Baptism

[jacobs well]

Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?
And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?
Who can qualify to be baptized? What does the Bible have to say about all this?

 

[Kirsten]

Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?
And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?
Who can qualify to be baptized? What does the Bible have to say about all this?

Baptism does not save anyone. For a non-believer, baptism is meaningless. For a believer, it is expressing what is already believed. If baptism saved people, we could just baptize everyone and everyone would be saved. The manner of baptism is irrelevant as it is simply and expression of dying with Christ and rising with him in a new life.

 

[Jonathan Hodgson]

I agree with Kirsten that baptism is a symbol - an outward sign of an inward change. Baptism does not save us. I also believe that the bible talks about baptism by immersion. Lastly, I think that baptism should be carried out on adults (or people who are aware of what is going on and what is happening). I will look at all these points in more detail below. I am currently having this very debate with people close to me so have been doing a lot of research into it and will provide links below to additional reading that you might be interested in.

First - and most importantly - baptism does not save you. Look at arguably the most famous passage in the bible.

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

(John 3:16-18 ESV)
Notice "whoever believes is not condemned" - It doesn't say whoever believes is not condemned if they have been baptised.
Another important passage for this debate is from EPHESIANS 2:8-10.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

.
Notice that we are clearly told that we are saved through faith - not as a result of "works"

There are many, many more verses that back this up. I found this after a quick google search.

There are arguments that seem to argue the opposite - that baptism is necessary for salvation. Look at Acts 2:38 for example.

38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(ESV). Without going into too much detail - looking at the Greek we find that it is nothing more than a poor translation. Look here for a better explanation. I do however think that you should be baptised. I believe it to be an important step of obedience and if somebody chose not to be baptised I would question whether they had given their life to Jesus and as a result whether they were saved. This doesn't mean however that baptism is what saves them. The last point I will make on this is the prisoner on the cross next to Jesus.

39One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

(Luke 23:39-43 ESV)
Every scholar I have read work from, spoken to or heard about agrees that the prisoner was almost certainly not baptised although Jesus promised that he would be with him in paradise. Some people argue that this was the Old Covenant but that wouldn't make sense on two accounts. Firstly, in old law sacrifices are needed to pardon people and secondly Jesus died on the cross BEFORE the two next to him.

31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.
32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

(John 19:31-34 ESV)

Secondly - regarding immersion - I think that where possible baptism should be by immersion. The word baptise comes from the Greek "baptizen" which means to submerge or to drench. To re-iterate - I don't think that Baptism saves you so if you have been baptised for the right reasons (I'll get onto that later) but not by immersion I don't think that you will be going to hell. I do believe that baptism in the New Testament was by immersion. I think most branches of Christianity would agree that following the NT is what we should be trying to do.

Thirdly - if baptism doesn't save you and it is a sign of turning around (that is literally what repent means), then what use is there in baptising infants (or anyone else who is not capable of giving their life to Jesus and his kingdom)? There are no biblical accounts of infants being baptised. Baptism requires belief in Jesus so people who cannot believe or do not believe cannot be baptised (not in the biblical sense anyway)

36And as they passed along the way, they came on some water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?37 Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, it is lawful. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.

(Acts 8:36-38)

I hope that I haven't mis-quoted, or misused any biblical passages and I'm sure that if I have then I will be picked up later on. This is a controversial topic and an important one. The best advice I can give is look at as many arguments on both sides as possible, speak to as many people as possible, ask questions, read your bible and pray for help with understanding. God Bless!

 

[jacobs well]

Baptism does not save anyone. For a non-believer, baptism is meaningless. For a believer, it is expressing what is already believed. If baptism saved people, we could just baptize everyone and everyone would be saved. The manner of baptism is irrelevant as it is simply and expression of dying with Christ and rising with him in a new life.

Baptism, as it turns out, is a basic requirement for salvation - Mark 16:16 - " He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved ". Baptism, which is commanded in scripture, must be preceded by belief and repentance.
Baptism is part of the process by which we receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Belief, repentance and baptism are not works.
I believe the manner of immersion is more symbolic or relevant than say sprinkling or pouring. Immersion represents the cleansing from our past sins- Acts 22:16.
God has set as one of his conditions in order to be saved, the act of baptism.
i agree it does symbolize the old sinful way of life to be put to death, and be buried, and our rising from the water symbolizes our beginning to walk in newness of life.

