first off, was it not you that asked me about jn 15:10? i answered you, but like frogster, you don't like my answer.
First off it is not that I don't like your awnser as much as I realize that I failed to make my point at least understood.
OK I own up to introducing John 15:10. I know you wouldn't ever make that mistake. I wonder why though I would bring it up? Don't you claim that we're obligated to the law/10 commandments? Did Jesus teach the law? It is impossible that My commandments and My Father's commandments are the same?
We know that Jesus followed the law as issued at MT Sinai. I'm sure there are no questions about that. If Jesus followed those commandments, what then are His Father's commandments that He claimed to follow? I don't see them anywhere in Scripture. You seem to say or imply that we are to follow the example Jesus set before us. Hope I'm correct in that. Therefore we must keep Jesus' Father's commandments also. So if the 10 commandments are Jesus' commandments what are His Father's commandments?
What about LK 16:16? -
The law and the prophets
were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. I need to show that there is a difference in the ownership of what commandments belong to Who and John 15:10 does a superb job with that. Since I need to know what Jesus is talking about and you say we're obligated to the 10, I desperately need you to show me both sets of commandments.
I want to do what Jesus said to do. Is Jesus saying to follow Moses or Him in John 15:10?
Jesus even said - A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. - John 13:34. A very good example that Jesus is changing the law and giving a commandment of Jesus which is not found in the law. I don't see them anywhere in Scripture. You seem to say or imply that we are to follow the example Jesus set before us. Hope I'm correct in that. Therefore we must keep Jesus' Father's commandments also. Now you say that we're obligated to the 10 commandments. I assume that you still say Jesus kept the commandments. I have a problem. I want and need to know what these commandments of the Father are. Clearly My commandments are not the same thing as My Father's commandments. English language will not permit this as written in John 15:10. I have examined the verse back to original language and can't change what the verse says in English. The Speaker in the verse can't be His own Father according to the rules of the English language. So the translators don't know what they're doing? They can't even write a sentence that agrees with the rules of the language and they are language experts. We are certainly in trouble. Or is there some o the manuscript that says something else? No one has ever presented such to me. And I have debated with those who say they know and present various manuscripts to support their view.
so, let's try this again. and btw, i'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. i'm hoping you see how i believe that the ten commandments are still in force. i will not ask you to believe me, you can believe what you want.
Yes I see very plainly how you believe the 10 commandments are in force. If you want that explanation ask.
John 15:10 ( NKJV ) 10If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
this is the verse in question. i told you on page 30, post #297, how you sin by not keeping Jesus' commandments and then you accused me of calling Jesus a parrot.
No what you told me is how I sin by not keeping the 10 commandments of the law. You have still to convince me that as a Christian of the new covenant I’m so obligated. You have me obligated to 2 conflicting covenants at the same time.
Yes and now I need you to identify those commandments. You say that the 10 commandments are issued by Jesus. I ask how? I showed you that Moses didn't talk to Jesus at Mt Sinai. To say other wise you have to deny that Jesus existed because thousands have seen Him and lived. So who is fibbing? It either has to be Moses or God (Jesus in your case). Is the Scripture reliable? I want to know the truth.
Do you see why I say the 10 commandments aren't issued by Jesus. I don't treat the word God and Jesus as the same Being and yet both are
The God.. This is demonstrated very well in Paul's letters Most every one of them starts off with something similar to this: Paul, an
apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2Grace be to you, and peace, from
God our Father,
and from the
Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: These type of greetings show that God our Father and Jesus Christ aren't the same Being. There is much more if you wish to discuss the trinity which is very important to this discussion and Christianity. My Father and Me represented by the word My in John 15:10 aren't the same Being while both are God.
On the parrot issue I didn't mean to accuse you of anything. What you're saying to me makes Jesus a parrot. You used John 14:24 to Jesus wasn't speaking His words but quoting His Father of sorts. Which I really don't understand if they are the same thing which is implied by your application of John 15:10. I'm firmly rooted in the doctrine of the Trinity.
here's the link:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7527007-30/
and then i copied and pasted the commandments of Jesus.
Really. I read mostly the 10 commandments issued from Mt Sinai. It is so cluttered one would have to dig Jesus' commandments out. Could you put them in a numbered list like the 10 commandments were, please? I certainly didn't understand you Bill McGinnis source to be talking about Jesus' commandments by them selves. He did a good job with the 10 commandments, though. He ran things together just a tad.
that answer i gave you on page 30 also covers jn 14:15
John 14:15 ( NKJV ) 15“If you love Me, keep My commandments.
this is my answer.
now, 1jn 3:23
1 John 3:23 ( NKJV ) 23And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ
and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
notice that both jn 14:15 and 1jn 3:23 are commandments. either one is going to abide by these commandments or they won't. it's that simple.
