Basic E&M question

[OldWiseGuy]

Lol you're practically a paragon of virtue Old...

I humbly accept the insightful and well deserved compliment.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah you guys always say that until someone murders you.

I can't tell if this is a joke or what...

People don't do a whole lot of talking after being murdered, so pretty much anything is something someone says "until they're murdered".

But to make a point, I'd bet there's a huge difference in opinions on this site alone on merely the matter of legal abortion being an "injustice" or not....

And since no one would be able to prove their position as they can prove 2+2=4...it would seem that your attempt at a tautology falls a little flat.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Right. But I'm trying, and making the effort to stop it. I have reasonable success at it, but am not perfect by any means.

Well I'm at a loss again Divide lol...it seems you agree with me that no one ever completely stops lying in their lifetime. It also seems that you believe no liars get into heaven.

Wouldn't those two things make heaven a rather empty place?

 

[Chesterton]

Not sure where you detected me finding fault with anything here. I just recognized how a question was loaded with a premise I do not hold. How´s that putting anyone at fault?

If you reject the premise I assume it's because you find some fault with it.

When you say
"Morality and math also have this in common: they are external to the mind. We don't invent them, we discover them.", you have mentioned an alternative yourself. So how much more clarification is needed when I say that I don´t buy into this premise?

Just trying to get you to share a bit more.

Chesterton, if you have an axe to grind with me, just PM me. Please don´t use and derail my threads for getting personal things off your chest. Thank you.

Please answer this: why can't I use and derail your thread?

Yeah, having been murdered will reliably stop me from saying anything.

That reminds me, how are you getting along with your talkative teammate? Find a way to handle it?

What's "justice"...?

Justice, justice, let's see...ah, justice is the seventh month of the calendar year, following eggplant and preceding scuba, named for the Canadian god Larry.

Wait a minute, that can't be right. Darn it! Why do they make these dictionaries so hard to use?

I can't tell if this is a joke or what...

People don't do a whole lot of talking after being murdered, so pretty much anything is something someone says "until they're murdered".

My point is that when you suffer injustice, you'll know it, and you'll say it.

But to make a point, I'd bet there's a huge difference in opinions on this site alone on merely the matter of legal abortion being an "injustice" or not....

And since no one would be able to prove their position as they can prove 2+2=4...it would seem that your attempt at a tautology falls a little flat.

Only the baby's opinion ultimately matters. If you could ask the baby how it feels about getting sliced up and sucked into a tube by some stranger, how do you think it'd answer?

 

[Allandavid]

Justice, justice, let's see...ah, justice is the seventh month of the calendar year, following eggplant and preceding scuba, named for the Canadian god Larry.

Wait a minute, that can't be right. Darn it! Why do they make these dictionaries so hard to use?

Ah yes...you wouldn't be the first person who has confined his understanding to the literal definition in a dictionary...

So try this...

In 1972, prior to the relevant legislation, it was illegal to procure an abortion. People could be sent to jail. In 1974, a year after the legislation, abortions could be procured without penalty.

Please explain how 'justice' was applied here...

 

[Chesterton]

Ah yes...you wouldn't be the first person who has confined his understanding to the literal definition in a dictionary...

Yeah there was an interesting thread on definitions in the Apologetics forum recently. Sorry I'm not an anarchist.

So try this...

In 1972, prior to the relevant legislation, it was illegal to procure an abortion. People could be sent to jail. In 1974, a year after the legislation, abortions could be procured without penalty.

Please explain how 'justice' was applied here...

How it was applied? I don't understand the question.

 

[Allandavid]

How it was applied? I don't understand the question.

It's quite simple. Tell me how the concept of 'justice', as you understand it, was applied in the example I provided. Two identical behaviours, separated only by time, receive two completely different consequences. Is justice taking place here...?

 

[Ana the Ist]

My point is that when you suffer injustice, you'll know it, and you'll say it.

I suppose you could say that I would know my opinion on the matter. It would be similar to the way I know I like vanilla milkshakes, or that I know it's a pretty day outside.

This is far apart from the way I know 2+2=4.

Only the baby's opinion ultimately matters. If you could ask the baby how it feels about getting sliced up and sucked into a tube by some stranger, how do you think it'd answer?