 

[Kirsten]

Baptism, as it turns out, is a basic requirement for salvation - Mark 16:16 - " He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved ". Baptism, which is commanded in scripture, must be preceded by belief and repentance.
Baptism is part of the process by which we receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Belief, repentance and baptism are not works.
I believe the manner of immersion is more symbolic or relevant than say sprinkling or pouring. Immersion represents the cleansing from our past sins- Acts 22:16.
God has set as one of his conditions in order to be saved, the act of baptism.
i agree it does symbolize the old sinful way of life to be put to death, and be buried, and our rising from the water symbolizes our beginning to walk in newness of life.

Baptism proceeds repentance and faith, not precedes, as evidenced by Paul preaching repentance and then baptizing people who believe. Water baptism has nothing to do with water, actually. The act of immersing someone in water has no spiritual affect. If it did, we could simply baptize everyone in the world and everyone would be saved. We know that is not possible, because without faith, nobody can be saved. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that causes someone to become alive to God in Christ. Without repentance and faith, baptism is just a bath. With repentance and faith, baptism represents a believer dying in Christ and being resurrected with Him into a new life. This passage explains the meaning of baptism:

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[jacobs well]

I agree with Kirsten that baptism is a symbol - an outward sign of an inward change. Baptism does not save us. I also believe that the bible talks about baptism by immersion. Lastly, I think that baptism should be carried out on adults (or people who are aware of what is going on and what is happening). I will look at all these points in more detail below. I am currently having this very debate with people close to me so have been doing a lot of research into it and will provide links below to additional reading that you might be interested in.

First - and most importantly - baptism does not save you. Look at arguably the most famous passage in the bible.
(John 3:16-18 ESV)
Notice "whoever believes is not condemned" - It doesn't say whoever believes is not condemned if they have been baptised.
Another important passage for this debate is from EPHESIANS 2:8-10.
.
Notice that we are clearly told that we are saved through faith - not as a result of "works"

There are many, many more verses that back this up. I found this after a quick google search.

There are arguments that seem to argue the opposite - that baptism is necessary for salvation. Look at Acts 2:38 for example. (ESV). Without going into too much detail - looking at the Greek we find that it is nothing more than a poor translation. Look here for a better explanation. I do however think that you should be baptised. I believe it to be an important step of obedience and if somebody chose not to be baptised I would question whether they had given their life to Jesus and as a result whether they were saved. This doesn't mean however that baptism is what saves them. The last point I will make on this is the prisoner on the cross next to Jesus.
(Luke 23:39-43 ESV)
Every scholar I have read work from, spoken to or heard about agrees that the prisoner was almost certainly not baptised although Jesus promised that he would be with him in paradise. Some people argue that this was the Old Covenant but that wouldn't make sense on two accounts. Firstly, in old law sacrifices are needed to pardon people and secondly Jesus died on the cross BEFORE the two next to him.
(John 19:31-34 ESV)

Secondly - regarding immersion - I think that where possible baptism should be by immersion. The word baptise comes from the Greek "baptizen" which means to submerge or to drench. To re-iterate - I don't think that Baptism saves you so if you have been baptised for the right reasons (I'll get onto that later) but not by immersion I don't think that you will be going to hell. I do believe that baptism in the New Testament was by immersion. I think most branches of Christianity would agree that following the NT is what we should be trying to do.

Thirdly - if baptism doesn't save you and it is a sign of turning around (that is literally what repent means), then what use is there in baptising infants (or anyone else who is not capable of giving their life to Jesus and his kingdom)? There are no biblical accounts of infants being baptised. Baptism requires belief in Jesus so people who cannot believe or do not believe cannot be baptised (not in the biblical sense anyway)

(Acts 8:36-38)

I hope that I haven't mis-quoted, or misused any biblical passages and I'm sure that if I have then I will be picked up later on. This is a controversial topic and an important one. The best advice I can give is look at as many arguments on both sides as possible, speak to as many people as possible, ask questions, read your bible and pray for help with understanding. God Bless!

