Baptized in the Spirit and speaking in tongues?

[wonderkins]

That's a real pity. I guess Charismatics are human and susceptible to the flesh as any of us!

To try and answer your question:

The baptism with the Spirit is when you are filled with the Spirit for the first time. Tongues is part of the "toolkit" that comes with the filling of the Spirit. If you use the idea of a motor mechanic. The baptism with the Spirit is like the mechanic receiving his A grade Mechanic's certificate. That makes him a qualified mechanic. When he gets a job as a mechanic, he is given the tools. The tools don't make him a mechanic, but they assist him to do his job effectively.

It is interesting to me to examine Church history, and the Holiness preacher Guy Bevington had a drunk come into his church, and Bevington got him all cleaned up and the guy sobered up and said, "I'm saved now. I'm a Christian!" Bevington said, "No. You've just got religion. You need to be sanctified." He continued in prayer with him until the guy was transformed and truly converted. Methodist Holiness preachers called that the baptism with the Spirit.

Joseph Alleine, the 17th Century Puritan divine, wrote that a person had to seek God until he was genuinely converted, This was the transforming work of the Holy Spirit.

Now the Pentecostals and Charismatics say that the baptism with the Spirit, with or without tongues, entirely transforms a person.

Now thinking about that, i saw that although there are three different ways of naming it, each one has identical results! It seems silly to me that one has to have three experiences to achieve the same result - conversion, baptism with the Spirit, and entire sanctification. What if there is only one experience that transforms a person, and each stage in history it was called "genuine conversion" (17th Century); "entire sanctifcation" (19th Century); "baptism with the Spirit" (20th Century)?

In Acts, the three main examples involved Christian conversion with the baptism with the Spirit, and so my thinking seems to be consistent with those examples.

Interesting...

Its ASE certification in the USA. And mechanics have to supply their own tools. Just saying.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The last word Paul had to say about the subject...

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Forbid not... Don't disallow it!

Well, that bit of 1 Corinthians 14 has not been ripped out of your Bible!

Hey, here's a thought - those who rail at Charismatics and bash them with Cessationist claptrap that discredits tongues, may be in disobedience to the Spirit, because they are effectively forbidding people speaking in tongues by coming up with theologically sounding garbage!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Its ASE certification in the USA. And mechanics have to supply their own tools. Just saying.

Thank you for sharing that with me!

 

[Neogaia777]

The last word Paul had to say about the subject...

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Forbid not... Don't disallow it!

Forbid it or rise up against it when and where is it being abused though also...

But other than that, do not forbid it...

And don't be jealous of those who may truly have it and let that cause you to rise up against them either though, also, just because you may not have it, cause everyone is not meant to have it, that's why there are other gifts, and none of you be jealous or envious of one another because one another's "different" gifts...

Anyway, don't be jealous of those who may truly have it and let that cause you to rise up against them either though, also, just because you may not have it, cause then, you would be the abuser...

Discernment, discernment, discernment...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Forbid it or rise up against it when and where is it being abused though also...

But other than that, do not forbid it...

And don't be jealous of those who may truly have it and let that cause you to rise up against them either though, also, just because you may not have it, cause everyone is not meant to have it, that's why there are other gifts, and none of you be jealous or envious of one another because one another's "different" gifts...

Anyway, don't be jealous of those who may truly have it and let that cause you to rise up against them either though, also, just because you may not have it, cause then, you would be the abuser...

Discernment, discernment, discernment...

God Bless!

If it doesn't seem natural to you then don't do it, but don't hate those that it may seem or be natural to...

Just don't be haters of each other and or abusive towards one another over your differing and different gifts...

Not everyone is all gifted the same or in the same areas...

And we all need to be "cool with that" so to speak...

And get along regardless...

God Bless!

 

[liberty of conscience]

The last word Paul had to say about the subject...

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Forbid not... Don't disallow it!

It is the definition of "tongues" being used that is forbidden. It is a misuse of the actual organ, the tongue and voice box.

Paul is not forbidding the proper and right gift of tongues/languages.

Paul also said,

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

The voice box is a wind and string instrument. If that which is uttered by the voice is not clearly a language, with "distinction", to be understood by those who speak such language, it is not actually "tongues", but gibberish, unintelligible vibrated hot air.

1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

None of the true tongues/languages are without signification, and distinction. English speakers speak to those who understand English, Spanish to those who speak Spanish, etc, etc.

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Notice:

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

The "unlearned" has to do with those who do not understand the language spoken. For instance if I walk into a congregation that speaks in Tamil, I do not understand that language, it is foreign, unknown to me. I am not edified by what is spoken, unless someone were to translate what is said into English, giving a distinction to the words spoken in Tamil. Tamil and English are actual languages/tongues spoken.

What is on that video is not a language. Even an AI program could detect that it is not a language.

 

[Neogaia777]

If it doesn't seem natural to you then don't do it, but don't hate those that it may seem or be natural to...

Just don't be haters of each other and or abusive towards one another over your differing and different gifts...

Not everyone is all gifted the same or in the same areas...