I can ask...but I sincerely doubt an unborn child is capable of forming such opinions. I mean, imagine all you would need to explain...it's an interesting question though. Would you want to be born to a mother, or parents, who didn't want you, for whatever reason? Would you want to be born to a mother who would resent you for the rest of your life? Would you want to be born knowing that you'll be severely mentally andor physically disabled? These are large questions for a baby to weigh...but I can say, with certainty, that there's multiple circumstances in which the answer would be "no"...I would not want to be born.

What's really strange though is that in this particular instance you think it's the baby's opinion which matters....why? If we were talking about a situation where someone broke into someone's house to steal things and the homeowner shoots them (as is legal in many states even when the intruder is unarmed...and let's assume that he is)...is it the intruder's opinion which matters? How about when one nation declares war upon another and invades them...are the people of the invaded nation the one's who's opinions matter?

Please, show your math in reply to these questions...if you answer them the same way you did the abortion question, then your responses end up being entirely subjective.

 

[quatona]

If you reject the premise I assume it's because you find some fault with it.

Ah, you meant merely "I don´t agree with the premise." Ok.
I didn´t criticize it, I didn´t discuss or debate it - I merely pointed out that that´s useful information, in that it shows why I can´t answer questions such as mentioned in the OP.

Just trying to get you to share a bit more.

Generally, I appreciate interest in my opinions.
The way you did it, however, I didn´t feel particularly invited. (Maybe if you reread all your posts in this thread, you get an idea why that is.)
On another note, this thread was me asking a question. (And the answer you gave finally was very helpful - thank you again!).

Please answer this: why can't I use and derail your thread?

Obviously you do can, and I didn´t say you can´t.
Rather, I asked you kindly to abstain from doing it.
(If, however, you meant to ask why the administration of CF made such a rule - you would have to ask them.)

That reminds me, how are you getting along with your talkative teammate? Find a way to handle it?

Problem solved itself - I am in a different team now.
But recently I took a journey to Rumania. First we spent two day on a hike through the mountains; when we got there a guy asked us if we´d walk together. Turned out he would talk non-stop for the entire two days. ("OH, HOW I LOVE THE SILENCE IN THE MOUNTAINS!!!!", in a cutting, twangy voice. You get the idea.)
Seems like we can´t simply escape our issues.

My point is that when you suffer injustice, you'll know it, and you'll say it.

...unless when you don´t operate with these concepts (and I really do understand that that´s hard to imagine for you).

 

[Divide]

I don't think anyone "stops lying" in their lifetime...and anyone who believes that they have is probably lying to themselves.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you sound like you want it cut and dried, or possibly are wanting it to be something that we can't do so shouldn't try?

You're prolly right in what you said, I have not stopped lying. I have however, stopped myself from lying in a few circumstances. I found a different way to answer that didn't have to be a lie, even though I did not reveal truths that I didn't want to reveal.

You or I may not be able to stop lying completely in this lifetime on earth. But it doesn't mean that we should not try to stop lying. Do not justify lying. Do not embrace lying. It is not a tool to be used.

I believe that it is a dangerous thing for people to justify lying or to hold it in their heart as something that is ok in some circumstances.

 

[Divide]

My grandmother used to say, "Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies."

My ex-girlfriend used to say that. I'm not with her anymore, lol. My ex-wife was a compulsive liar. She would lie about the littlest things. Things that don't have to be lied about. I understand where it comes from, a learned mindset that one learns growing up...if you want to keep what you have, usually...lol.

As I grow older, I notice that lying is changing upon the face of it. People will stand there and lie to your face...even when you know better (and they know that), but they'll look you in the eye and lie anyway, and it's like...you are expected to believe them, and if you don't believe them, then you are a troublemaker and an A-hole. Whats'a matter don't you trust me?!

I'm learning to deal with this kind. Loan them money or whatever on the promise, I'll pay you back Friday when I get paid...ok. Friday comes, here comes an idiotic story of why they can't pay you back now. So next Friday, ok. Next Friday, another story, more lies that only an idiot would believe. Press them for the money, you said you'd pay me back Friday...then they get mad at you for stirring up trouble. I just need my money back. Eventually they will pay me back, but it's usually not for a couple months because they like to play the priority card too, well, the wife and kids blah blah blah...ok.

Next time he came over trying to borrow money I said no because you don't pay me back when you say you're going to...Then it's oh no oh no I wanted to pay you back but things happened that wasn't my fault and beyond my control...I felt so bad for not being able to keep my word to you...bla blah blah...

