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BAPTISM

Discussion in 'Sacramental/Ordinance Theology' started by ilovejcsog, Dec 8, 2018.

  1. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Thief on the cross was saved under the Mosaic covenant, not the New. The resurrection had not yet happened.

    So that is not applicable to modern christianity.
     
  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    There is no "Command of Jesus for the Believer to be Baptized."

    The command of Jesus was TO baptize, not to BE baptized. It was addressed to the apostles and evangelists, NOT the new believers.


    Matthew 28:19
    Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
    This was NOT addressed to "them," the new believers.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I don't think the resurrection marked a knife cut division between the old and the new.
    And the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved by the Mosaic covenant.

    Most people don't know that Jesus was baptizing.
    If you are defending baptism as a means of salvation, what do you do with those Jesus was baptizing, obviously before his resurrection.

    John 3:26
    They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

    John 4:1
    Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John—
     
  4. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Why is that?
     
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    I am not defending that.

    It was quite clear under the Mosaic covenant. The same as John's baptism. About 1500 baptismal fonts (called mikvah pools) were around the Temple in Jerusalem.

    (Using current terminology)
    Everyone got baptized before entering the Temple.
    A woman got baptized every month following her period.
    A groom and a bride got baptized before getting married.
    A person who had strayed from Judaism and came back got baptized.

    The latter is what John's and our Lord's baptisms were all about. It was a normal part of Judaism. Still is.

    Why is this stuff NOT being taught in our churches?
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Your right, but it could be taken by the New Believer that he is supposed to be Baptized as the final step because they are coupled together, which was my initial point.....You can't have one without the other.

    It is therefore the responsibility of the one preaching to assure baptism is carried out in order.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thou shalt not steal. (guilty)
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    How did you verify these facts? What is your source?
     
  9. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    I have seen some of the Mikva pools myself. The rest is in the Talmud.
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    My understanding is that they were for ceremonial washing, not baptism.
     
  11. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Baptism is always recommended and should be wanted by the believer but, since the thief on the cross was on his way to Paradise it's hard to say for sure.

    Maybe somebody is in a car crash that is a non-believer and in the ambulance on the way to the hospital are touched by the Holy Spirit and discover that they have faith in Christ. Then upon reaching the ER room they die. As with the thief on the cross these two will be in heaven.

    We are talking about a true conversion here and not just something in man's mind. It is a heart condition.

    M-Bob
     
  12. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    The difference being - what exactly?
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    The law required ceremonial washing, not "baptism".
    Can you find a reference to required baptism in the OT using these founts?
     
  14. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Water Baptism IS a ceremonial washing. Don't manufacture a distinction where there is none.

    We have the ritual recorded in the talmuds.

    The OT requirements are to be dipped (immersed) in mayim chaim, living water. That means water that is not stagnant; capable of supporting life.

    Which means the pools in jerusalem had to be supplied with fresh rain water or fresh stream water frequently.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So, you claim it is baptism, but it is never referred to as baptism in your sources?
    That seems to be your own private interpretation. Am I correct?
     
  16. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    My sources are in Hebrew and Aramaic; "Baptism" is a derivative of the Greek word baptizo.**

    Why would native Hebrew and Aramaic speakers use a Greek term?

    ** According to Dr Derek Prince, the word "baptize" was invented in English by the translators of the King James bible. The greek word meant to immerse, dip, plunge; but the practice of the Church of England was to sprinkle. So the King (to avoid angering the CoE leadership) told the translators just to anglicize the Greek word so that no one would know what it actually meant.
     
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  17. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    While I could take that as an ad hominem attack, I will not.

    The linkage and continuity between the mikvah pools of Temple period Judaism and Christian baptism is common knowledge in Messianic circles.

    If it is NOT common knowledge in your theological circles, then someone is not passing on needed information.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  18. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    mikvah
    or mik·veh
    [Sephardic Hebrew mee-kvah; Ashkenazic Hebrew, English mik-vuh]
    noun, plural mik·voth, mik·vot, mik·vos [Sephardic Hebrew mee-kvawt; Ashkenazic Hebrew mik-vohs;] /Sephardic Hebrew miˈkvɔt; Ashkenazic Hebrew ˈmɪk voʊs;/ English mik·vahs [mik-vuh z] /ˈmɪk vəz/Hebrew.

    A ritual bath to which Orthodox Jews are traditionally required to go on certain occasions, as before the Sabbath and after each menstrual period, to cleanse and purify themselves.

    Close but no prize, there is a marked difference between Baptism, and a Mikveh which is done repeatedly, as a Ritualistic Tradition.

    If what you are saying is true, then why was he not called John the Mikvhehst.
     
  19. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Baptism is not just one of a thousand other Rituals, or Ceremonies the Jews carried out without any true meaning, or just a cleansing of the flesh as Mikvehs are.

    If it is only a Ceremony to Messianic Jews then, it has lost all meaning.

    Here is a verse which I believe says there is a difference, I believe this verse was Peters direct reference to what your attempting to postulate.

    1Pe 3:21
    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Not the invention of a Messianic bias?
     
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