Baptized in the Spirit and speaking in tongues?

brinny

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Right. But what is his PURPOSE? Is it to draw people to Christ or to draw people away from Him?

If signs and wonders cause people to turn to Christ, wouldn't Satan be shooting himself in the foot by doing something that is doing harm to his kingdom of darkness?
But what is his PURPOSE?
Satan's purpose is to DECEIVE anyone, and as many as he can, by any means necessary.

Including even appearing as an "angel of light" and doing "signs and wonders".
 
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I'm referring to that sentence especially where you said that those who do not have gifts is because of their lack of faith.

Where is that written in God's Word?
Well, James says that "You have not because you ask not". Luke 11:9 says, "Ask and you will receive." So, putting legs to your faith is asking for a spiritual gift and then saying, "Lord I receive that gift". Luke did not say, "Ask and you will receive if it be God's will." Paul was quite clear that it is God's will that we pursue love and desire the greater gifts. The greater gifts are those that are most suited to your particular calling and ministry in Christ. So, you will determine which spiritual gifts are going to be the most useful to you and you will pray and seek God for them. If you didn't believe a particular gift was going to be useful to you, you wouldn't seek God for it.

This is why people don't go for tongues, because they don't see any use in it for them. That's no problem. But as for me, God has shown me that my prayers are more important to Him than anything else and He is using me that way, so tongues is a very important gift for me, so I use it all the time to express intercessory burdens that I have that I don't know how to pray in English for.
 
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Satan's purpose is to DECEIVE anyone, and as many as he can, by any means necessary.

Including even appearing as an "angel of light" and doing "signs and wonders".
So, why do you think he wants to deceive people?
 
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brinny

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Well, James says that "You have not because you ask not". Luke 11:9 says, "Ask and you will receive." So, putting legs to your faith is asking for a spiritual gift and then saying, "Lord I receive that gift". Luke did not say, "Ask and you will receive if it be God's will." Paul was quite clear that it is God's will that we pursue love and desire the greater gifts. The greater gifts are those that are most suited to your particular calling and ministry in Christ. So, you will determine which spiritual gifts are going to be the most useful to you and you will pray and seek God for them. If you didn't believe a particular gift was going to be useful to you, you wouldn't seek God for it.

This is why people don't go for tongues, because they don't see any use in it for them. That's no problem. But as for me, God has shown me that my prayers are more important to Him than anything else and He is using me that way, so tongues is a very important gift for me, so I use it all the time to express intercessory burdens that I have that I don't know how to pray in English for.
Luke did not say, "Ask and you will receive if it be God's will."
God's will is all that matters.

Not "our" will.

Willful-ness is warned against and is akin to rebellion and witchcraft:

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." ~I Sam 15:23

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." ~James 4:3
 
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Oscar, you sound like a nice guy. I want to say that there is major disagreement here and I and others will oppose that error.
That does not diminish you as a person,but rather attempts to get the ship back on course.I will attempt to address the root problem when I get on my laptop later on.
Funny Face.jpg


Yep! I look like a nice guy don't I?
 
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brinny

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So, why do you think he wants to deceive people?

He's the deceiver himself, the father of lies.

He's the living God's adversary.

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" ~I Pet 5:8

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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God's will is all that matters.

Not "our" will.

Willful-ness is warned against and is akin to rebellion and witchcraft:

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." ~I Sam 15:23

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." ~James 4:3
Ah! But then that brings up another issue that will probably make the OP think we have hijacked his thread! But it shows that these threads take on a life of their own and that is what makes them fun and interesting (for me, anyhow).

For a truly converted Christian, God's will becomes our will. If our will is not totally dedicated to God's will, then we are not genuinely converted to Christ, because true conversion means a total transformation of the heart, spirit and will of a person so that when we exercise our will, it conforms to God's will for us. If there is a conflict between our self-will and God's will, it may show that we have just got religion and still need to go all the way and be genuinely converted to Christ.

You may say, "That's very strict!" Yes it is. That is why the gate is narrow, and few there be that find it.

So, we are either converted to Christian or not, therefore we are living God's will or we are still living in our self-will. There's no half way in this.

