Basic E&M question

[quatona]

So this is taken from another thread that I don´t want to derail.
(Lies are sinful...always?)

A poster asked me:
So how do you determine what is morally right or wrong?

Me:
I don´t.

Him:
So is nothing morally right or wrong for you?

Me:
Can you explain what you mean by "morally right or wrong", so that I can try to answer your question according to your concepts?​

Upon which he disappeared.​

It seems we (non-Christians) get questions like his a lot here (mostly from theists/Christians), and I always have the feeling they must be based on some unmentioned premises, preassumptions or concepts that I don´t share (and to be quite frank, on top I get the impression that those premise are identical with the conclusions they are about to draw), and that that´s the reason why I don´t know how to answer them.
Is anybody else here willing to explain to me from scratch what they mean when they say "morally right or wrong (to me)"?

 

[Ygrene Imref]

-_-'

I thought this was an electricity and magnetism question.

 

[inquiring mind]

So this is taken from another thread that I don´t want to derail.
(Lies are sinful...always?)

A poster asked me:
So how do you determine what is morally right or wrong?

Me:
I don´t.

Him:
So is nothing morally right or wrong for you?

Me:
Can you explain what you mean by "morally right or wrong", so that I can try to answer your question according to your concepts?​

Upon which he disappeared.​

It seems we (non-Christians) get questions like his a lot here (mostly from theists/Christians), and I always have the feeling they must be based on some unmentioned premises, preassumptions or concepts that I don´t share (and to be quite frank, on top I get the impression that those premise are identical with the conclusions they are about to draw), and that that´s the reason why I don´t know how to answer them.
Is anybody else here willing to explain to me from scratch what they mean when they say "morally right or wrong (to me)"?

I’m not interested in a debate, but I think Paul described a pretty good standard of conduct in Philippians 4:8: “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”

 

[Ygrene Imref]

The thing is morality is entirely subjective, because it is a set of principles for entities that die. Those principles vary on environment of survival - for example, morality on the "outside" is different than morality in prison.

Even Christianity considers "morality" to be ridiculous - entities that don't die (God, angels) do not follow any morality. They have their own set of principles to preserve their immortality rather trying to preserve their life.

Just like free will, morality is an illusion we create to qualify our behavior. It is arbitrary.

 

[quatona]

I’m not interested in a debate, but I think Paul described a pretty good standard of conduct in Philippians 4:8: “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”

Thanks for your response.
I don´t have problems finding out how to conduct, though.

 

[Petros2015]

Hmm. Core to the Christian belief is "Love thy neighbor as thyself". So, we could start there as a moral foundation. It would be the opposite of "take what you can, when you can".

Love thy neighbor as thyself gets into strange territory though if we don't love ourselves correctly. If I have no respect for myself, I have no respect for others. If I am engaging in self-harming activity, then "loving my neighbor as myself" can be the equivalent of harming my neighbor as well.

So "Love thy neighbor" implies that I had better figure out what "Love" is, both for myself and others. It is a lot stronger that "treat others as you want to be treated". I used to joke with regards to my own sexual immorality, "every time I treat others as I want to be treated, someone calls the cops"

1 John 4:8

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

I think that's the bullseye for morality. The more an action is self-centered and takes from others, the more it deviates from God and from love and the more immoral it is. I don't really think of things in terms of black and white (because we live in a grey world) so much as I do a target to shoot for. I think the Greek for "sin" means literally "to miss the mark".

Hope that makes a little sense

 

[AlexDTX]

So this is taken from another thread that I don´t want to derail.
(Lies are sinful...always?)

A poster asked me:
So how do you determine what is morally right or wrong?

Me:
I don´t.

Him:
So is nothing morally right or wrong for you?

Me:
Can you explain what you mean by "morally right or wrong", so that I can try to answer your question according to your concepts?​

Upon which he disappeared.​

It seems we (non-Christians) get questions like his a lot here (mostly from theists/Christians), and I always have the feeling they must be based on some unmentioned premises, preassumptions or concepts that I don´t share (and to be quite frank, on top I get the impression that those premise are identical with the conclusions they are about to draw), and that that´s the reason why I don´t know how to answer them.
Is anybody else here willing to explain to me from scratch what they mean when they say "morally right or wrong (to me)"?

Jane the Bane posed this question in another thread, and this is what I answered her.

