BAPTISM

[JIMINZ]

Do you still believe that baptism is necessary for salvation? Or did you talk yourself out of it?

Salvation is part and parcel of the act of Believing and the act of Baptism, it's not two separate things.

You cannot have one without the other.

1) If you are a Believer, that gives you Forgiveness of sins that are past only.
2) When the Believer becomes Baptized, he passes from Death to life, (That's death in the and of the Flesh) and alive in and of the Spirit...... Born Again.

It's in the combining of these two aspects, which produces our Salvation.

 

[ilovejcsog]

Salvation is part and parcel of the act of Believing and the act of Baptism, it's not two separate things.

You cannot have one without the other.

1) If you are a Believer, that gives you Forgiveness of sins that are past only.
2) When the Believer becomes Baptized, he passes from Death to life, (That's death in the and of the Flesh) and alive in and of the Spirit...... Born Again.

It's in the combining of these two aspects, which produces our Salvation.

This is confusing to me because in my days of going to church and Alter calls where you are asked if Jesus is your savior and repent of your sins, etc, baptizing was never a part of the call to salvation. There was always a special day and service for baptizing. You are saying the two must be done at the same time?

 

[ilovejcsog]

Go easy skippy

 

[JIMINZ]

This is confusing to me because in my days of going to church and Alter calls where you are asked if Jesus is your savior and repent of your sins, etc, baptizing was never a part of the call to salvation. There was always a special day and service for baptizing. You are saying the two must be done at the same time?

The depiction in the Bible is, the Believing, and Baptism were done at the same time, if it can be it should be, but I personally do not believe, Baptism needs to be done right after Believing, but it should be completed as soon as physically possible, I also do not believe it should be put off for the convenience of the Church, where they can Baptize many at the same time.

This is a Spiritual matter which involves the New Believer, it is of the utmost importance to have it accomplished as soon as it can be.

Maybe it should be spoken about a lot more than it is, that way more people would understand the importance of Baptism in the workings of a Believers Salvation altogether.

We have marginalized it to a Tradition, Ritual, Ceremony, Symbol when it is of the utmost importance for the New Believer to fully understand what it is that is taking place, and how they are changing, and just where it is they stand in Jesus Christ from this point on.

 

[JIMINZ]

This is confusing to me because in my days of going to church and Alter calls where you are asked if Jesus is your savior and repent of your sins, etc, baptizing was never a part of the call to salvation. There was always a special day and service for baptizing. You are saying the two must be done at the same time?

It seems to be more important for Churches to get people in the doors (Pews) than it is to get those same people Grounded, and secure in the Faith.

 

[bcbsr]

You said "No, salvation is not by works, be it water baptism or circumcision, but by faith apart from works", and I am telling you other people who believe in faith alone who believe in baptism for the remission of sins.

What does that matter? I'm Berean. My faith is based on scripture, not on Christian sects. So what Christian sect is your faith based upon?

 

[JIMINZ]

Yes

How?

 

[Saint Steven]

Salvation is part and parcel of the act of Believing and the act of Baptism, it's not two separate things.

You cannot have one without the other.

1) If you are a Believer, that gives you Forgiveness of sins that are past only.
2) When the Believer becomes Baptized, he passes from Death to life, (That's death in the and of the Flesh) and alive in and of the Spirit...... Born Again.

It's in the combining of these two aspects, which produces our Salvation.

Do you have biblical support for your theory?
Someone brought up the thief on the cross earlier.
What is your response to that?

 

[Yarddog]

How?

Find mercy at judgment.

 

[SkyWriting]

IIRC, the Lutherans still did infant baptisms. And Luther persecuted the Anabaptists over that issue. Do they now have believer's baptisms?

Yes, in addition.

 

[Danthemailman]

Sounds like Jesus Himself said, NO.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:6-8
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit.

Have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. *Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.

 

[SkyWriting]

The depiction in the Bible is, the Believing, and Baptism were done at the same time, if it can be it should be, but I personally do not believe, Baptism needs to be done right after Believing, but it should be completed as soon as physically possible, I also do not believe it should be put off for the convenience of the Church, where they can Baptize many at the same time.

This is a Spiritual matter which involves the New Believer, it is of the utmost importance to have it accomplished as soon as it can be.

Maybe it should be spoken about a lot more than it is, that way more people would understand the importance of Baptism in the workings of a Believers Salvation altogether.

We have marginalized it to a Tradition, Ritual, Ceremony, Symbol when it is of the utmost importance for the New Believer to fully understand what it is that is taking place, and how they are changing, and just where it is they stand in Jesus Christ from this point on.