The Scripture says that those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God (Romans 8:14). This means that we are led continuously, and not led one minute and not the next. Being led by the Spirit is a lifestyle for the genuinely converted Christ. We are either led by the Spirit every moment, minute, hour of each day, or we are not. It may seem that we make our own plans and choices, but our steps are guided by the Lord, mostly when we are not aware of it. If we are not led by the Spirit, we are not children of God.

Therefore being led by the Spirit is automatic and natural for a child of God who is genuinely converted to Christ.
 
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brinny

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Ah! But then that brings up another issue that will probably make the OP think we have hijacked his thread! But it shows that these threads take on a life of their own and that is what makes them fun and interesting (for me, anyhow).

For a truly converted Christ, God's will becomes our will. If our will is not totally dedicated to God's will, then we are not genuinely converted to Christ, because true conversion means a total transformation of the heart, spirit and will of a person so that when we exercise our will, it conforms to God's will for us. If there is a conflict between our self-will and God's will, it may show that we have just got religion and still need to go all the way and be genuinely converted to Christ.

You may say, "That's very strict!" Yes it is. That is why the gate is narrow, and few there be that find it.

So, we are either converted to Christian or not, therefore we are living God's will or we are still living in our self-will. There's no half way in this.

The Scripture says that those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God (Romans 8:14). This means that we are led continuously, and not led one minute and not the next. Being led by the Spirit is a lifestyle for the genuinely converted Christ. We are either led by the Spirit every moment, minute, hour of each day, or we are not. It may seem that we make our own plans and choices, but our steps are guided by the Lord, mostly when we are not aware of it. If we are not led by the Spirit, we are not children of God.

Therefore being led by the Spirit is automatic and natural for a child of God who is genuinely converted to Christ.
truly converted Christ

Truly "Converted" CHRIST?

See post #244

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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Truly "Converted" CHRIST?

See post #244

Praying.

Let it rain.
A typo!!!!! I corrected it right away when I proof read it, but I wasn't in time. I meant Converted Christian.
 
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God's will is all that matters.

Not "our" will.

Willful-ness is warned against and is akin to rebellion and witchcraft:

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." ~I Sam 15:23

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." ~James 4:3
So, as you said, willfulness is akin to rebellion and witchcraft. So, a willful person cannot be a true convert to Christ, and will slide down into hell along with all the others who are dead in their sins.

So, in response to your second quote: If I want to encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ and see that using the gift of prophecy to give them "love letters" from God, am I asking amiss for that gift just to consume it on my lusts?
 
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brinny

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So, as you said, willfulness is akin to rebellion and witchcraft. So, a willful person cannot be a true convert to Christ, and will slide down into hell along with all the others who are dead in their sins.

So, in response to your second quote: If I want to encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ and see that using the gift of prophecy to give them "love letters" from God, am I asking amiss for that gift just to consume it on my lusts?

As i stated earlier, the only "will" that matters is GOD'S will.

Not "our" will.

Willfulness is, as was stated, akin to rebelliousness and stubbornness and witchcraft.

It is written.

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." ~I Sam 15:23

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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As i stated earlier, the only "will" that matters is GOD'S will.

Not "our" will.

Willfulness is, as was stated, akin to rebelliousness and stubbornness and witchcraft.

It is written.

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." ~I Sam 15:23

Praying.

Let it rain.
But I keep saying, and you may not be hearing me, that for a genuinely converted Christian, God's will is his will and his will is God's will. If that is not the case, then the person IS NOT CONVERTED!!!!!
 
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brinny

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But I keep saying, and you may not be hearing me, that for a genuinely converted Christian, God's will is his will and his will is God's will. If that is not the case, then the person IS NOT CONVERTED!!!!!

See post #231.

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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brinny

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I can't see what you said in post #231 that relates to what I just said

You posted this in post #230 in the beginning of your post:
are you saying that every gift of God has to be the sovereign work of God?

Re: that post, my response was, and is, that it's about God's will and His sovereignty, and not "ours".

EVERY gift from God MUST be the sovereign will and work of God.

Any "gift" that is not from God is from the antithesis to anything of the living God, and who/what might that be?

