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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Be honest!!
- Thread starter mixster
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Very interesting remarks folks and I appreciate the honesty. I have always been under the impression that if one did not follow all the dictates of the Roman Catholic church and obey the Pope and go through all the form and fashion you guys go through that you could not be saved.
I guess I am asking why you go through all the form and fashion, if this is not neccesary for salvation. I believe that all one has to do is ask Jesus into your heart, repent of your sins then you are saved forever and baptism has nothing to do with salvation but it is important none the less because we are commanded to do so as a show that we have buried our sins in Christ and raised up as new in Christ.
I though Catholics baptised babies and other by sprinkling but we believe that we have to be immersed as Jesus was. In short it seems you folks have to work hard for your salvation but we have the simple plan of salvation that works by faith thru faith for us.
I guess I am asking why you go through all the form and fashion, if this is not neccesary for salvation. I believe that all one has to do is ask Jesus into your heart, repent of your sins then you are saved forever and baptism has nothing to do with salvation but it is important none the less because we are commanded to do so as a show that we have buried our sins in Christ and raised up as new in Christ.
I though Catholics baptised babies and other by sprinkling but we believe that we have to be immersed as Jesus was. In short it seems you folks have to work hard for your salvation but we have the simple plan of salvation that works by faith thru faith for us.
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anawim
Senior Veteran
mixster said:
In the OT, all of the covenants had a visible sign. The covenant with Adam was the sabbath. The covenant with Noah was the rainbow. The covenant with Abraham was circumcision, etc. They were a sign of the oath that was sworn between God and man.
In the NT the covenant has covenant oath signs as well. The Latin word for oath is sacramentum. The sacraments are the visible sign of what God is doing inwardly through grace.
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InnerPhyre
Well-Known Member
mixster said:
Jesus said those who do the Father's will will be saved. It is the Father's will that we grow in holiness. The sacraments sustain us and allow us to grow in that holiness. We're not saying that all Protestants will be whisped up into heaven just for believing. The demons believe and tremble. We said it's possible for Protestants to go to heaven. Faith alone is not what saves us. Faith is what justifies us. We are saved by Grace, which comes to us through our faith put into action. Faith without works is dead. LIkewise works without faith are useless.
I can go through the sacraments and have it mean nothing to me and I will have put on a useless elaborate show. But my faith united with the sacraments will bestow an abundance of Grace.
We don't know how many Protestants will be saved. We don't even know how many Catholics will be saved. We know that if you want to go to heaven, the teachings of the Catholic Church and her sacraments will get you there if you remain faithful and endure to the end. For all the rest, we can only trust in God's mercy.
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James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=james 2&version=31
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Metanoia02
Owner of the invisible &a mp;
If one actually believes "that all one has to do is ask Jesus into your heart, repent of your sins then you are saved forever and baptism has nothing to do with salvation" then from the Catholic perspective, it very well may be a tough row to hoe in getting to heaven. If one sees Baptism as "form and fashion" they will have some 'splainin' to do. I guess you could agrue with God over what the Bible means, but that would be kind of silly wouldn't it.
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Shelb5 said:
Well, I would say most faithful, devout Catholics are in general honest. But, not all Catholics all the time. Same goes for Christians of all faiths.
Shelb5 said:
I'm not arguing salvation here, but I have to ask something. Can you direct me to where Christ instructs us that in order to join Him in the hereafter, we must accept His Church?
Shelb5 said:
Really? God's kingdom is fully "Catholic?" Michelle, define "catholic," please. The Church was catholic as in universal. Just because you capitalize Catholic when distinguishing your faith from other Christian denominations, is the meaning of the word different? Catholic means "universal." To refer to God's kingdom as fully Catholic is a little confining or belittling isn't it?
I believe His kingdom exceeds universal by a long shot.
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InnerPhyre
Well-Known Member
racer said:
Jesus told His apostles that whoever rejects them rejects Him. The leaders of the Church are the successors of the apostles.
racer said:
When we say that everyone in heaven is Catholic, we mean that everyone who is in heaven knows that everything the Catholic Church teaches is true and they believe it, as such....so there are no errors in belief in heaven. therefore, they're all Catholic.
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Racer, please look at this site: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-I
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Metanoia02 said:
Met,
I agree, but I think the statement "that all one has to do is ask Jesus into your heart, repent of your sins then you are saved forever and baptism has nothing to do with salvation" is a grand oversimplification. However, I also believe that even when making such a comment, the person in question doesn't really believe it's that simple. I think that a big error is made when someone tries to make a point in too few words. To my knowledge, even people who do not believe that "water baptism" is necessary believe that a spiritual baptism must take place. I think that people who do not believe in OSAS tend to oversimplify the doctrine just like people who claim that Catholics believe that good works alone will get you in to Heaven. I think the differing faiths talk circles around each other and do not realize how similar the beliefs are. (I'm not referring to water vs. spiritual baptism).
God Bless!
Lisa
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InnerPhyre
Well-Known Member
racer said:I don't reject His Church. But, your question did not answer mine.
Did my answers suffice?
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geocajun
Priest of the holy smackrament
racer said:
Church = flock. It is God's will that we all be part of His Church.
Racer, all the Saints in heaven are part of the Catholic Church.
We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and as much as some folks would like to think "Catholic" is referring to some invisible Church - that simply is not true. That concept is a product of the protestant reformation.
The Catholic Church, capital or lower case, is referring to the same thing.
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InnerPhyre said:
So, did no apostle stray from the true teachings? Were we told to follow all leaders and successors unquestioningly? Where did Jesus say that no apostle would get the truth wrong.
InnerPhyre said:
You know what, I'm sure what I'm going to say will offend you. But, when we get into heaven, whatever your Church or my church has taught during our earthly tenure will be moot points. What church you belong to means squat to God. His requirements and expectations of us are spelled out very simply and explicitly in Scripture.
God Bless!!
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