Basic E&M question

[quatona]

Yeah maybe I could become the patron saint of guitar smashers, unless Pete Townshend already has the position.

Except he didn´t have those noble motives of trying to bring out the worst in people for a "greater good".

 

[Resha Caner]

Surely both of you have tastebuds that respond to both stimuli. The question about how much you like one versus the other is a subjective experience that you each experience directly.

Yes, of course. But why is our subjective experience different? That's what I was asking.

Here's a good place to start...
The Science Behind How We Taste

So it's all determined by a combination of genetics and environment?

 

[Ana the Ist]

No I don't, and it'd be great if you could explain how opinions work, but first could you answer the question you avoided?

What question is that? I looked back and didn't see any questions that I didn't answer.

So you do know people who think pushing little old ladies for no reason is noble?

Personally? No...but it wouldn't surprise me that they exist. Remember the "knockout game" that was in the news a couple of decades ago? Kids running around beating people up for no real reason?

Where'd that goalpost go? We were talking about abortion, where the person doesn't get to choose.

What goalposts? Look at your statement above..."regardless of circumstances"....did you mean to write "regardless of the circumstances of an abortion"? Or did you really mean "regardless of circumstances"?

You understand how arguendo works, don't you?

No...I don't speak Latin.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So it's all determined by a combination of genetics and environment?

And experience...did you read the section regarding acquired tastes?

 

[Resha Caner]

And experience...did you read the section regarding acquired tastes?

How is that separable from genetics and environment? Isn't experience just the historic accumulation of genetics and environment?

But, whatever, I'll add that to my question if you insist ... hoping you'll answer this time ... So it's all determined by a combination of genetics, environment, and experience?

 

[Ana the Ist]

How is that separable from genetics and environment? Isn't experience just the historic accumulation of genetics and environment?

But, whatever, I'll add that to my question if you insist ... hoping you'll answer this time ... So it's all determined by a combination of genetics, environment, and experience?

Which flavors you prefer? Yes.

 

[Chesterton]

Except he didn´t have those noble motives of trying to bring out the worst in people for a "greater good".

Oh, he's probably a good guy, don't be so hard on him.

What question is that? I looked back and didn't see any questions that I didn't answer.

Either one of these:

Do you think my "opinion" could be right or wrong, or is it just like choosing a milkshake flavor?
or
Why do you disagree with my opinion?

Personally? No...but it wouldn't surprise me that they exist. Remember the "knockout game" that was in the news a couple of decades ago? Kids running around beating people up for no real reason?

Yeah, how come none of them ever stayed around at the scene expecting to receive some honors? How come nobody offered to give them honors?

What goalposts? Look at your statement above..."regardless of circumstances"....did you mean to write "regardless of the circumstances of an abortion"? Or did you really mean "regardless of circumstances"?

Yes, "of an abortion". That's what you were talking about.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Either one of these:

Do you think my "opinion" could be right or wrong, or is it just like choosing a milkshake flavor?
or
Why do you disagree with my opinion?

I thought I answered both of those....

1. This is a false dichotomy. Those aren't the only two options. I don't think your opinion on a moral matter can be "factually" proven right or wrong...if that's what you mean.

2. I disagree with your opinion because it doesn't match mine...again, that's how opinions work. When our opinions match, we agree...when our opinions don't match, we disagree. Make sense?

Maybe you meant to ask me for my opinion...which isn't the same question. Do you want to know my opinion? Is that what you're asking?

Yeah, how come none of them ever stayed around at the scene expecting to receive some honors? How come nobody offered to give them honors?

My guess is that they knew their little game was against the law.

Yes, "of an abortion". That's what you were talking about.

Well why would you think that? You said yourself that situations are almost always a factor in morality, what makes abortion an exception?

 

[Resha Caner]

Which flavors you prefer? Yes.

That prompts at least 2 questions, but I'm afraid the conversation will fray should I ask more than 1 straight off. So, just this one for now: Since our tastes are determined by known quantities, your preference for vanilla and mine for chocolate can be predicted, yes?

 

[Ana the Ist]

That prompts at least 2 questions, but I'm afraid the conversation will fray should I ask more than 1 straight off. So, just this one for now: Since our tastes are determined by known quantities, your preference for vanilla and mine for chocolate can be predicted, yes?

I suppose predictions could be made concerning biology and environment, but I don't see how you could hope to factor in someone's "experience" with foods...so some accuracy would be lost.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That prompts at least 2 questions, but I'm afraid the conversation will fray should I ask more than 1 straight off. So, just this one for now: Since our tastes are determined by known quantities, your preference for vanilla and mine for chocolate can be predicted, yes?

