Baptist Pastor - Voddie Baucham on "Sabbath commandment before Sina"

eleos1954

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The phrase Son of man is actually ben Adam in Hebrew. This can be seen in passages that are quoted in the N/T which reveal to us how they are rendered into Greek. A good example is Psalm 8:4, which contains ben Adam, and is quoted in Hebrews 2:6.

But aside from this, and what I said previously, I do understand that from the context alone the passage you quoted and posted from Mark in my first response appears to be speaking of the creation either way. However, more importantly, think about the impact of what I previously said when it comes to other critical teachings. For example, if the statement can be understood to mean Adam instead of man or mankind it still doesn't really change the meaning of the statement, but what would it then say about the Shabbat being passed down to all mankind in light of other teachings and principles in the N/T?

For a couple of quick examples, if by one man, (Adam), sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, (for that all have sinned, (Romans 5:12)), then would not the same be true of the Shabbat? Moreover if Levi paid tithes to Melki-Tzedek through Abraham, even though Levi was merely in the loins of Abraham when this occurred, (Hebrews 7:9-10), then what of the Shabbat which was made for Adam? Was it not therefore made for all mankind according to this type of argument and thinking directly from the scripture? Were we not all in the loins of Adam when the Shabbat was made for him in the beginning?

It is not that there is much difference in meaning whether it is Adam, or man, or mankind, but it is that this is a doubling down with a more solid evidence that what you said in the first post is true.
Regarding Hebrews 2:6 ..... my lexicon shows the greek as being anthrópos (mankind)

Strong's Greek: 444. ἄνθρωπος (anthrópos) -- a man, human, mankind

and Psalms 8:4 in Hebrew being enosh (mankind)

Strong's Hebrew: 582. אֱנוֹשׁ (enosh) -- man, mankind

and then followed by and Adam as being (son of man) son of mankind.

Adam was the first human (son of God) and also the first son (of mankind) the beginning of the human race.

as far as capitalization goes those types of grammatical "rules" were not in place back then.

For a couple of quick examples, if by one man, (Adam), sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, (for that all have sinned, (Romans 5:12)), then would not the same be true of the Shabbat? Moreover if Levi paid tithes to Melki-Tzedek through Abraham, even though Levi was merely in the loins of Abraham when this occurred, (Hebrews 7:9-10), then what of the Shabbat which was made for Adam? Was it not therefore made for all mankind according to this type of argument and thinking directly from the scripture? Were we not all in the loins of Adam when the Shabbat was made for him in the beginning?

This is a good point .... yes Shabbat (the 7th) was created for all of mankind ... and started with Adam.
 
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BobRyan

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I encourage you to read the link I provided you with some time ago. I will repeat it if you want.
Feel free to summarize the points in your link that you find to be the most compelling.
 
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sparow

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I don't see God commanding anyone to keep the Sabbath in Gen 2:1-3
Some people need to be told every little thing; they think God gave us an awesome brain so we could wear a hat on it. There may not be a command contained in Gen 2:2-3, but the subject of latter commands is established; the Lord Sanctified the SEVENTH DAY.
 
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sparow

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What he does not do is claim that since the Baptist Confession of Faith affirms the TEN - which includes the Sabbath -- that this makes the Sabbath valid for today. This is not a "proof by tradition" argument he is making.

I think you missed something. I was very impressed, initially, then I heard him call Sunday both the first day and the seventh day, heard him say that the church keeps the first day as the Sabbath because Christ rose on the first day. How Sad it is, that the apologetics that followed apologizes for not keeping the commandments of God and for man changing the commandment. I can accept he was sincere, but he exceeded Pastoral licence.
 
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BobRyan

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no command there in Gen, bud....
God says it is there in Ex 20:11 -
Gen 2:1-3 says the Sabbath was "made a holy day" right there and Ex 20:11 makes the same point in legal code for the Sabbath

Pretty hard to ignore those Bible details.
 
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BobRyan

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You can keep the Sabbath if you want, but it's not a commandment by Jesus or anywhere else in the NT.
Neither is "do not take God's name in vain" found in all of the NT - but that does not "delete it" and every Christian knows this.

Using ad hoc rules as if that suffices for a basis for doctrine does not work.

"there REMAIN therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
where "'Honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that still-valid unit of TEN
And of course all mankind to keep Sabbath for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - Is 66:23

No wonder that Paul is preaching the gospel to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 - in the New Testament.
 
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BobRyan

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I think you missed something. I was very impressed, initially, then I heard him call Sunday both the first day and the seventh day, heard him say that the church keeps the first day as the Sabbath because Christ rose on the first day
He is a Southern Baptist minister so we would expect him to do both of those things.

My point in bringing him up is that on many of these threads people attack the idea that all Ten of the Ten commandments apply to all mankind still to this very day. Baucham agrees on that point and that is also reflected in his affirmation of the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19.

So then "one" of the many sticking points in this area of the board is addressed by his statements.
 
