Be honest!!

[racer]

Did my answers suffice?

Um . . . I'm guessing I missed your answers?

 

[Dream]

So, did no apostle stray from the true teachings? Were we told to follow all leaders and successors unquestioningly? Where did Jesus say that no apostle would get the truth wrong.

Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

 

[racer]

Gotta' go guys before I get myself in a wreck here.

God Bless!!

Lisa

 

[InnerPhyre]

Um . . . I'm guessing I missed your answers?

Can you direct me to where Christ instructs us that in order to join Him in the hereafter, we must accept His Church?

Jesus told His apostles that whoever rejects them rejects Him. The leaders of the Church are the successors of the apostles.

Really? God's kingdom is fully "Catholic?" Michelle, define "catholic," please. The Church was catholic as in universal. Just because you capitalize Catholic when distinguishing your faith from other Christian denominations, is the meaning of the word different? Catholic means "universal." To refer to God's kingdom as fully Catholic is a little confining or belittling isn't it?

I believe His kingdom exceeds universal by a long shot.

When we say that everyone in heaven is Catholic, we mean that everyone who is in heaven knows that everything the Catholic Church teaches is true and they believe it, as such....so there are no errors in belief in heaven. therefore, they're all Catholic.

 

[racer]

Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

Hu huh, but I would use the same verse on you--in a different forum.

 

[racer]

Jesus told His apostles that whoever rejects them rejects Him. The leaders of the Church are the successors of the apostles.



When we say that everyone in heaven is Catholic, we mean that everyone who is in heaven knows that everything the Catholic Church teaches is true and they believe it, as such....so there are no errors in belief in heaven. therefore, they're all Catholic.

Uh . . . what'd you do, cut-n-paste?

 

[racer]

ooops :o

 

[InnerPhyre]

I pasted from my previous answer, since you didn't see the first one.

 

[racer]

For real this time, bye-bye See y'all tomorrow.

Lisa

 

[PeterPaul]

You know what, I'm sure what I'm going to say will offend you. But, when we get into heaven, whatever your Church or my church has taught during our earthly tenure will be moot points. What church you belong to means squat to God. His requirements and expectations of us are spelled out very simply and explicitly in Scripture.

God Bless!!

Is that God talking or Racer?

On your second point, in Sacred Scripture it sure does tell us explicitly that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth (impossible if left to individual realities to hoist anything let alone truth). Jesus also tells St. Peter to feed his sheep to which St. Peter doesn't say, "But Lord, who am I?" On the other hand, Christ continuously says to tell all they meet that he sent them.

In the Bible, we have already a Protestant like culture in the form of Pilate, who can not define truth itself (even the Jews can not agree) because it had become a form of relativism.

It would make little sense for the end of truth to have disappeared with the apostles, or that every man is his bible.

 

[racer]

Is that God talking or Racer?

I don't know. Are your following comments God's or your own?

On your second point, in Sacred Scripture it sure does tell us explicitly that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth (impossible if left to individual realities to hoist anything let alone truth).

PP, of course you and I don't argue what Scripture says. What we argue is the meaning of what is said. Yes, Scripture says the church is the "pillar and bulwark of truth." You and those of your faith see it as meaning the Church only can interpret correctly Scripture. I and many others understand it to mean that Jesus charged the church with supporting, fulfilling, and upholding Scripture, to protect the truth. We see no assurance in those words that the Church will unerringly do so.

We disagree in some instances of what truth actually is. I would never be so bold as to say with any amount of pride or arrogance that your faith is wrong and mine is absolutely right. Because I don't believe that. You may see that as a weakness, I see it as being honest. There are simply things about the Catholic faith with which I do not concur. You may call that being wishywashy or "picking-and-choosing" what I personally want to agree with. I disagree. I believe that I'm not "picking and choosing," I believe that my understandings fall in line with what Scripture reveals to me. You most likely believe that I should not trust in my own ability to do so. However, I've found in Scripture that I should be able to do so, and have nowhere found where Scripture says I am incapable of doing so.

Jesus also tells St. Peter to feed his sheep to which St. Peter doesn't say, "But Lord, who am I?" On the other hand, Christ continuously says to tell all they meet that he sent them.

Okay.

In the Bible, we have already a Protestant like culture in the form of Pilate, who can not define truth itself (even the Jews can not agree) because it had become a form of relativism.

Your graciousness is too kind.

It would make little sense for the end of truth to have disappeared with the apostles, or that every man is his bible.

I don't believe the truth disappeared. I do believe it became distorted and changed by some.

God Bless!!

 

[PeterPaul]

Christ said a house divided can not stand.

Then he calls the Church the pillar of truth.

A divided pillar will not hold a house or anything for that matter.

Again, I understand you view scripture as self-revealing, however if it reveals one thing to you and another to me, it isn't.