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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Re; that post, my response was, and is, that it's about God's will and His sovereignty, and not "ours".

Any "gift" that is not from God is from the antithesis to anything of the living God, and who/what might that be?

Praying.

Let it rain.
Okay. If, being converted, our will becomes God's will, then anything we desire from God will be according to His will for us, because if it were not His will, we would not desire it.

Therefore, if the Holy Spirit (who is God) has inspired Paul to list the supernatural gifts of the Spirit as God's will for the Church, then to desire them is God's will for us. If it was according to our unsanctified will, we wouldn't be desiring them at all.

A self-willed person calling him or herself a Christian is not a true convert but a hypocrite.

You see, there is false teaching in many churches that folk can be "carnal Christians" with one foot in Christ and another in the world, and still be truly converted believers. As a result of this false teaching (which is a deception of the devil) can cause false manifestations of the spiritual gifts. This is why there are so many in the churches who have been seriously hurt by the misuse of prophecy, words of knowledge and discernment of spirits by unconverted religious hypocrites who think they can have their sins and Jesus too.

Jesus has come to save us from our sins, and not in them.

So, only a genuinely converted Christian can manifest the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in a way that comforts, encourages, builds up, and draws them deeper into Christ.

So in this I will agree with you, that Satan can falsify what should be good spiritual gifts, through religious hypocrites in order to spiritually abuse and hurt good godly people and lead them astray from a solid foundation in Christ.

For example, a religious hypocrite might hear a bit of gossip (true or untrue) that an elder is having an affair with the church secretary, so he "gets" a word of knowledge and blurts it out in front of the whole church. As a result, the elder loses his position in the church and his marriage, and the church secretary is fired from her job. This is a blatant misuse of the word of knowledge and causes the church to be split down the middle. And if the accusation was false, then innocent people have been hurt through a lying spirit speaking through the person with the "word of knowledge". This is an extreme example, but you'd be surprised at how often that happens in churches around the country.

But we cannot say that every Pentecostal or Charismatic who manifests the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are doing them falsely. It is all to do with the heart of the person. There are religious hypocrites, gossiping, lying, being judgmental, divisive and controlling in every church of every denomination.

If a a godly person gets a word of knowledge about an elder having an affair, he won't go blurting out out in front of the church. He will pray and ask God for a word of wisdom to know how to approach this so that the elder, his marriage, and the church won't be "nuked". So God may give him a word that God wants the elder to seek for greater faithfulness to his family. Then the Holy Spirit has a chance to being conviction to the elder, if the word of knowledge is true, and that elder will then respond by confessing his sin and getting right without harm being done to the church. If the word was not true, then there is no harm done because no accusation has been made, only an encouragement for the elder to assure his faithfulness to his family, whatever that will mean to him.

While whole churches have been destroyed by false prophecies given by religious hypocrites, and other churches have been strengthened by prophecies given by godly, loving believers, it is not the ministry of prophecy that is at the centre, but the issue is in the heart of the person giving the prophecy.

What this says to me is, "Am I truly converted to Christ? How do I know? And if I'm not sure, how can I find out? And what must I do to confirm that I am truly converted?"

So the important thing is not to point the finger at others and say, "You are doing false signs and wonders", but to look within our own hearts and to ask, "Is my profession of Christianity genuine?"
 
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brinny

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Okay. If, being converted, our will becomes God's will, then anything we desire from God will be according to His will for us, because if it were not His will, we would not desire it.

Therefore, if the Holy Spirit (who is God) has inspired Paul to list the supernatural gifts of the Spirit as God's will for the Church, then to desire them is God's will for us. If it was according to our unsanctified will, we wouldn't be desiring them at all.

A self-willed person calling him or herself a Christian is not a true convert but a hypocrite.

You see, there is false teaching in many churches that folk can be "carnal Christians" with one foot in Christ and another in the world, and still be truly converted believers. As a result of this false teaching (which is a deception of the devil) can cause false manifestations of the spiritual gifts. This is why there are so many in the churches who have been seriously hurt by the misuse of prophecy, words of knowledge and discernment of spirits by unconverted religious hypocrites who think they can have their sins and Jesus too.