I'm thinking the conversation has already frayed...since I only offered up the analogy of "preferring one flavor to another" being like morality in that they're both opinions...not because I think they're opinions that are formed the same way.

If I had to guess, I'd say the factors that go into forming someone's opinion on a moral choice are a fair bit more complex than the factors involved in someone's preference for vanilla.

If you'd like to continue though, be my guest...

 

[quatona]

But, whatever, I'll add that to my question if you insist ... hoping you'll answer this time ... So it's all determined by a combination of genetics, environment, and experience?

So what other determining factors of personal taste should be added, in your opinion, and/or which one of them should be included?

 

[quatona]

Oh, he's probably a good guy, don't be so hard on him.

I just pointed out that he didn´t have the same motives. So, better not project your value judgements on me.

Anyway, I still would like to learn what it would look like if your "philosophical experiment" (coming over and smashing one of the guitars) would be "successful". IOW, the logic behind this "philosophical experiment" and the criteria for "success".

 

[Resha Caner]

I suppose predictions could be made concerning biology and environment, but I don't see how you could hope to factor in someone's "experience" with foods...so some accuracy would be lost.

Suppose? If you know those are the factors, then some scientific relationship was established (per the article you quoted), and you certainly should be able to make predictions. A theory without predictive power is not a scientific theory.

Saying you can't factor in experience is to say there is significant noise involved. But what noise? You can claim it is simply that you don't know a person's experience, but that is a cop out. If a physicist were to say they know the reason for Mercury's precession, but they can't measure the factors involved so they can't prove it, you would reject their claim.

Upon the same principle, the claim here needs to be rejected - or at least acceptance needs to be withheld. I don't doubt genetics and environment are factors, further that the effects of those factors can be demonstrated, but I've not seen anything to say they (and experience) are the only factors. So I have no reason to accept our taste preferences (or morals) are determined.

If you'd like to continue though, be my guest...

This signals to me you're not going to put any effort into this conversation. OK. But if you do continue the next step would be to quantitatively define this term "experience". I made a suggestion in post #105, but you will need to explain what you (or the scientists you reference) mean by it.

 

[Resha Caner]

So what other determining factors of personal taste should be added, in your opinion, and/or which one of them should be included?

As I noted to Ana, I accept genetics and environment as factors. I just haven't seen good reason to think they are the only factors. I'm not offering another factor, but simply stating it does not appear those have been locked down as the only ones. As such, it seems to me we should remain open to the possibility some other factor exists.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yes, of course. But why is our subjective experience different? That's what I was asking.

Because people are not identical.

 

[Resha Caner]

Because people are not identical.

Kick the can down the road. If you don't want to explain your answer, don't post.

 

[quatona]

As I noted to Ana, I accept genetics and environment as factors. I just haven't seen good reason to think they are the only factors. I'm not offering another factor, but simply stating it does not appear those have been locked down as the only ones. As such, it seems to me we should remain open to the possibility some other factor exists.

Yeah, we can be open for such a possibility. Since, however, such factors apparently can´t even be hypothesized, we can´t even consider them, and "being open to their possibility" is pretty much academic and without any practical significance or consequence. Particularly since from the top of my head I can´t come up with any factor that doesn´t fall into one of the rather broad and generic categories genetics, environment and experience.

 

[Resha Caner]

Yeah, we can be open for such a possibility. Since, however, such factors apparently can´t even be hypothesized, we can´t even consider them, and "being open to their possibility" is pretty much academic and without any practical significance or consequence.

At this point I don't see the difference between Ana's "experience" and any other hypothetical gremlin, so there's no practical consequence or value to the studies he indicated. Maybe, however, you will choose to enlighten me.

Particularly since from the top of my head I can´t come up with any factor that doesn´t fall into one of the rather broad and generic categories genetics, environment and experience.

Maybe if you tried ...

 

[quatona]

At this point I don't see the difference between Ana's "experience" and any other hypothetical gremlin,

Well, there is a difference between a hypothetical gremlin and no hypothetical gremlin.

Maybe if you tried ...

Since you - the one who postulates the potential existence of such factors - can´t even come up with an example, I am not sure what the point would be for me to try.

So, yeah, I am open for the possibility...and being aware that we do not know everything is the very basis of science.

In the meantime (in lack of any actual idea) I guess science is left with working with actually presentable hypotheses.