I understand your POV, because I once held it also, however as intelligent as you are, you know that ommission does not conclude truth. Because I don't tell you specifically you can do something, does not ipso facto commend what you are doing nor reflect what you are doing as correct.

On the other hand, scripture, as a document post Early Church, does tell us where to look for official teaching.

 

[racer]

Christ said a house divided can not stand.

Has the Church went anywhere? No. Therefore, it must not be as divided as some tend to believe.

Then he calls the Church the pillar of truth.

What exactly does that mean to you?

A divided pillar will not hold a house or anything for that matter.

Well, then since the Church is still standing, is that pillar divided?

Again, I understand you view scripture as self-revealing, however if it reveals one thing to you and another to me, it isn't.

Just because Scripture can be self-revealing, doesn’t mean that all who read it are infallible and will come away with the correct understanding of it.

I understand your POV, because I once held it also, however as intelligent as you are, you know that ommission does not conclude truth. Because I don't tell you specifically you can do something, does not ipso facto commend what you are doing nor reflect what you are doing as correct.

Nor do I base my beliefs on what is omitted.

On the other hand, scripture, as a document post Early Church, does tell us where to look for official teaching.

Where is that? And where does Scripture direct us to this source?

 

[isshinwhat]

We see no assurance in those words that the Church will unerringly do so.

The Church is the mystical Body of Christ, and before her inception, Christ said and promised, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." When He sent the Apostles out, He sent them out telling them, "He who listens to you, listens to me. He who rejects you, rejects me." These weren't idle points they were preaching, topics of conversation that could be disagreed upon, these were the very "words of eternal life." The Church is the "Pillar and Foundation of truth" becase she is the Body of Christ and she preaches those same "words of eternal life," and it is because she teaches those words of eternal life through the successors of the Apostles that Christ still says to her, "He who listens to you, listens to me. He who rejects you, rejects me." If a single word that the Church teaches is not the truth, then the Church cannot be the "Pillar and Foundation of truth:" The Body of Christ. Therefore, when I see those words of Christ's, I see great comfort, I see truth divinely upheld, and I see eternal life within my reach.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[mixster]

It seems you folks are indeed saying that salvation is only possible through the Roman Catholic church and obeying the sacremants of your church and this brings me back to my initial question. I do not believe in the Catholic sacremants and will never attend a Catholic church because I do not believe in what you believe so as a Protestant that believes that we are saved according to the Faith in Christ atoning blood by grace plus nothing then do you think I am am saved. and will be in paradise with u. By the way we believe also in works but we believe when we are saved the works will follow but works in itself will not save anyone. Also baptism does not save us and one proof is the thief on the tree beside Jesus was saved and he was not Baptised. And what happens if you ask Jesus into your life and you die on the way to the Baptism. I am not trying to be contrary, but seeking to know what you folks really believe.

 

[nyj]

How do...

I do not believe in the Catholic sacremants and will never attend a Catholic church because I do not believe in what you believe...

and...

... but seeking to know what you folks really believe.

... go together?

Either you know, or you don't. Which one is it?

 

[Michelina]

racer, please do not debate on OBOB.

 

[racer]

racer, please do not debate on OBOB.

Is there no difference between debating and discussing? I have attempted to carefully word my remarks so that they could not be construed as debating.

 

[Michelina]

It seems you folks are indeed saying that salvation is only possible through the Roman Catholic church and obeying the sacraments of your Church and this brings me back to my initial question. I do not believe in the Catholic sacraments and will never attend a Catholic Church because I do not believe in what you believe so as a Protestant that believes that we are saved according to the Faith in Christ atoning blood by grace plus nothing then do you think I am am saved. and will be in paradise with u?

"Do you think I am am saved. and will be in paradise with u?"

You can be saved, mixster. Anyone is a candidate.

This is our Teaching from The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?

Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

So, yes we believe you can be saved. Absolutely.

By the way, we believe also in works but we believe when we are saved the works will follow but works in itself will not save anyone.

We don't believe that works themselves will save anyone but there are some anti-Catholic bigots who say that we do.

What do you think of anti-Catholic bigotry?

Or anti-anything bigotry?

It was good of you to ask these questions here in OBOB, so WE can tell you what we believe. You really shouldn't listen to all the Disinformation out there about us.

Thanks for your questions. Keep them coming, mixster.

 

[isshinwhat]

It seems you folks are indeed saying that salvation is only possible through the Roman Catholic church and obeying the sacremants of your church...

It is, but you must understand what we mean by that. First, all those who enter Heaven will do so through Jesus, correct? Second, all who enter Heaven are members of the Body of Christ. Since we believe that the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, then all who enter Heaven do so through Her, and are members of Her.

That then brings us to the question of who are members of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches in Lumen Gentium

"It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, "allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank."

The Fathers of the Church go on to say in Declaration on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church – Dominus Iesus

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

...those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.

God Bless,

Neal