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Canuckster

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Some people need to be told every little thing; they think God gave us an awesome brain so we could wear a hat on it. There may not be a command contained in Gen 2:2-3, but the subject of latter commands is established; the Lord Sanctified the SEVENTH DAY.
And some people don't know the difference between a sanctification and a commandment and merge the two to suit their purpose.
 
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BobRyan

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And some people don't know the difference between a sanctification and a commandment and merge the two to suit their purpose.
Out of curiosity did you read the OP and answer the question there that is put for you to consider?
 
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BobRyan

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yes i did
what was your answer to this question?


1. He shows the Sabbath commandment prior to Exodus 20 - giving of the Law -- in Ex 16 and Gen 2:1-3
2. He points out that there is no good way to "delete just one" of the TEN
3. He addresses the fallacy in the argument that says -- nations should not be judged by the TEN Commandments unless they voluntarily choose to obey/accept the TEN.
4. At 17:00 he points out that because it is included in the creation order in Gen 2:1-3 -- it is not limited to "Just the Jews". (We could point out the same in Is 66:23 where it is "for all mankind" in the New Heaven and New Earth)

QUESTION: What do you think of his affirming statements about God's Sabbath prior to Sinai -- for all mankind?
 
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sparow

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God says it is there in Ex 20:11 -
Gen 2:1-3 says the Sabbath was "made a holy day" right there and Ex 20:11 makes the same point in legal code for the Sabbath

Pretty hard to ignore those Bible details.
Holy is an old English word that means whole or complete, the Church has inserted a religiosity into the word; in the Hebrew I believe what is meant is, set apart, special, elevated in importance.
 
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sparow

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He is a Southern Baptist minister so we would expect him to so both of those things.

My point in bringing him up is that on many of these threads people attack the idea that all Ten of the Ten commandments apply to all mankind still to this very day. Baucham agrees on that point and that is also reflected in his affirmation of the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19.

So then "one" of the many sticking points in this area of the board is addressed by his statements.
I felt that false doctrine was being appeased.
 
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sparow

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And some people don't know the difference between a sanctification and a commandment and merge the two to suit their purpose.
I do not know what you are talking about but the two concepts are combined in the fourth commandment.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Neither is "do not take God's name in vain" found in all of the NT - but that does not "delete it" and every Christian knows this.

Using ad hoc rules as if that suffices for a basis for doctrine does not work.

"there REMAIN therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
where "'Honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that still-valid unit of TEN
And of course all mankind to keep Sabbath for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - Is 66:23

No wonder that Paul is preaching the gospel to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 - in the New Testament.

Sabbath does not need to be on the last day of the week though. There is evidence of this in the Bible where they "broke bread" on Sunday.
 
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BobRyan

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Sabbath does not need to be on the last day of the week though.
Let's ask the Word of God - what day of the week is Sabbath

Ex 20:10 "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Lev 23:3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) in all your dwellings.
There is evidence of this in the Bible where they "broke bread" on Sunday.
IN Acts 2 they broke bread every day from house to house - that did not make it "Sabbath" or "a holy day" set apart by God.

In the NT every single time there is a reference to the Sabbath as a weekly day of worship -- it is always the seventh day. I don't know of a single exception to that.
 
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BobRyan

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Holy is an old English word that means whole or complete, the Church has inserted a religiosity into the word; in the Hebrew I believe what is meant is, set apart, special, elevated in importance.
The same word is translated as Sanctified and also as Holy Gen 2:1-3 and then in Ex 20:11
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Let's ask the Word of God - what day of the week is Sabbath

Ex 20:10 "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Lev 23:3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) in all your dwellings.

IN Acts 2 they broke bread every day from house to house - that did not make it "Sabbath" or "a holy day" set apart by God.

In the NT every single time there is a reference to the Sabbath as a weekly day of worship -- it is always the seventh day. I don't know of a single exception to that.

This won't change your mind, but I think you are in error and only believe that the Sabbath is meant to be on Saturday based on a vision that is not confirmed by the Bible. Hence, the vision is in error since it does not align with the Bible. As such, it is a false teaching.

 
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BobRyan

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Sabbath does not need to be on the last day of the week though.
Let's ask the Word of God - what day of the week is Sabbath

Ex 20:10 "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)"

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Lev 23:3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) in all your dwellings.
There is evidence of this in the Bible where they "broke bread" on Sunday.
IN Acts 2 they broke bread every day from house to house - that did not make it "Sabbath" or "a holy day" set apart by God.

In the NT every single time there is a reference to the Sabbath as a weekly day of worship -- it is always the seventh day. I don't know of a single exception to that.
This won't change your mind, but I think you are in error and only believe that the Sabbath is meant to be on Saturday based on a vision that is not confirmed by the Bible.
And I think every single argument and text above - is "in the Bible" ( so then far from not being confirmed by it).

I also think you did not respond to a single point that the Bible made in the texts above - are you basing your belief on something that is not in the Bible???

Does your belief require that the texts above be dismissed?
Does your belief require that when your statements above are placed in direct contrast to the Bible statements as listed - that the whole thing be dropped?
Hence, the vision is in error since it does not align with the Bible. As such, it is a false teaching.
Which Bible text in my response above are you claiming is "not aligned with the Bible?"
 
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