Oscar, you sound like a nice guy. I want to say that there is major disagreement here and I and others will oppose that error.
Okay!
Oh? So what is your definition of faith? Is it sitting around like a wooden Indian waiting for God to do something, or is it getting off your acre and doing what God tells you to do in Scripture?
You may be basing your views about tongues on what you have heard when people have spoken it. Your reaction is exactly what Paul said your reaction would be if people spoke publicly in tongues without interpretation. He said that the one who spoke in tongues in front of others, in terms of understandability and edification, he would be speaking into the air.
What I meant was that the person just sat like a wooden Indian waiting for God to perform some involuntary thing through him or her. But an involuntary action has no moral value to God at all, because we don't have a choice about it.
(I couldn't help saying that!)
What I meant was that the person just sat like a wooden Indian waiting for God to perform some involuntary thing through him or her. But an involuntary action has no moral value to God at all, because we don't have a choice about it.
It's like breaking wind in an elevator full of people when you couldn't help it. No one would blame you if that was the case. But if you chose to do it, then that is another matter!
Faith is like sitting at the breakfast table with your muesli, corn flakes, toast and coffee in front of you, and you believe that breakfast will give you energy for your day, so you choose to eat it.
But some people treat receiving the gifts as the person sitting at the breakfast table waiting for mummy to come, pick up the spoon and feed them the breakfast when she chooses to feed them. If mummy doesn't come, then they will go away without having the breakfast.
If you believe that you have the gift of prophecy, then it won't be evident in you until you decide to prophesy. If the gift of healing, nothing will happen until you decide to lay hands on a sick person. (of course, it is the Holy Spirit who does the actual healing, but your obedience and faith puts God in a position where He can).
If I have a friend who needs to hear the Gospel, and I get an opportunity to tell him about Jesus, and I just sit like a wooden Indian and not say anything, then it is my unbelief that stops me from sharing the Gospel with him, because although I believed in my head that he needed to hear the Gospel, I didn't put my mouth into gear to actually tell him.
Spoken like a Presbyterian Calvinist!
Spoken like a Presbyterian Calvinist!
Putting tongues aside (because we have been going over this same ground year after year!), are you saying that every gift of God has to be the sovereign work of God?
So the Scripture, "By grace are you saved, through faith, it is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God", means that if it is gift, salvation came come only through a sovereign work of God?
It is interesting that the 19th Century New England Presbyterian Church believed that, and so they didn't evangelise very much. Finney went against them by telling folks that they had to make a choice and then God would do the work in them.
But a person who may be under conviction of sin (which I believe is a sovereign work of God by the way), if he sits like a wooden Indian and does nothing, is he not still unsaved and will slide down into hell when he dies?
How come Paul says, along with pursuing love, that the Corinthians (and my implication, us), desire the greater gifts? If receiving gifts were just the sovereign work of God, then is not Paul mistaken when he shows that we can choose to desire one gift over another?
Can I ask you another question. I don't know if you have children or not. But if you do, and you discovered that the child had terminal cancer, and that was breaking your heart, wouldn't you be consumed with love for that child and pray, weep, travail before God that He would come and heal her? But wait! That wouldn't do any good, because healing is a gift and it is the sovereign work of God and there is no point in praying and asking God to do it. Wouldn't something like that cause a conflict within you between pleading for the healing, and not pleading for it because you know that God won't answer your prayer because He chooses according to His sovereign will whether He wants to heal her or not.
And if you took her to the elders of the church, as instructed by James so they can lay hands on her and pray the prayer of faith, that may not work, because James is wrong about having the elders do that, because healing is a gift and it is solely according to God's sovereign will and the laying on of hands will be a pointless act.
(In actual fact, that's what most Christians believe even if they lay hands on the sick. They do it because the Scripture tells them to do it, but in their hearts they don't believe God will heal the person anyway and are surprised and amazed if and when He does!)
If it isn't, who/what is it from then?
At first I had difficulty going back to post #208 because I waited for God, in His sovereign will, to move the mouse for me.
At first I had difficulty going back to post #208 because I waited for God, in His sovereign will, to move the mouse for me.
Then I realised I had to do something!
James says that if a person says they have faith, then they have to demonstrate it by actions that show they have faith. James goes on to say that faith without works is dead. He is not talking about salvation by works here, so let's not get confused by that as some do.
No. James' principle is that if I have faith in the power of prayer, and never pray, then my faith in that is dead because I don't follow my faith with action. If I say that I have faith in the pastor of my church and I never go and hear his preaching, or go to him for advice when I need it, it could be said that my faith in him is dead because I don't do anything that shows that I have real faith in him.
A person who says that they are a man or woman of faith and power, but never shows it in his or her life - isn't that person a hypocrite, appearing to be someone they are not?
If I believe in divine healing (which I do), and I don't offer it to anyone with a medical condition who comes across my path, do I really believe in it, or am I just a mouth?
If you see a person being all saintly and religious at church, and you work at your job alongside him and see that he is irreligious, immoral and a bully at work, would you say that his faith in Christ is alive or dead?
As you can see, I like answering questions with questions.
I was demonstrating the need for action to back up my faith in that I could go back to post #108 by using my computer mouse.
Oh. I misread your post. I'm an old guy who needs reading glasses. But the last paragraph says the same thing about having to put legs to your faith. If you say you have faith and don't put legs to it, then it is not faith but unbelief, because your mouth says you believe it, but your actions say you don't. (When I say "your", I am not point the finger at you, but I am talking about people in general),
i agree.
Right. But what is his PURPOSE? Is it to draw people to Christ or to draw people away from Him?