So I said, well I can't let you borrow any more money because you have such bad luck and you prolly wouldn't be ABLE TO pay me back. I feel so bad that I can't loan money to my friend, because he has such bad luck. Checkmate, lol.

 

[Divide]

Well I'm at a loss again Divide lol...it seems you agree with me that no one ever completely stops lying in their lifetime. It also seems that you believe no liars get into heaven.

Wouldn't those two things make heaven a rather empty place?

Scripture does say more people find the wide gate than the narrow one. It seems that you are correct in what you said about me and what I believe. People probably can not get away from ever lying, and yet...no liars in heaven. I think that does cover it.

What it all amounts to, is how one holds it in their heart about lying. It's about either one walks in honor in their heart or they do not. If you find that lying is a useful tool, then (to me), you would be an untrustworthy individual. We shouldn't cut corners in having honor. People do not have to lie, they just need to choose their words more carefully. To me, it's more about the man and not about the law or God.

I think even atheists want to be viewed as good people, honest, trustworthy and all that. That's having honor. That's a condition of ones heart, having honor. That no liars in heaven is true because even those that make it and had still lied...did it under conscience, under duress of the flesh, but the mans heart was one that had honor.

Like Paul said, it is not I but the sin in my flesh that doeth it. (something like that). I may have to lie here or there. I'll try not to, but it might be necessary for one reason or another. But I abhore it and feel bad about it. That's not me.

Truth is always better. I stressed this to my wife of 26 years. Always telling the truth to your spouse does two huge things for you both. If something bad happens, don't lie about it, I need to know the real score so I know how to deal with the situation and not off in la la land wasting effort on a non-existent situation that was a lie. The second thing is that, no matter what the score is, I can depend on the fact that what comes out of your mouth is truth no matter how bad.

 

[Chesterton]

It's quite simple. Tell me how the concept of 'justice', as you understand it, was applied in the example I provided. Two identical behaviours, separated only by time, receive two completely different consequences. Is justice taking place here...?

Ever heard the expression "the law is an ass"? Anyway, I still don't understand. Are you asking me if I agree with the decision? No, I don't. It was a blatant violation of the 10th Amendment. Wasn't the first, wasn't the last.

I suppose you could say that I would know my opinion on the matter. It would be similar to the way I know I like vanilla milkshakes, or that I know it's a pretty day outside.

This is far apart from the way I know 2+2=4.

You don't think murder is wrong?

Opinions can change. I used to be a lot more conservative than I am now. There was a time I didn't like asparagus at all, and for some reason now I like it. So maybe someday I could come to approve of unjustified homicide?

I can ask...but I sincerely doubt an unborn child is capable of forming such opinions. I mean, imagine all you would need to explain...it's an interesting question though. Would you want to be born to a mother, or parents, who didn't want you, for whatever reason? Would you want to be born to a mother who would resent you for the rest of your life? Would you want to be born knowing that you'll be severely mentally andor physically disabled? These are large questions for a baby to weigh...but I can say, with certainty, that there's multiple circumstances in which the answer would be "no"...I would not want to be born.

Seriously, you'd try to explain? I can see you as a Nazi prison camp guard trying to explain to the Jew on his way to the gas chamber - "Ah, well. It's complicated. Why'd you want to be born in a Germany that didn't want you anyway?" Almost seems like you're adding insult to injury.

What's really strange though is that in this particular instance you think it's the baby's opinion which matters....why? If we were talking about a situation where someone broke into someone's house to steal things and the homeowner shoots them (as is legal in many states even when the intruder is unarmed...and let's assume that he is)...is it the intruder's opinion which matters? How about when one nation declares war upon another and invades them...are the people of the invaded nation the one's who's opinions matter?

Yes of course everyone's opinions matter. Haven't you ever done anything wrong? You knew it was wrong when you did it, or later evaluated it and came to understand it was wrong?

Please, show your math in reply to these questions...if you answer them the same way you did the abortion question, then your responses end up being entirely subjective.

What do you want me to show exactly? Yes, the responses are subjective to being human. There's no other way to perceive anything.

Ah, you meant merely "I don´t agree with the premise." Ok.
I didn´t criticize it, I didn´t discuss or debate it - I merely pointed out that that´s useful information, in that it shows why I can´t answer questions such as mentioned in the OP.

Right, you didn't criticize, discuss or debate. I'm just saying I'd like it if you did.

The way you did it, however, I didn´t feel particularly invited. (Maybe if you reread all your posts in this thread, you get an idea why that is.)

Please answer: Was I rude?