Jesus would be the only authority about baptism, wouldn't you say.
He, by being baptized, set the example for us to follow.
In Matt 28:19-20, Christ commanded baptism. it was his final commission for preaching the Gospel of this age.
Acts 10;46-48 shows the apostles commanding baptism.
water baptism is a required condition to receiving the Holy Spirit-faith and repentance are prerequisites before baptism- acts 8:14-17, 19:1-6
" Repent, and be baptized " and then " you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Although God on very rare occasions could make an exception like the thief on the cross because of obvious circumstances. But the rule, the command for those that are able is baptism by water.
baptism on its own does not save us-it is commanded for the remission of sins, even though it is only symbolic.
baptism is an essential part of the course of conversion and salvation.

 

[Kirsten]

Jesus would be the only authority about baptism, wouldn't you say.
He, by being baptized, set the example for us to follow.
In Matt 28:19-20, Christ commanded baptism. it was his final commission for preaching the Gospel of this age.
Acts 10;46-48 shows the apostles commanding baptism.
water baptism is a required condition to receiving the Holy Spirit-faith and repentance are prerequisites before baptism- acts 8:14-17, 19:1-6
" Repent, and be baptized " and then " you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Although God on very rare occasions could make an exception like the thief on the cross because of obvious circumstances. But the rule, the command for those that are able is baptism by water.
baptism on its own does not save us-it is commanded for the remission of sins, even though it is only symbolic.
baptism is an essential part of the course of conversion and salvation.

You needn't worry, all Christians are baptized. Not all people who are baptized, especially as infants, are saved or ever will be. You would err in believing so and the evidence is overwhelming, frankly. I grew up Catholic and out of seven siblings, only two are true believers. We were all baptized as infants. After I was saved, I was baptized as an adult. I posted a very clear passage that explains baptism to you. I hope you take it seriously.

 

[Albion]

Jesus would be the only authority about baptism, wouldn't you say.
He, by being baptized, set the example for us to follow.
In Matt 28:19-20, Christ commanded baptism. it was his final commission for preaching the Gospel of this age.
Acts 10;46-48 shows the apostles commanding baptism.
water baptism is a required condition to receiving the Holy Spirit-faith and repentance are prerequisites before baptism- acts 8:14-17, 19:1-6
" Repent, and be baptized " and then " you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Although God on very rare occasions could make an exception like the thief on the cross because of obvious circumstances. But the rule, the command for those that are able is baptism by water.
baptism on its own does not save us-it is commanded for the remission of sins, even though it is only symbolic.
baptism is an essential part of the course of conversion and salvation.

A very nice overview of the issues involved with Baptism IMO.

 

[Kirsten]

A very nice overview of the issues involved with Baptism IMO.

Only if you ignore the rest of Scripture. Do you believe you can baptize an infant and they will be saved even if they never believe?

 

[Kirsten]

Jesus would be the only authority about baptism, wouldn't you say.
He, by being baptized, set the example for us to follow.
In Matt 28:19-20, Christ commanded baptism. it was his final commission for preaching the Gospel of this age.
Acts 10;46-48 shows the apostles commanding baptism.
water baptism is a required condition to receiving the Holy Spirit-faith and repentance are prerequisites before baptism- acts 8:14-17, 19:1-6
" Repent, and be baptized " and then " you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Although God on very rare occasions could make an exception like the thief on the cross because of obvious circumstances. But the rule, the command for those that are able is baptism by water.
baptism on its own does not save us-it is commanded for the remission of sins, even though it is only symbolic.
baptism is an essential part of the course of conversion and salvation.

If you cherry pick passages and ignore the whole of Scripture, you might also believe you are literally eating Jesus if you take communion.

 

[Albion]

Only if you ignore the rest of Scripture.

I don't think so. The rest of Scripture matter, to be sure, but nothing in it conflicts with what you just read.

Do you believe you can baptize an infant and they will be saved even if they never believe?

No! But neither do I know any Christian--or know of any Christian denomination--that teaches that you can. It's something like a religious "old wives' tale," apparently.

 

[Kirsten]

I don't think so. The rest of Scripture matter, to be sure, but nothing in it conflicts with what you just read.


No! But neither do I know any Christian--or know of any Christian denomination--that teaches that you can. It's something like a religious "old wives' tale," apparently.