No there is only a single commandment issued by God in I John 3:23. Now one could easily read the last phrase as being God the Father or God the Son Jesus Christ. One way is that the only commandment is to believe on His Son and love one another. The other way I see is that Jesus gave us the commandment to love one another. As I see it we have only one 2 part commandment from God the Father mentioned in I John 3:23 at best. So is this an authority issue? If so I would say that a Father has more authority than a Son. What are we obligated to? I would say this single commandment. Yes I understand that you will come back and say this proves that Jesus issued the 10 commandments and I will throw back Jer 31:31-34 showing a new different covenant.
now if you don't on either of these verses then:
Romans 6:16 ( NKJV ) 16Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s
slaves whom you obey,
whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
your actions tell who you obey. now, if it is to "sin leading to death", how can that be ? you violate the first commandment in this instance. how hard is that to understand? that's why i referenced jn 14:24 on page 30.[/quote]I fully agree with your statement of actions telling who one obeys. Do you obey Jesus or the law of Moses which includes the 10 commandments, not seperastes them? So who's slave are you? The law's or Jesus? Jesus owns me by purchase with blood bought from the law.
So is it sin that leads one to death? It appears that way if you only consider your cited verse. The previous 2 verses claim that we're not subject to or bound to the law. How are we said to be servants of sin? Is it because we are incapable of observing the law as Jesus pointed out? Our disobedience to our owner the law makes us a slave to sin. We simply can't submit to the law without flaw. It you steal you will always be a theif and maybe a forgiven theif, but still a theif. Same goes for the rest of the law. Forgivness doesn't make one righteous. Forgiveness is not what Jesus offers. Jesus offers total obliteration of your sin as in it doesn't exist.
if you have a problem understanding what i say, don't make up stuff that i didn't say, like "calling Jesus a parrot", rather, ask me about it.
OK seeing what you have presented please tell me how Jesus isn't a parrot as I have charged. Thanks. [/quote]
example: in post #251 you said,
"If I remember correctly you hold that the 10 commandments are from God and the rest of the law isn't."
i never said that, so i wonder where did you get that from?[/quote]Really? Don't you hold that the 10 commandments are from God written with His own finger and the the rest of the law is written by Moses? Please stop and think about that question for a minute. I think that you can see that I understand you to say that what Moses wrote is from him or his doing and not from God. You claim the 10 commandments belong to God becasue He wrote them and you attribute the rest of the law to Moses because he wrote them. It seems to me that you clearly make a distinction of ownership and charge that the rest of the law isn't from God. You have repeatedly ignored my comments that such is not true. I have given examples like this: And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel.
i said, "the ten commandments were written by God Himself, and moses wrote the rest of the law." do you see how different that is from what you said?
Yes see above presentation on the matter.
who don't know that God gave all of the law?
I guess you don't because you clearly said Moses wrote the rest of the law. The manner in which you use the word wrote indicates
origin and ownership.
you said:
"God didn't say He would take His law written in stone and write that law in our hearts."
and you are right. God did not say that. but, can't we connect the dots?
Sure if we connect the correct dots. Just because dots are connected, doesn't mean anything, especially properly connected.
this is why it's important to study.
I agree if you mean the whole Bible without agenda. That is believe something and then go and find something in the Bible that seems to support that idea while ignoring everything else.
Exodus 31:18 ( NKJV ) 18And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
paul says:
Romans 7:12,14 ( NKJV ) 12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good....14For we know that the law is spiritual...
Yes the law deals with the Spirit and makes demands on the flesh. The law isn't the Spirit. And if one follows the Spirit they don't perform the lust fo the flesh - Gal 5:16-21 which you have seen me quote here and in GT. Here it is again - This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
This deals very effectively with your behavior requirements of the law. The focus is vastly different. Effort (work) is required to follow the law and following the Spirit leaves no desire or temptation to do those things. One does what they think about. The verse has nothing to do with the law.
that's why it makes sense that God wrote the ten commandments, the Holy and spiritual law. and moses wrote the parts of the law that pertained to it's physical application in the "real world", writing the statutes and judgments, along with the ceremonial "works of law".
When did eating pork become a sin? When did trimming your beard become a sin? When did wearing mixed thread garments become a sin? Need more? Is Moses making thins sin? If so why should we listen to him? Is having sex or marrying your first cousin, neice, your deceased father's wife, or your deceased wife's sister adultery? Are they sin? Are those laws nailed to the cross? Hmmm! they must not be sin any more. They sure aren't mentioned in the 10 commandments. Just more of what I don't understand about the law - first covenant.
notice the part that God wrote takes no physical effort to perform, it's about attitude, your state of mind. on the other hand, the part moses wrote dealt with the physical aspect.
Yes it certianly takes no effort to obey those commandments. I guess that is why false witness is used so often by the law pusher in these forums.
Jeremiah 31:33 ( NKJV ) 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their
hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
now, pray tell, why wouldn't God write something that paul says is holy, just, and good in our hearts?
Beats me. But that certianly doesn't mean that God wrote the COI on our hearts does it? At least not according to Jeremiah. He clearly says God cuts a new different covenant. That doesn't mean that God just declared sin holy, does it? Neither do I. The law pusher charges that we say such as a manipilation tatic.
and i've noticed that dictionaries don't mean squat on this forum, may as well through that turkey in the trash.
Good assessment.