I can imagine John in the wilderness today, teaching about God and Jesus yet to come, and flocks of people not having any knowledge of what we know, listening to what he says and deciding to follow John and get baptized.

Then waking up the next day after being baptised and saying "What was all that about?" and leaving the Jesus cult called "The Way!" and returning to their lives.

This would be why the issue of "Works" comes up in scripture.

Not becuase God requires any works, but because people get caught up in the experience and joined the Jesus cult for social reasons, and got baptized with their friends. They heard this group religion still drinks wine!

So then, the leaders said....."We need to watch for the real believers, so watch what they DO", becasue the ones who joined looking for a party still go out drinking every night.

SO the call to watch for works is not God's requirement. It's just a way of identifying the socialites. I know our church youth group was WAY larger than the baptized youth. Perhaps twice as many non-members attending.

Watching for works of the Spirit is a way to see a "Real Christian" but works are not a requirement. But you should see some changes in a believer becasue they are thinking of others and not just themselves anymore.

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.

 

[ilovejcsog]

I think I have my answer, thank you all. It is a wonder how there can be so many different opinions all based on the word. All seem scripturally correct. Oddly google wouldn't accept the spelling of scripturally?
HAPPY SABBATH!

 

[mama2one]

I think I have my answer, thank you all.

will you share; have you decided to get baptized or not?

 

[JIMINZ]

I can imagine John in the wilderness today, teaching about God and Jesus yet to come, and flocks of people not having any knowledge of what we know, listening to what he says and deciding to follow John and get baptized.

Then waking up the next day after being baptised and saying "What was all that about?" and leaving the Jesus cult called "The Way!" and returning to their lives.

This would be why the issue of "Works" comes up in scripture.

Not becuase God requires any works, but because people get caught up in the experience and joined the Jesus cult for social reasons, and got baptized with their friends. They heard this group religion still drinks wine!

So then, the leaders said....."We need to watch for the real believers, so watch what they DO", becasue the ones who joined looking for a party still go out drinking every night.

SO the call to watch for works is not God's requirement. It's just a way of identifying the socialites. I know our church youth group was WAY larger than the baptized youth. Perhaps twice as many non-members attending.

Watching for works of the Spirit is a way to see a "Real Christian" but works are not a requirement. But you should see some changes in a believer becasue they are thinking of others and not just themselves anymore.

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.

I couldn't agree more, I think, maybe.

 

[ilovejcsog]

i

will you share; have you decided to get baptized or not?

I have always wanted to get baptized but it isn't possible and so I am going to accept that it will not keep me from going to heaven which was my concern. Thanks to all of you for that answer.

 

[JIMINZ]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit.

Have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. *Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.

Sounds very confusing, when you get it all worked out, let me know.

 

[Hazelelponi]

i
I have always wanted to get baptized but it isn't possible and so I am going to accept that it will not keep me from going to heaven which was my concern. Thanks to all of you for that answer.

Why isn't it possible?

You know if at all possible you need to be, and if there is a physical bar to being immersed they can do other things than immersion..

 

[JIMINZ]

Do you have biblical support for your theory?

Does a BELIEVER become Born Again, upon his Believing?

Does a BELIEVER die to the Flesh, upon his Believing?

What then is the purpose of Baptism, Jesus did say "and is Baptized" thereby coupling both Believing and Baptism together.

The fact both are coupled together, shows the need for the Believer to be Baptized for Salvation to be accomplished (completed).

1 Pet. 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Rev. 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


The Greek rendition of the verse says.

Mark 16:16
THE one - BELIEVing (one believing) AND BEING DIPizED (being Baptized) SHALL- BE - BEING - SAVED THE YET one - UN-BELIEVING
(one -disbelieving) SHALL - BE - DOWN - JUDGED (shall - be - being - condemned)

Therefore there is no Baptism for the Un - Believer, it would be a waste of time, he must first Believe, therefore he is Condemned (Damned).

Someone brought up the thief on the cross earlier.
What is your response to that?

People always come up with that one, as though it had some great Spiritual value to it.

This verse, in and of itself does not negate the Command of Jesus for the Believer to be Baptized.

As far as God is concerned, He has the right to intervene in the affairs of man, therefore it would appear, there can be acceptations to every rule.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Not David]

What does that matter? I'm Berean. My faith is based on scripture, not on Christian sects. So what Christian sect is your faith based upon?

The Church Jesus Christ founded.