Catholicism is a perfect example of a religion that teaches if you are baptized into the Catholic church, you will go to heaven, regardless.

 

[Albion]

Catholicism is a perfect example of a religion that teaches if you are baptized into the Catholic church, you will go to heaven, regardless.

No, the Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach that. (Far from it, in fact.)

 

[Kirsten]

No, the Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach that. (Far from it, in fact.)

I grew up in the Catholic church and attended a Catholic school for eight years. In fact, it does teach that. The "bad" Catholic would simply spend more time in purgatory. It's all hooey.

 

[Albion]

I grew up in the Catholic church and attended a Catholic school for eight years.

I've got you beat there and you're still mistaken about the church's view concerning Baptism.

The "bad" Catholic would simply spend more time in purgatory. It's all hooey.

I agree that Purgatory is hooey, not so the rest of this.

The belief is that a bad Catholic is just as likely to go to hell, not purgatory, as is the next person. Hitler was baptized as a Catholic, you know, and I challenge you to find any document or clergyman who will tell you that he is in heaven or heaven-bound because of that fact.

 

[Job8]

Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?
And if so, should that ordinance be carried out by complete immersion in water only?
Who can qualify to be baptized? What does the Bible have to say about all this?

The short answer is "No". Only those who are saved must be baptized and that by immersion. Mk 16:16 is a good place to start, but it should be interpreted in light of the whole New Testament.

 

[Job8]

Catholicism is a perfect example of a religion that teaches if you are baptized into the Catholic church, you will go to heaven, regardless.

Pretty close. But first come the Sacraments, then comes Purgatory, then come prayers for the dead, etc. There is no end to the requirements, and if you fail to acknowledge Mother Church and Mary, woe be unto you.

 

[Albion]

Pretty close. But first come the Sacraments, then comes Purgatory, then come prayers for the dead, etc. There is no end to the requirements, and if you fail to acknowledge Mother Church and Mary, woe be unto you.

But to be clear, there is nothing keeping a Catholic from passing away with mortal sin on his soul...and going to hell. So that's the counter to the mistaken idea that, if baptised, you're guaranteed salvation (albeit after a stay in Purgatory, as the theory goes).

 

[jacobs well]

Baptism proceeds repentance and faith, not precedes, as evidenced by Paul preaching repentance and then baptizing people who believe. Water baptism has nothing to do with water, actually. The act of immersing someone in water has no spiritual affect. If it did, we could simply baptize everyone in the world and everyone would be saved. We know that is not possible, because without faith, nobody can be saved. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that causes someone to become alive to God in Christ. Without repentance and faith, baptism is just a bath. With repentance and faith, baptism represents a believer dying in Christ and being resurrected with Him into a new life. This passage explains the meaning of baptism:

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

To be clearer on this, the sequence has been shown as faith or belief, repentance, baptism, and then the laying on of hands-that gets you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit until the laying of hands after the baptism. Baptism on its own is not enough to save you.
The symbolic burial of our old ways and the resurrected newness of life we emerge into.
Baptism is the symbolic door to righteousness. You must go through that door if you are going to enter into eternal life-there is no other way.

 

[Jonathan Hodgson]

Baptism, as it turns out, is a basic requirement for salvation - Mark 16:16 - " He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved ". Baptism, which is commanded in scripture, must be preceded by belief and repentance.
Baptism is part of the process by which we receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Belief, repentance and baptism are not works.
I believe the manner of immersion is more symbolic or relevant than say sprinkling or pouring. Immersion represents the cleansing from our past sins- Acts 22:16.
God has set as one of his conditions in order to be saved, the act of baptism.
i agree it does symbolize the old sinful way of life to be put to death, and be buried, and our rising from the water symbolizes our beginning to walk in newness of life.

Lets look more closely at Mark 16:16 - all of it though

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

(Mark 16:16 ESV)

It says that if you believe and are baptised you will be saved. This is correct. It does not say, however, that either is a requirement, for that we must look else where. The remainder of the verse is interesting as well. It says that if you do not believe you will be condemned. No mention of baptism. To see what is required for salvation, look at Acts when the Philippian Jailer asks Paul and Saul directly.

30Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,[...]

(Acts 16:30-31)