provided rationalizations for defending people carrying enemy flags.

 

[Rion]

No, I'm just referring to in general...if you comb the threads here or on facebook pertaining to topics like Colin, "should the pledge be mandatory", "not standing during the national anthem", etc... It's pretty clear that some on the right have this notion that nothing less than total allegiance to our flag and our flag only is acceptable...yet they provided rationalizations for defending people carrying enemy flags.

Okay, well, if these people show up in this thread I'll be sure to disagree with them.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Privilege is the Original Sin for the Progressive-Left. It is the fear that someone, somewhere, may be enjoying something without thinking of the problems or failures of society for the briefest of moments. It is also why the moment you use that phrase, people start tuning you out.

Way to pass the buck.

The problem isn't so much with having privilege in the first place. The problem is moreso with refusing to recognize it and acknowledge how it frames our perspectives.

The privilege in this case is in being able to view the anthem as purely cultural - the problem with the privilege is in folks' repeated refusal to see the the political implications of that cultural symbol. That that symbol didn't represent something that negatively affected them allows them to actively deny the reality that it negatively affected someone else.

To go back to the complaints about Colin Kaepernick, potential Senate candidate Kid Rock just played the Iowa State Fair and chose to bring up football and Kap's protest:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...te-fair-mostly-politics-free-party/584820001/

The Des Moines Register makes this anti-Kap outburst into little more than a footnote, but Breitbart's coverage (to which I can't link because of profanities, but I'm sure it's easy enough to find on their site) focuses entirely on it. TMZ has an article from 9/13/2016 (which I, again, can't link to) with a video of him expressing the same sentiment at a show at Fenway last year.

Where's the protest of Kid Rock injecting politics into a concert? There isn't one because his audience agrees with his politics.

 

[Rion]

Way to pass the buck.

The problem isn't so much with having privilege in the first place. The problem is moreso with refusing to recognize it and acknowledge how it frames our perspectives.

The privilege in this case is in being able to view the anthem as purely cultural - the problem with the privilege is in folks' repeated refusal to see the the political implications of that cultural symbol. That that symbol didn't represent something that negatively affected them allows them to actively deny the reality that it negatively affected someone else.

No, the problem with 'privilege' is that it's mostly a bunch of navel-gazing horse hockey that allows people to excuse why they haven't succeeded without accounting for their own shortcomings. The idea that some poor white guy in the backwoods of Alabama somehow has more inherent privilege than a rich black guy in San Francisco is devoid of reason and divorced from reality.

Unless a government has done something directly to negatively impact you, the only reason a flag, anthem, etc. is going to trigger you is because you are consumed with identity politics and self-indulgence. This is coming from someone whose ancestors were either already here and got screwed out of their land several times over or came here and were treated as barely human. With American Indians, there's basically a major divide between those of us who refused to let the past consume us, and those who continue to wallow in grievances done by those long dead to others who are long dead.

 

[iluvatar5150]

No, the problem with 'privilege' is that it's mostly a bunch of navel-gazing horse hockey that allows people to excuse why they haven't succeeded without accounting for their own shortcomings. The idea that some poor white guy in the backwoods of Alabama somehow has more inherent privilege than a rich black guy in San Francisco is devoid of reason and divorced from reality.

Sure, if you can't comprehend its nuances enough to see it as something more complicated than a single dimension or parameter like an avatar's XP stat, then yeah, it's gonna seem silly. But most things seem silly when reduced down to straw man levels like that.

Unless a government has done something directly to negatively impact you, the only reason a flag, anthem, etc. is going to trigger you is because you are consumed with identity politics and self-indulgence.

Police departments and other government agencies across the country, right now, engage in a multitude of practices that (intentionally or not) disproportionately harm minority populations. Whether or not Kap has been personally harmed by these agencies, I have no idea - but frankly, it shouldn't matter. Since when have we restricted the fight for justice to only those who've been victimized by that injustice. Whether or not he's a victim doesn't negate the fact that there are victims and that their justice is worth fighting for.

How many of the right-wing folks taking that position against Kap would take the same position in the pro-life debate, i.e. that the only folks who can protest abortion are the unborn victims of abortion?

 

[Rion]

Sure, if you can't comprehend its nuances enough to see it as something more complicated than a single dimension or parameter like an avatar's XP stat, then yeah, it's gonna seem silly. But most things seem silly when reduced down to straw man levels like that.

Oh, I can comprehend them just fine, it's just that I find most of them to be crap.

Police departments and other government agencies across the country, right now, engage in a multitude of practices that (intentionally or not) disproportionately harm minority populations.

I note that you did not say target, but harm. What exactly are they doing? Why are the minorities being harmed more? Is it because of the situation where more of them are single-parent households, which leads to poverty, dysfunction, and thus higher criminal behavior, or is it something else?

Whether or not Kap has been personally harmed by these agencies, I have no idea - but frankly, it shouldn't matter. Since when have we restricted the fight for justice to only those who've been victimized by that injustice. Whether or not he's a victim doesn't negate the fact that there are victims and that their justice is worth fighting for.

I never said they couldn't protest. I said it shouldn't trigger you. As for injustice, show me this injustice. I hate injustice, I really do, but I also hate when people claim injustice when it isn't, and when they try to demonize whole groups for the actions of a few. I don't tolerate it when people do it with Muslims, and I don't tolerate it when they try it with cops.

How many of the right-wing folks taking that position against Kap would take the same position in the pro-life debate, i.e. that the only folks who can protest abortion are the unborn victims of abortion?

Well, since that's a silly strawman you created, I imagine not many.

 

[Phil 1:21]

 

[BigDaddy4]

So true. Colin can kneel in protest before a game, but a football coach can't kneel in thankfulness (prayer) after a game. A Washington state high school football coach just lost his 9th Circuit Court of Appeals case for losing his job because he would kneel in prayer after a game.

Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, just don't freely express your religion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, he did leave out some specific details about how Black people and other minorities have been subjugated, enslaved, oppressed, marginalized, and discriminated against in this country since its inception in 1776 until the Civil Rights Movement in 1964. I think he was only trying to summarize. It probably would have taken him several posts and several hours to fully cover the entire history of how Black people and other minorities have been marginalized and oppressed in this country. Anyway, I fully support these NFL players. If I had been there, I would have silently joined in. I might even have tried to approach them to tell them that I personally support them. I think they did the right thing.

As far as what that guy said...I really only object to the notion that black people are "purposely" imprisoned. Blacks commit violent crimes at almost astronomical rates...far higher than whites or other minorities. One would expect to find them as the majority of the prison population.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They are making millions despite the oppression they even now still experience due to the past of this country. Not because of it.

And sorry, but refusing to stand for an anthem that contains verses like "No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave" does not mean one hates "this country"

I agree those lyrics are entirely too offensive...

I suggest we replace it with "Real N***** Don't Die" by NWA...it's far more patriotic.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Isn't that the essence of "privilege" - that you (or in this case, these football fans) get to go about your life without contemplating such things?

No...everyone has that ability. It isn't restricted to whites.