Obviously you do can, and I didn´t say you can´t.
Rather, I asked you kindly to abstain from doing it.
(If, however, you meant to ask why the administration of CF made such a rule - you would have to ask them.)

Before the question, I requested "Please answer this" and you didn't. So, why did you ask me to abstain from using and derailing your thread? (Pretend I'm a space alien.)

("OH, HOW I LOVE THE SILENCE IN THE MOUNTAINS!!!!", in a cutting, twangy voice. You get the idea.)

...unless when you don´t operate with these concepts (and I really do understand that that´s hard to imagine for you).

Yes, it's hard, which is why I'm curious about it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

My ex-girlfriend used to say that. I'm not with her anymore, lol. My ex-wife was a compulsive liar. She would lie about the littlest things. Things that don't have to be lied about. I understand where it comes from, a learned mindset that one learns growing up...if you want to keep what you have, usually...lol.

As I grow older, I notice that lying is changing upon the face of it. People will stand there and lie to your face...even when you know better (and they know that), but they'll look you in the eye and lie anyway, and it's like...you are expected to believe them, and if you don't believe them, then you are a troublemaker and an A-hole. Whats'a matter don't you trust me?!

I'm learning to deal with this kind. Loan them money or whatever on the promise, I'll pay you back Friday when I get paid...ok. Friday comes, here comes an idiotic story of why they can't pay you back now. So next Friday, ok. Next Friday, another story, more lies that only an idiot would believe. Press them for the money, you said you'd pay me back Friday...then they get mad at you for stirring up trouble. I just need my money back. Eventually they will pay me back, but it's usually not for a couple months because they like to play the priority card too, well, the wife and kids blah blah blah...ok.

Next time he came over trying to borrow money I said no because you don't pay me back when you say you're going to...Then it's oh no oh no I wanted to pay you back but things happened that wasn't my fault and beyond my control...I felt so bad for not being able to keep my word to you...bla blah blah...

So I said, well I can't let you borrow any more money because you have such bad luck and you prolly wouldn't be ABLE TO pay me back. I feel so bad that I can't loan money to my friend, because he has such bad luck. Checkmate, lol.

In my grandmother's case it was her way of telling me not to concern myself with things that don't pertain to me (mind my own business if you will).

 

[Allandavid]

Ever heard the expression "the law is an ass"? Anyway, I still don't understand. Are you asking me if I agree with the decision? No, I don't. It was a blatant violation of the 10th Amendment. Wasn't the first, wasn't the last.

Interesting isn't it...?

Here is the person that claims that justice/injustice is such a simple concept that we can easily understand it from a dictionary definition. Yet, this is the third time you have been unable to provide an application of 'justice' to my example...

 

[quatona]

Right, you didn't criticize, discuss or debate.

That´s why your wording "I found fault" with others´ post inaccurate.

I'm just saying I'd like it if you did.

Well, to be precise, you spoke as though I had.
Your wish is noted, but I would like you to understand that this wasn´t meant to be a debate thread.

Please answer: Was I rude?

That´s another question which can only be answered on your terms, those of a moral objectivist.
I said and say it on my terms: The way you went about it I didn´t feel invited.

Before the question, I requested "Please answer this" and you didn't.

Well, I did.

So, why did you ask me to abstain from using and derailing your thread? (Pretend I'm a space alien.)

Because I didn´t want my thread derailed.

Yes, it's hard, which is why I'm curious about it.

It appears to be futile to explain when the invitation to explain it comes as a statement of knowledge about how I would react and feel. Sorry, doesn´t look like curiosity to me.

 

[Chesterton]

Interesting isn't it...?

Here is the person that claims that justice/injustice is such a simple concept that we can easily understand it from a dictionary definition. Yet, this is the third time you have been unable to provide an application of 'justice' to my example...

Again, you want me "to provide an application of justice". What does that even mean? I told you the decision was unjust. I don't know what else you want.

Well, to be precise, you spoke as though I had.
Your wish is noted, but I would like you to understand that this wasn´t meant to be a debate thread.

Okay, but I mean it to be a debate thread. Who are you to say it shouldn't be? Do you remember your "Private Property" thread? Are you going to say this thread is "yours"?

That´s another question which can only be answered on your terms, those of a moral objectivist.

Correct. I'd also say that "I didn't feel invited" is likewise a statement which can only be made on my terms. Do you think people should be nice and polite to each other?

