Baptist views on feminism

[Ringo84]

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you're missing the point of my post - you're the one who has a problem with the submitting part because you're focusing on that word alone making it seem like it's a bad thing, it isn't

again - if husbands love their wives like Christ loved the church, it's a non-issue

Regardless of whether it's a "negative" or a "positive" for women to submit, I fail to see why it is that women are the ones who are asked to submit so disproportionately.
Ringo

 

[edie19]

who says it's disproportionate? You or God?? If we accept that Scripture is God's true and infallible word, then I would have to say not God.

And hey, Scripture doesn't tell me that I need to love my husband as Christ loves the church. Is that any less (or more) disproportionate?

 

[Ringo84]

who says it's disproportionate? You or God?? If we accept that Scripture is God's true and infallible word, then I would have to say not God.

I do, as the verse supposedly asks women to submit to men, but it doesn't ask for the same level of submission from men. That's disproportionate.

And hey, Scripture doesn't tell me that I need to love my husband as Christ loves the church. Is that any less (or more) disproportionate?

Loving someone to that degree takes a certain amount of sacrifice. But it isn't the same amount of sacrifice as asking someone to submit.
Ringo

 

[edie19]

I do, as the verse supposedly asks women to submit to men, but it doesn't ask for the same level of submission from men. That's disproportionate.



Loving someone to that degree takes a certain amount of sacrifice. But it isn't the same amount of sacrifice as asking someone to submit.
Ringo

you're right - I'm only asked to submit, Christ, who lived a perfect life in obedience to God the Father, was asked to sacrifice His life for us sinners who comprise the church - and my husband is commanded to love me like that - it isn't remotely the same, I get off easy

we can't apply our standards of "fairness" to God - who has a perfect plan, a perfect will and who knows what's best for us far beyond what we'll ever see or comprehend

 

[Ringo84]

you're right - I'm only asked to submit, Christ, who lived a perfect life in obedience to God the Father, was asked to sacrifice His life for us sinners who comprise the church - and my husband is commanded to love me like that - it isn't remotely the same, I get off easy

Jesus' sacrifice to us is not the same as the sacrifice between a husband and a wife.

we can't apply our standards of "fairness" to God - who has a perfect plan, a perfect will and who knows what's best for us far beyond what we'll ever see or comprehend

That seems like a cop-out to me: "let's simply not question why women are disproportionately asked to submit, as God's ways are not ours". While it's true that God's ways aren't our ways, that doesn't mean that the subject isn't open to honest discussion, contemplation and debate.
Ringo

 

[PrettyLittlePrincess]

If we're honest, we all know submission has a bad connotation which is my only complaint that it's used only in respect to the woman when it appears the man's role has an element of submission in it as well. I don't say this just because I don't like the word submission or the act of submitting myselff but because loving someone like Christ loves the church is an unimaginably selfless goal to strive for. If the word "submission" goes beyond superficial obedience and involves putting one's own will aside for the good of another (your family as a whole), it sounds like what God asks the man to do is very similar. And the model of Christ and the Church is just that- a model, an analogy. Ringo's right that it's not the same.


I don't think anyone in this thread would condone mistreatment, but obviously the roles in marriage have been misused in some cases, by both men and women, as they've mistreated their spouses. I'm sure there are a lot of people in the world who imagine an abused submissive woman in particular. I wonder if problems like that--both the image and the abuse itself--come from the over-emphasis of submission. Just from my (limited) observations it seems like the men who mistreat women get so hung up on expecting submission from their wives that they forget their own responsibility. It does get a lot of attention when it comes to discussion about marriage. I'm sure it goes both ways, but the submission seems to get the heavier hand. I know it's from the Bible, but sometimes I wonder if the same roles could be taught/described without that word and whether that would make any difference. Either way, wouldn't it come down to trying to improve yourself in God before asking something your spouse(or anyone else and within a certain a reason)?

I don't know if that paragraph even made any sense, I've had a long day lol. But they're just my thoughts for what they're worth.

 

[edie19]

I think you're pretty much on point PLP

 

[Ringo84]

If we're honest, we all know submission has a bad connotation which is my only complaint that it's used only in respect to the woman when it appears the man's role has an element of submission in it as well. I don't say this just because I don't like the word submission or the act of submitting myselff but because loving someone like Christ loves the church is an unimaginably selfless goal to strive for. If the word "submission" goes beyond superficial obedience and involves putting one's own will aside for the good of another (your family as hole), it sounds like what God asks the man to do is very similar.

(Emphasis mine)

Exactly. Which is why I have always said that submission in marriage is a two-way street. A husband and a wife submit to one another when they love each other enough to sacrifice everything for their spouse.

This brings me back to my original question: if it's true that both the husband and the wife have a part in submitting to one another, why is it that the woman seems to be disproportionately called to submit in the verse?
Ringo

 

[PrettyLittlePrincess]

Exactly. Which is why I have always said that submission in marriage is a two-way street. A husband and a wife submit to one another when they love each other enough to sacrifice everything for their spouse.