The word "morality" as I understand it comes from the word "morays" which refer to the collection of societal beliefs of right and wrong, and as such, vary from culture to culture. There is the famous story of Plymouth Brethren missionaries to Ecuador, Jim Elliot and Nate St. James who took their wives with them to share the Gospel with the Waorani tribe. The Waoranis considered revenge to be a virtue. They murdered the husbands and expected retaliation. Instead the wives forgave them and continued to share the love of Christ with them. This shook up their world view that they embraced Christ as their Savior.

There is in the heart of everyone a sense of right and wrong. Part of the background for the US Constitution is based upon the concept of natural law. Natural are basic things that are universal to all people. No one wants to be murdered. No one wants their stuff stolen. And so on. This implies a sense of ethics that is in the heart of every person, although cultural morays can dull that sense. How can there even be right and wrong unless there are laws of existence that are knowable. Gravity is knowable and it is a law that is constant. The reality that gravity will make you fall if you step off a cliff makes it wrong to step off a cliff, unless you are suicidal. The desire to live is overwhelming in all people, although discouragement can be so great that one no longer desires to live. But that takes a tremendous amount of discouragement. Otherwise it is understood that living is right, or all have the right to live.

Christianity is certainly not the only source of morality, ethics or understanding natural law. But it is purest in that it brings a person in contact with the source of all right and wrong: God.​

To finish this thought I would also add. God created all things according to His own nature. Being eternal He is immutable, which means He can not change. When He speaks, He speaks from eternity which also comes from His immutable nature. In other words, His creation is based upon His own nature so right and wrong as understood by Natural Law, or as expressed by Christ - Do unto others as you would have others do unto you - is rooted in God's own character.

The variety of morays we find in cultures around the world are only the changes of morality due to sin. We live in a fallen world where sin is seen in morality and is further seen as entropy in the physical world that results in death.

 

[quatona]

Hmm. Core to the Christian belief is "Love thy neighbor as thyself". So, we could start there as a moral foundation. It would be the opposite of "take what you can, when you can".

Love thy neighbor as thyself gets into strange territory though if we don't love ourselves correctly. If I have no respect for myself, I have no respect for others. If I am engaging in self-harming activity, then "loving my neighbor as myself" can be the equivalent of harming my neighbor as well.

So "Love thy neighbor" implies that I had better figure out what "Love" is, both for myself and others. It is a lot stronger that "treat others as you want to be treated". I used to joke with regards to my own sexual immorality, "every time I treat others as I want to be treated, someone calls the cops"

1 John 4:8

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

I think that's the bullseye for morality. The more an action is self-centered and takes from others, the more it deviates from God and from love and the more immoral it is. I don't really think of things in terms of black and white (because we live in a grey world) so much as I do a target to shoot for. I think the Greek for "sin" means literally "to miss the mark".

Hope that makes a little sense

Thanks for your response and for explaining what principles you base your conduct upon (it seems to be founded in your god concept, if I understand you correctly).
As I said to another poster, I personally also have my ways of deciding what or what not to do, and how to do it.
However, that didn´t seem to be what the poster was asking about - he spoke about "knowing what is right or wrong" and "determining what´s right or wrong".

 

[quatona]

Thanks for your response!

Jane the Bane posed this question in another thread, and this is what I answered her.

The word "morality" as I understand it comes from the word "morays" which refer to the collection of societal beliefs of right and wrong, and as such, vary from culture to culture.​

So when the poster asks me "How do you determine what´s morally right or wrong?" the appropriate answer would be: "I observe what my culture believes about it."?

There is in the heart of everyone a sense of right and wrong.

So when the poster asks me "How do you know what´s morally right or wrong?" the appropriate answer would be: "I sense it."?​

 

[KnowtheSilence]

It seems to me that the approach you've taken is similar to what I've seen called pluralistic moral reductionism. I think it's a good way to approach conversations about morality when aren't sharing worldviews and probably are talking past each other.

 

[Albion]

The variety of morays we find in cultures around the world are only the changes of morality due to sin. We live in a fallen world where sin is seen in morality and is further seen as entropy in the physical world that results in death.

I'm picturing a bunch of eels gathered from different parts of the world.

 

[Chesterton]

...and I always have the feeling they must be based on some unmentioned premises, preassumptions or concepts that I don´t share...

