BAPTISM

[Sabertooth]

I know but I am saying that "baptism for the remission of sins" is believed by Sola Fide folks too.

IIRC, the Lutherans still did infant baptisms. And Luther persecuted the Anabaptists over that issue. Do they now have believer's baptisms?

 

[harko]

I would have loved to have been baptized but have not had the opportunity. Thus the question.

You still can!!

 

[mama2one]

I would have loved to have been baptized but have not had the opportunity. Thus the question.

I started a thread on baptism with many replies
you might be interested in reading:

baptism

 

[bcbsr]

I know but I am saying that "baptism for the remission of sins" is believed by Sola Fide folks too.

So? And by the way "for the remission of sins" can have different meanings.

 

[ilovejcsog]

I started a thread on baptism with many replies
you might be interested in reading:

baptism

thank you

 

[Saint Steven]

Sounds like Jesus Himself said, NO.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:6-8
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Nothing about "he that is baptized not" being damned. Only "believeth not".

 

[Saint Steven]

Baptism is for the remission of sins, but I believe in baptism of desire too. God can work outside the Mysteries.

That's an unbiblical doctrine as I understand it.
Are you basing that on Acts chapter two?
Probably the Nicene Creed.

 

[JIMINZ]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Nothing about "he that is baptized not" being damned. Only "believeth not".

The fact that Believing was coupled with Baptism in Jesus statement, He didn't make a separate statement about Baptism, as though it was another thing, (no) it's all to be done at the same time, as with the example in the Bible.

But someone who does not believe would never be Baptized in the first place.
The one Baptism naturally follows the first Believing.

You don't have one without the other.

Mat. 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[Saint Steven]

The fact Believing was coupled with Baptism in Jesus statement, but someone who does not believe would never be Baptized in the first place.
The one Baptism naturally follows the first Believing.

You don't have one without the other.

Mat. 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

So, you are claiming that there is no salvation without baptism?

 

[Not David]

IIRC, the Lutherans still did infant baptisms. And Luther persecuted the Anabaptists over that issue. Do they now have believer's baptisms?

They still baptize babies.

 

[Not David]

That's an unbiblical doctrine as I understand it.
Are you basing that on Acts chapter two?
Probably the Nicene Creed.

Says it is unbiblical and mentions the verse which includes it.

 

[Not David]

So? And by the way "for the remission of sins" can have different meanings.

You said "No, salvation is not by works, be it water baptism or circumcision, but by faith apart from works", and I am telling you other people who believe in faith alone who believe in baptism for the remission of sins.

 

[JIMINZ]

So, you are claiming that there is no salvation without baptism?

Let me put it this way.

A Non Believer becomes a Believer, but if that same Believer does not become Baptized, there will come a time when, that Believer becomes a Non Believer once again.

Therefore a Believer without Baptism and their receiving of the Holy Spirit, and their Regeneration unto Newness of life, remain in the same condition Spiritually as a Non Believer is, only they have Forgiveness of sins that are past, but without the Holy Spirit in their lives will fall back into sin as before.

So is there Salvation without Baptism?

I would say, without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, ie Becoming Born Again of the Spirit during Baptism, and becoming Regenerated unto Newness of Life by the Spirit, .......No.

 

[Saint Steven]

Says it is unbiblical and mentions the verse which includes it.

We have been over this before.
One more time, with feeling...

"... be baptized... for the forgiveness of your sins." leaves out the "Repent and..." part.
It doesn't say baptism is for the forgiveness of sin. It says, "Repent and be baptized..."

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Yarddog]

Can we get to heaven if we aren't baptized?

Yes

 

[Saint Steven]

Let me put it this way.

A Non Believer becomes a Believer, but if that same Believer does not become Baptized, there will come a time when, that Believer becomes a Non Believer once again.

Therefore a Believer without Baptism and their receiving of the Holy Spirit, and their Regeneration unto Newness of life, remain in the same condition Spiritually as a Non Believer is, only they have Forgiveness of sins that are past, but without the Holy Spirit in their lives will fall back into sin as before.

So is there Salvation without Baptism?

I would say, without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, ie Becoming Born Again of the Spirit during Baptism, and becoming Regenerated unto Newness of Life by the Spirit, .......No.

Water baptism is a ceremony.
A ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality, nothing more.
The power is in the inward reality, not in the outward sign.
We receive the Holy Spirit as a result of our putting our trust in the saving power of Christ. Baptism is an outward sign that we have decided to follow Jesus and be a part of his church. A public testimony.

I believe a person can have the inward reality without the outward ceremony and still be saved. Because we are not saved by the outward ceremony of baptism, but rather the inward reality of our relationship with Christ.

 

[JIMINZ]

Water baptism is a ceremony.
A ceremony is an outward sign of an inward reality, nothing more.
The power is in the inward reality, not in the outward sign.
We receive the Holy Spirit as a result of our putting our trust in the saving power of Christ. Baptism is an outward sign that we have decided to follow Jesus and be a part of his church. A public testimony.

I believe a person can have the inward reality without the outward ceremony and still be saved. Because we are not saved by the outward ceremony of baptism, but rather the inward reality of our relationship with Christ.

This inward reality you speak of is not Ceremony, it is in fact OUR Reality.
We who were dead in our Flesh and sins have become alive by the Holy Spirit of God, through Baptism.

Are you not Crucified with Christ into His Death, are you not Resurrected unto Newness of life in Christ through His Resurrection.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom 6:10,11
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not Ceremony, no, it's a Spiritual Reality that we have become alive unto God through Baptism, God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.

This Newness of life is a Spiritual life in Christ, where we are Born Again, Regenerated unto Newness of life in the Spirit.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If we believe that the New Birth Baptism is only Ceremony, then we cheapen the process by which God Regenerates Believers unto Himself, we are not Reconciled unto God by Ceremony, but by the Reality of a Death (Repentance) unto sin and our Flesh through Baptism, unto Newness of life in the Spirit.

Col. 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

We (Receive) Jesus In Belief, but we can only (Walk) in Him through Baptism.

 

[Saint Steven]

This inward reality you speak of is not Ceremony, it is in fact OUR Reality.
We who were dead in our Flesh and sins have become alive by the Holy Spirit of God, through Baptism.

Are you not Crucified with Christ into His Death, are you not Resurrected unto Newness of life in Christ through His Resurrection.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom 6:10,11
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not Ceremony, no, it's a Spiritual Reality that we have become alive unto God through Baptism, God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.

This Newness of life is a Spiritual life in Christ, where we are Born Again, Regenerated unto Newness of life in the Spirit.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If we believe that the New Birth Baptism is only Ceremony, then we cheapen the process by which God Regenerates Believers unto Himself, we are not Reconciled unto God by Ceremony, but by the Reality of a Death (Repentance) unto sin and our Flesh through Baptism, unto Newness of life in the Spirit.

Col. 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

We (Receive) Jesus In Belief, but we can only (Walk) in Him through Baptism.

I was agreeing with that, not disagreeing. (for the most part)

 

[JIMINZ]

I was agreeing with that, not disagreeing. (for the most part)

Clarifying my position....Thanks

 

[Saint Steven]

Clarifying my position....Thanks

Do you still believe that baptism is necessary for salvation? Or did you talk yourself out of it?