I said and say it on my terms: The way you went about it I didn´t feel invited.

What are your terms? (I'm sure you won't answer, but I'm sitting here typing, might as well ask.)

Well, I did.

Because I didn´t want my thread derailed.

But what if I want to derail it? We have competing "wants", and there's no external basis to decide that one is superior to the other, so I can derail all I want, yes? No?

It appears to be futile to explain when the invitation to explain it comes as a statement of knowledge about how I would react and feel. Sorry, doesn´t look like curiosity to me.

We'll never know if it's futile if you never try.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You don't think murder is wrong?

Opinions can change. I used to be a lot more conservative than I am now. There was a time I didn't like asparagus at all, and for some reason now I like it. So maybe someday I could come to approve of unjustified homicide?

Yeah maybe...I can come up with a few situations where I don't think murder is wrong.

Seriously, you'd try to explain? I can see you as a Nazi prison camp guard trying to explain to the Jew on his way to the gas chamber - "Ah, well. It's complicated. Why'd you want to be born in a Germany that didn't want you anyway?" Almost seems like you're adding insult to injury.

Yes, I would explain....since we're talking about a hypothetical situation where some unborn baby can not only comprehend it's existence, but it's death, I feel like it's a safe assumption that it might want to know why it's abortion is being considered.

I'm not sure why that's so uncomfortable for you. Surely you weren't under the impression that every woman shamed out of an abortion...or simply pressured into keeping her baby...ends up being super happy that she kept the baby? Or was it because you considered the options of death before birth and a lifetime of struggling with a severe mental disability...and you realized that you might choose death?

What exactly is your problem with my answer?

Yes of course everyone's opinions matter. Haven't you ever done anything wrong? You knew it was wrong when you did it, or later evaluated it and came to understand it was wrong?

I can't say I've ever done something that I thought was wrong...at the time I did it. I've done things that I knew others would consider wrong, and I've changed my mind later about things that I've done and decided I shouldn't have done them...at least not the way I did them.

I don't see what point you're trying to make here though.


What do you want me to show exactly? Yes, the responses are subjective to being human. There's no other way to perceive anything.



Right, you didn't criticize, discuss or debate. I'm just saying I'd like it if you did.


Please answer: Was I rude?


Before the question, I requested "Please answer this" and you didn't. So, why did you ask me to abstain from using and derailing your thread? (Pretend I'm a space alien.)





Yes, it's hard, which is why I'm curious about it.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ana the Ist]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you sound like you want it cut and dried, or possibly are wanting it to be something that we can't do so shouldn't try?

You're prolly right in what you said, I have not stopped lying. I have however, stopped myself from lying in a few circumstances. I found a different way to answer that didn't have to be a lie, even though I did not reveal truths that I didn't want to reveal.

You or I may not be able to stop lying completely in this lifetime on earth. But it doesn't mean that we should not try to stop lying. Do not justify lying. Do not embrace lying. It is not a tool to be used.

I believe that it is a dangerous thing for people to justify lying or to hold it in their heart as something that is ok in some circumstances.

So you believe heaven is basically empty? Except for babies (who can't speak so don't lie) or those with serious mental disorders (which prevent them from speaking)?

 

[Chesterton]

Yeah maybe...I can come up with a few situations where I don't think murder is wrong.

Want to share?

Yes, I would explain....since we're talking about a hypothetical situation where some unborn baby can not only comprehend it's existence, but it's death, I feel like it's a safe assumption that it might want to know why it's abortion is being considered.

I'm not sure why that's so uncomfortable for you. Surely you weren't under the impression that every woman shamed out of an abortion...or simply pressured into keeping her baby...ends up being super happy that she kept the baby? Or was it because you considered the options of death before birth and a lifetime of struggling with a severe mental disability...and you realized that you might choose death?

What exactly is your problem with my answer?

My problem: I asked you what you thought the baby's opinion of getting killed might be, and instead of answering that directly, you responded like "well I'm sure he would listen to reason if I just explained all the facts, etc.". So I assume you already agree that the baby wouldn't care for the idea of being killed, since your first instinct seems to be giving him a sales pitch on why it's necessary.

I can't say I've ever done something that I thought was wrong...at the time I did it. I've done things that I knew others would consider wrong, and I've changed my mind later about things that I've done and decided I shouldn't have done them...at least not the way I did them.

I don't see what point you're trying to make here though.

Just that everyone knows wrong, whether they are the victim or the perpetrator.