This brings me back to my original question: if it's true that both the husband and the wife have a part in submitting to one another, why is it that the woman seems to be disproportionately called to submit in the verse?
Ringo

I heard someone say once that God must've known men would need their egos stroked to understand. lol, jk

But, seriously, it is a good question but a tough one. Maybe there is/was a difference in how men women process those instructions, but I don't really think so. It's a question worth answering.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Ok so here's my question....what does any of this have to do with the OP????
This is not a discussion on feminism is it?
Equal submission as a point of contention biblically is NOT feminism.

cya.

 

[Ringo84]

Equal submission as a point of contention biblically is NOT feminism.

cya.

According to whom?
Ringo

 

[dies-l]

Ok so here's my question....what does any of this have to do with the OP????
This is not a discussion on feminism is it?
Equal submission as a point of contention biblically is NOT feminism.

cya.

Actually, I am surprised at how well this discussion has stayed on point. Gender roles in the Christian home and in the Church are incredibly relevent to a discussion of Baptist views on (traditional or "first wave") feminism.

 

[DeaconDean]

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." -Eph. 5:18-19 (KJV)

I'm gonna repeat something I posted in another area:

I was reading a book tonight, and the author, made two statements that say a lot:

Recognize that the devil has been using controversy as a device down through church history to prevent believers from having access to the most powerful truths of God...The more controversies you find around a truth of God, the more powerful that truth must be.

-Joseph Prince, Destined to Reign, Controversies Surronding the Gospel of Christ, p.22

Now look at the controversy being stired over these verses.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Ringo84]

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." -Eph. 5:18-19 (KJV)

Yes, because it makes perfect sense to ask women to submit to men but not ask for the same level of submission from men.

I was reading a book tonight, and the author, made two statements that say a lot:

Recognize that the devil has been using controversy as a device down through church history to prevent believers from having access to the most powerful truths of God...The more controversies you find around a truth of God, the more powerful that truth must be.
​

-Joseph Prince, Destined to Reign, Controversies Surronding the Gospel of Christ, p.22
​

Now look at the controversy being stired over these verses.

God Bless

Till all are one.

IN OTHER WORDS: Don't think! Just accept what you've been told.
Ringo

 

[DeaconDean]

Yes, because it makes perfect sense to ask women to submit to men but not ask for the same level of submission from men.



IN OTHER WORDS: Don't think! Just accept what you've been told.
Ringo

I have deliberately avoided you in this thread, but since you choose to make this personal, so will I.

Young man, those are not my words, those are the words of God as Paul being led by the Holy Spirit wrote.

If you have a problem with them, take it to God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Ringo84]

Hey young man, those are not my words, those are the words of God as Paul being led by the Holy Spirit wrote.

If you have a problem with them, take it to God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this is supposedly a commandment from God, why is the commandment devoid of logic and reason?
Ringo

 

[DeaconDean]

Let me repeat:

...those are not my words, those are the words of God as Paul being led by the Holy Spirit wrote.

If you have a problem with them, take it to God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Ringo84]

That doesn't answer my question. Why is this so-called commandment from God seemingly completely devoid of logic?
Ringo

 

[DeaconDean]

That doesn't answer my question. Why is this so-called commandment from God seemingly completely devoid of logic?
Ringo

Why does everything have to be logical for you?

It is not enough that the Word of God tells you to do this, there has to be some hidden logic for this.

The Bible, rather scripture says that:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" -2 Tim. 3:16 (KJV)

I don't have to know the "logic" behind God's decision to tell Paul to write this. It is enough for me to know that He did.

That is God's word, that is what it says. And you are resisting God's word. Paul also says:

"For who hath resisted his will?" -Rom. 9:19 (KJV)

You may not like it, I may not like it, the next poster may not like it, but that is what God's word says!

So I'll repeat this because it needs to be said again:

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." -Eph. 5:18-19 (KJV)

I'm gonna repeat something I posted in another area:

I was reading a book tonight, and the author, made two statements that say a lot:

Recognize that the devil has been using controversy as a device down through church history to prevent believers from having access to the most powerful truths of God...The more controversies you find around a truth of God, the more powerful that truth must be.

-Joseph Prince, Destined to Reign, Controversies Surronding the Gospel of Christ, p.22

Now look at the controversy being stired over these verses.

Moderism/Liberism is one of the principle problems with what is wrong with the church today.

God's word is authortative, Jesus took it that way when He rebuked the Devil. Yet today, God's word is not authortative anymore.

There is the fruits of Modernism and Liberalism folks.

I tell you what Ringo my friend, since I am so wrong standing on God's word, I'll bow out of this thread.

Sorry to have interjected God's word, the scriptures, into this discussion.

One other thing before I take my leave, in order to avoid any more controversy between us, I am adding another name to my ignore list.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Ringo84]

Why does everything have to be logical for you?

It is not enough that the Word of God tells you to do this, there has to be some hidden logic for this.

The Bible, rather scripture says that:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" -2 Tim. 3:16 (KJV)

I don't have to know the "logic" behind God's decision to tell Paul to write this. It is enough for me to know that He did.

That is God's word, that is what it says. And you are resisting God's word. Paul also says:

"For who hath resisted his will?" -Rom. 9:19 (KJV)

You may not like it, I may not like it, the next poster may not like it, but that is what God's word says!

So I'll repeat this because it needs to be said again:

If a rule is unequal and illogical, why follow it?

God is a logical being, so it follows that His commandments should be logical. Assuming that's true, why is this commandment so illogical?
Ringo