And we all need to be "cool with that" so to speak...

And get along regardless...

God Bless!

The only exception is where and when a gift is being abused or severely misused, for that can be so with "any gift", and for that, and deciding and/or determining that, you'll need very, very careful discernment...

In fact, discernment is a gift too...

God Bless!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Forbid it or rise up against it when and where is it being abused though also...

But other than that, do not forbid it...

And don't be jealous of those who may truly have it and let that cause you to rise up against them either though, also, just because you may not have it, cause everyone is not meant to have it, that's why there are other gifts, and none of you be jealous or envious of one another because one another's "different" gifts...

Anyway, don't be jealous of those who may truly have it and let that cause you to rise up against them either though, also, just because you may not have it, cause then, you would be the abuser...

Discernment, discernment, discernment...

God Bless!

A lot of the opposition to Charismatics and Pentecostals is out of sheer fleshly jealousy dressed up in religious theological garments.

It is because Charismatics and Pentecostals have more fun in their services, they love to laugh, shout, dance, raise their hands in worship, and can sit over an hour to listen to inspiring preachers who make the Bible alive and real to them.

Much better than going to a church, sit like a dour wooden Indian, singing funeral hymns in a funeral style, and getting restless after a boring intellectual preacher has preached his Sunday School Bible lesson for 20 minutes. Then they are gasping for the cup of coffee and biscuit after the service so the benediction can't come fast enough! So they go home not full of the Holy Spirit, but full of coffee and biscuits.

But they have been indoctrinated that if they leave their "funeral" church, they are leaving the body of Christ,and would be too guilty to make their move to a church where Jesus would be more real and Christianity would be more alive and exciting. Or maybe some of these have one foot in the church and the other in the world, and so if they went to a Charismatic service they may be convicted of it and be challenged to a higher standard of holiness, which most Charismatics and Pentecostals see as vitally important.

 

[Neogaia777]

It is the definition of "tongues" being used that is forbidden. It is a misuse of the actual organ, the tongue and voice box.

Paul is not forbidding the proper and right gift of tongues/languages.

Paul also said,

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

The voice box is a wind and string instrument. If that which is uttered by the voice is not clearly a language, with "distinction", to be understood by those who speak such language, it is not actually "tongues", but gibberish, unintelligible vibrated hot air.

1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

None of the true tongues/languages are without signification, and distinction. English speakers speak to those who understand English, Spanish to those who speak Spanish, etc, etc.

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Notice:

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

The "unlearned" has to do with those who do not understand the language spoken. For instance if I walk into a congregation that speaks in Tamil, I do not understand that language, it is foreign, unknown to me. I am not edified by what is spoken, unless someone were to translate what is said into English, giving a distinction to the words spoken in Tamil. Tamil and English are actual languages/tongues spoken.

What is on that video is not a language. Even an AI program could detect that it is not a language.

For discerning the abuse of the use of speaking in tongues, we have to know what the "true speaking in tongues is" from the false...?

God Bless!

 

[rockytopva]

The last word Paul had to say about the subject...

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Forbid not... Don't disallow it!

And Paul says...
1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

However, he wasn't going to use this gift to disrupt a church service. There is though, appropriate places in service for speaking in tongues.

 

[liberty of conscience]

And Paul says...
1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

However, he wasn't going to use this gift to disrupt a church service. There is though, appropriate places in service for speaking in tongues.

Yeah, Paul spoke, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.

Act_21:37 And as Paul was to be led into the castle, he said unto the chief captain, May I speak unto thee? Who said, Canst thou speak Greek?

Act_22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is the definition of "tongues" being used that is forbidden. It is a misuse of the actual organ, the tongue and voice box.

Paul is not forbidding the proper and right gift of tongues/languages.

Paul also said,

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

The voice box is a wind and string instrument. If that which is uttered by the voice is not clearly a language, with "distinction", to be understood by those who speak such language, it is not actually "tongues", but gibberish, unintelligible vibrated hot air.

1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

None of the true tongues/languages are without signification, and distinction. English speakers speak to those who understand English, Spanish to those who speak Spanish, etc, etc.

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Notice:

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

The "unlearned" has to do with those who do not understand the language spoken. For instance if I walk into a congregation that speaks in Tamil, I do not understand that language, it is foreign, unknown to me. I am not edified by what is spoken, unless someone were to translate what is said into English, giving a distinction to the words spoken in Tamil. Tamil and English are actual languages/tongues spoken.

What is on that video is not a language. Even an AI program could detect that it is not a language.

You are ignoring Paul's distinction between private prayer in tongues and speaking out in tongues in church requiring an interpretation.

I guess if you spoke in tongues with an unbelieving heart, you would be insulting the Holy Spirit by speaking gibberish, because according to your faith (or lack of it) be it unto you.

 

[rockytopva]

Yeah, Paul spoke, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.

Act_21:37 And as Paul was to be led into the castle, he said unto the chief captain, May I speak unto thee? Who said, Canst thou speak Greek?

Act_22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

Yes... Tongues of men and angels.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yeah, Paul spoke, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.