I'm glad you brought this up, because I've wondered about it. You seem to ask things like this a lot:

• God? What do you mean?
• Why are you capitalizing "Rationality"?
• Can you explain what you mean by morally right or wrong?

I could almost get the impression you're a primitive Amazonian jungle dweller whose last exposure to new human thought was around 10,000 B.C. Are you trying to be Socratic or what?

 

[Petros2015]

So when the poster asks me "How do you know what´s morally right or wrong?" the appropriate answer would be: "I sense it."?

To a degree, but that degree can be lessened over time. In the Eastern Orthodox tradition we view sins as a 'wounding' of the soul. Wound it enough, and the sensitivity decreases. This is a very, very spiritually dangerous cycle. (see my tagline quote from George MacDonald in my signature). Self reflection, prayer, seeking God for insight into sin, scriptural standards, repentance, these things can and do provide healing and turn it in the other direction. I'm also in recovery and follow the 12 Steps.

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

Speaking for myself, of my own nature I did not want to call myself to account before a Higher Power (any Higher Power, let alone God). I did not seek one, I actively fled from and hated the one that I thought I knew. Instead, I just kept lowering my standards to suit my behavior. I would describe it like an alarm bell clanging, but the volume was getting turned down lower and lower, so I would stare at it every now and then and feel uncomfortable. So, I needed a savior, from myself, I found. But I had to get pretty low to get to that realization, and I don't think I 'got it' so much as it was given to me. If you want a moral compass though, seek God as a Higher Power and He will give you one. It will get better and better the more you seek.

Luke 11:9-13

 

[Petros2015]

I'm picturing a bunch of eels gathered from different parts of the world.

 

[Cearbhall]

A poster asked me:
So how do you determine what is morally right or wrong?​

It seems we (non-Christians) get questions like his a lot here (mostly from theists/Christians)

This is concerning to me, because an adult's conception of morality should be quite a bit deeper and self-sufficient than "I don't know, let me check my Holy Manual."

I would ask the question right back at them.

-_-'

I thought this was an electricity and magnetism question.

 

[Earatha]

One of the most fun and most disturbing bit of my philosophical/spiritual journey was constructing a moral philosophy. I started with an objective morality which focused on the good of the individual. But I then thought some more and had to reconsider. What did these words mean? How did I make determinations? What was the most basic set of criteria that I used?

Were they universal?

I've made my own determinations on that, and I'm satisfied for now. It seems to hold up, as uncomfortable as some of the implications are.

 

[AlexDTX]

So when the poster asks me "How do you determine what´s morally right or wrong?" the appropriate answer would be: "I observe what my culture believes about it."?

If you do not know Christ, then, yes. But Christ brings us into relationship with God so that we can know the character and morality of God himself. A Christian has no excuse, but the blind are not faulted that they are blind, only that they refuse to be given sight.

So when the poster asks me "How do you know what´s morally right or wrong?" the appropriate answer would be: "I sense it."?

Combined with your first question for the unregenerate, yes, again. To sense what is right is to follow one's conscience. Even if that conscience is seared, Paul explains in Romans 2 that those who do what is in their conscience but do not know God, they will be judged by their obedience to their conscience. However, if they have been given the opportunity to circumcise their heart through Christ and reject it, then they will be judged on that basis.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You conduct yourself in a certain fashion as you make your way through the world.

Would you agree that there are implicit rules that govern that conduct?

Do these rules have a moral/ethical dimension?

Can you consider hypothetical situations and analyze what motivates your conduct?

You're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that?

----------

A half block away from you, a person with bright pink hair drops a $5 bill. The wind blows it to your feet. The person has now rounded the corner and is no longer visible.

You could conduct yourself in many different ways. You might:

continue on your way
pocket the bill and continue on your way
perform interpretive dance on the topic of wombats
pick up the bill and chase after the person
pocket the bill, continue on your way, and give it to a homeless person you encounter at random

What, if anything, governs your conduct?

----------

Maybe there are some situations where you don't even act, but we can investigate your reaction. You see a large child step in dog poop and a smaller child laughs at him. The larger child then punches the smaller child in the face, knocking him down. How do you feel?

 

[Tinker Grey]

You're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that?

Tortoise? What's that?

 

[AlexDTX]

You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that?

Because you are cooking your dinner.