Jesus has come to save us from our sins, and not in them.

So, only a genuinely converted Christian can manifest the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in a way that comforts, encourages, builds up, and draws them deeper into Christ.

So in this I will agree with you, that Satan can falsify what should be good spiritual gifts, through religious hypocrites in order to spiritually abuse and hurt good godly people and lead them astray from a solid foundation in Christ.

For example, a religious hypocrite might hear a bit of gossip (true or untrue) that an elder is having an affair with the church secretary, so he "gets" a word of knowledge and blurts it out in front of the whole church. As a result, the elder loses his position in the church and his marriage, and the church secretary is fired from her job. This is a blatant misuse of the word of knowledge and causes the church to be split down the middle. And if the accusation was false, then innocent people have been hurt through a lying spirit speaking through the person with the "word of knowledge". This is an extreme example, but you'd be surprised at how often that happens in churches around the country.

But we cannot say that every Pentecostal or Charismatic who manifests the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are doing them falsely. It is all to do with the heart of the person. There are religious hypocrites, gossiping, lying, being judgmental, divisive and controlling in every church of every denomination.

If a a godly person gets a word of knowledge about an elder having an affair, he won't go blurting out out in front of the church. He will pray and ask God for a word of wisdom to know how to approach this so that the elder, his marriage, and the church won't be "nuked". So God may give him a word that God wants the elder to seek for greater faithfulness to his family. Then the Holy Spirit has a chance to being conviction to the elder, if the word of knowledge is true, and that elder will then respond by confessing his sin and getting right without harm being done to the church. If the word was not true, then there is no harm done because no accusation has been made, only an encouragement for the elder to assure his faithfulness to his family, whatever that will mean to him.

While whole churches have been destroyed by false prophecies given by religious hypocrites, and other churches have been strengthened by prophecies given by godly, loving believers, it is not the ministry of prophecy that is at the centre, but the issue is in the heart of the person giving the prophecy.

What this says to me is, "Am I truly converted to Christ? How do I know? And if I'm not sure, how can I find out? And what must I do to confirm that I am truly converted?"

So the important thing is not to point the finger at others and say, "You are doing false signs and wonders", but to look within our own hearts and to ask, "Is my profession of Christianity genuine?"

Read Post #255 again. I edited it to include your comment:
are you saying that every gift of God has to be the sovereign work of God?

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." ~I Sam 15:23

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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yaacotd

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I have heard people say that if you dont speak in tongues then you're not baptized in this spirit. Is this true or false? Is it biblical or not biblical? Thank you.
I would have to say to you
beware of them first who are baptized in the spirit
and lie to you in your own tongue.

As for the other
that is up to the Spirit as it gives utterance.
 
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Oscarr,

[You may be basing your views about tongues on what you have heard when people have spoken it. ]
I base what I believe on scripture.

[Your reaction is exactly what Paul said your reaction would be if people spoke publicly in tongues without interpretation. ]
People spoke in real languages in Pauls day.

[He said that the one who spoke in tongues in front of others, in terms of understandability and edification, he would be speaking into the air.]

Paul gave rules for using this sign gift at that time.
[And if what you have heard sounds like vain repetition, if the person is saying just "ra ba sha mala rab sha mala" then I believe you. ]

That is all that anyone is doing today as there is no such "gift" in operation now.


[ but you cannot make any judgment about the tongues spoken privately where God is the only listener, because you have never heard those tongues. Therefore they are out of range of your experience.]
I can based on scripture
[You cannot say for sure that when a person prays in private and uses tongues in his prayer, that he is mistaken or that his tongues are false, because you are not a fly on the wall to hear it and make a judgment about it. ]


Do not have to be there to know it is false.


[I think the reason why you are maintaining that all modern tongues are false is what you were taught.]

Everything is to based on scripture, not subjective feelings and imaginations.

[ And, if you have just heard a couple of people speaking in tongues in front of others, or watched a couple of Youtube videos, then you are basing your assertion on a very limited foundation, where, people are speaking tongues in a way that Paul taught not to.]

I have seen it many times in person as well as all the false teachers on youtube
 
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