Act_21:37 And as Paul was to be led into the castle, he said unto the chief captain, May I speak unto thee? Who said, Canst thou speak Greek?

Act_22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

Scraping the bottom of the Scriptural barrel to try to make a point shows a weak argument. You can't try and cherry pick references out of context and ignore other references that describe what Paul says tongues actually are.

 

[Neogaia777]

A lot of the opposition to Charismatics and Pentecostals is out of sheer fleshly jealousy dressed up in religious theological garments.

It is because Charismatics and Pentecostals have more fun in their services, they love to laugh, shout, dance, raise their hands in worship, and can sit over an hour to listen to inspiring preachers who make the Bible alive and real to them.

Much better than going to a church, sit like a dour wooden Indian, singing funeral hymns in a funeral style, and getting restless after a boring intellectual preacher has preached his Sunday School Bible lesson for 20 minutes. Then they are gasping for the cup of coffee and biscuit after the service so the benediction can't come fast enough! So they go home not full of the Holy Spirit, but full of coffee and biscuits.

But they have been indoctrinated that if they leave their "funeral" church, they are leaving the body of Christ,and would be too guilty to make their move to a church where Jesus would be more real and Christianity would be more alive and exciting. Or maybe some of these have one foot in the church and the other in the world, and so if they went to a Charismatic service they may be convicted of it and be challenged to a higher standard of holiness, which most Charismatics and Pentecostals see as vitally important.

I don't think I have the gift of speaking in tongues, at least, not yet, but I don't hate those that do or do it, or that like to shout, dance, ect in a church service...

But right now, I don't know if that's just "for me" right now or not... I like teaching and knowledge and instructional things, for the most part, however I will sing and clap my hands to a song, maybe move my feet and body a little bit, during a songtime or something...

But, I'm a lover of knowledge and instruction and advice, ect, and wisdom for living this life, ect, for the most part...

So, while I may not go to a Pentecostal or overly Charismatic church, does mean I hate them or think they are wrong in their form of worship or anything like that... However, I think they should return the same to someone like me as well, and not think me false or not having the Spirit cause I'm not like them, and don't worship like they do, ect...

And that can be a problem sometimes... Instead of elevating ourselves over one another and judging and/or hating, or criticizing and/or condemning one another, and getting puffed up over one another and each other in our differences in worship, thinking they are the only true ones, and the other is false, ect... "anytime that happens", "anywhere" your form of worship and your church gets corrupted real quick...

God Bless!

 

[wonderkins]

Scraping the bottom of the Scriptural barrel to try to make a point shows a weak argument. You can't try and cherry pick references out of context and ignore other references that describe what Paul says tongues actually are.

According to Acts, what were tongues?

 

[liberty of conscience]

For discerning the abuse of the use of speaking in tongues, we have to know what the "true speaking in tongues is" from the false...?

God Bless!

It is simple and defined by scripture.

Gen_10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Gen_11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Gen_11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Gen_11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Gen_11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

"tongue" is directly tied to "language" and "speech" and "understand".

God speaking about the Babylonians, Romans (and others):

Deu_28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

This is all through the Bible, the Hebrew tongue, the Syrian tongue, etc:

Ezr_4:7 And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.

Rev_9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (referring to the OT (Hebrew) and NT (Greek) texts on Satan, the destroyer)

Notice the word "interpreted" connected with "tongue" and "writing".

The gift of "tongues" was given at Pentecost because there were devout Jews from every nation present in Jerusalem for the feasts (with differing languages present at Pentecost) and they all needed to understand what was going on in their own mother languages and it even lists them. They all understood the works of God.

 

[liberty of conscience]

Yes... Tongues of men and angels.

There is no scripture which says Paul spoke the tongue of Angels.

Do angels have tongues in the mouths to speak a language and do they have a language? Of course. Daniel heard and understood Gabriel speak to him. Angels have their own language. Angels speak to other angels (Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? Dan 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?). They are real beings. They don't go around speaking gibberish which is not a language.

 

[rockytopva]

It is simple and defined by scripture.

Gen_10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

Gen_11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Gen_11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Gen_11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Gen_11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

"tongue" is directly tied to "language" and "speech" and "understand".

God speaking about the Babylonians, Romans (and others):

Deu_28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

This is all through the Bible, the Hebrew tongue, the Syrian tongue, etc:

Ezr_4:7 And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.

Rev_9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (referring to the OT (Hebrew) and NT (Greek) texts on Satan, the destroyer)

Notice the word "interpreted" connected with "tongue" and "writing".

The gift of "tongues" was given at Pentecost because there were devout Jews from every nation present in Jerusalem for the feasts (with differing languages present at Pentecost) and they all needed to understand what was going on in their own mother languages and it even lists them. They all understood the works of God.

The bible says the gift of tongues is for those who believe, and not for any specific group...
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16

To forbid tongues to any group of believers is simply not scriptural.

 

[rockytopva]

The bible says the gift of tongues is for those who believe, and not for any specific group...
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16

To forbid tongues to any group of believers is simply not scriptural.

The signs you see in most churches are Exit signs!